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Constructive approach

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  • We all need to stop trying to help them. It's such a waste of our time. Such a waste.

    I disagree with this. There is frustration for alot of users. No question. I am one of these users. If we don't try to have well thought out critiques though we will never have a positive effect on the game.

    I think it is lousy that GC's may have more of an effect on the game. Not an EA fanboy or anything. But can we not at least try to have an accommodation here?

    Bro even the GC's crap on this game and say things need to be fixed and guess what, they're still not fixed. I've been posting for the past 8 years great ideas and videos on how to improve and balance the game, lots of people agree with the posts. Guess what? Nothing changes.

    People say shooting is too accurate, skating is too arcadey, interceptions don't work, etc. It seems as if they intentionally go against the posts that garner the most likes. You go on twitter, everybody says the same thing. You go on reddit, same thing.

    They aren't gonna change.

    At least last year they said they'd look into it. Why did this patch take them months to come out and they still didn't even fix what was requested? Since before the game even came out they knew this info! Before it. Even. Came. Out.
  • Socair
    2814 posts Game Changer
    Let’s not let this derail into another rant thread please. No need to tell people to stop being constructive Hood.
  • Come on folks. Air your grievances but be constructive and detailed. Sure maybe nothing changes but it can lead to a way back to a more engaging dialogue between us and the people who make the game.
  • D19Box
    109 posts Member
    edited December 2020
    I would say there are 3 main things that have been the major reason EA's NHL series has fallen into the state it's in, or perceived to be in:

    1) HUT
    2) Lack Of Innovation (thanks to HUT and GC's/Streamers who promote it)
    3) Lack of user control, game immersion and customization

    1) Once HUT became the focus for the NHL series it was doomed. There are so many ethical and legal things about it that I can't type here without getting deleted even though they are fair and constructive truths, so I won't, but once that microtransaction pandoras box opened and people willingly forked over cash it was game over for everything else. Since day one I've refused to participate because it's blatantly obvious what it's done to the series. Especially general innovation. Immediately HUT created very little need for the series shot callers to truly listen to the requests from the community (roster share, GMC, more customization, etc) and truly grow because cash became king over the core game.

    2) Since the decision to go "HUT or die" killed the core foundation of what made the game great, it's damaged the community. Especially for EASHLers and Franchise guys (I'm both) who were the original player base of the original modes that once made NHL the best sports game on the planet. Now every year new gameplay is more a patch, the foundation modes get neglected or just a thin coat of cheap paint no one wanted, people feel unheard, nothing really advances the gameplay... but we have new packs! Add in people like Nasher (who seems like a fantastic guy by the way) and other "influential" NHL streamers and GC's STILL promoting HUT yet in the same breath STILL having major problems with the game play but not realizing (or publicly admitting) HUT is the root of the problem. It's just frustrating to see year after year, no one with a major voice stepping up and admitting the real problem is the very thing they constantly jam down or throats for years now.

    3) The trickle down effect of all of this is the lack of innovation creates the lack of control and immersion people want to feel in EVERY single other mode that built the core of the game. We're stuck playing through the most antiquated, worst, slow menu, slow server (if you can connect) layout of ANY video game. Seven years into XB1/PS4 and gameplay is still way too heavy animation based and not developed into anything like a more true physics based game. We still can't customize our EASHL character anymore. Can't import a logo or face scan. Can't save custom lines, only "best lines" the game deems. Can't have custom music. Can't roster share. Can't GMC. Can't cancel a heavy shot animation. Can't open all bags at once and get it over with. "John" isn't even a create-a-player PxP name option. Likenesses and equipment are years out of date or wrong. If you call for pass from AI teammates or goalies, be it a dumb pass call or not, the AI literally may choose NOT to pass to the human who paid money to own and play the game how they want. It's like we're not allowed to control anything or create our own experience with the game. And back in the day EASHL lobbies was a great way to meet people. I met a lot of cool people. It was FUN. It was SOCIAL. (I've owned and played every NHL since it came out in '92). HUT priority and mentality killed that.

    I could list so many more of these. Instead I'll just ask you to go look at MLB The Show or the recent NBA 2k on your own for the difference in gamer immersion, customization options, and gameplay feel in their core modes. That in turn keeps them prioritizing basic gameplay. They do everything they can to allow the user to create their own (non HUT based modes) experience utilizing quick, intuitive streamlined menus that load. NHL is the complete opposite.

    With all that being said, I don't blame the devs. I don't believe they get to call those shots. The suits and the suits above other suits are the ones who decide "HUT or die" at all costs. I think the devs probably love and want to create and innovate and want the latitude other sports titles have to be creative, or even want to literally copy other standard features in games like The Show yet they aren't given the green light to do so. Because yearly almost every core mode enhancement or feature requested by the vast majority of NHL gamers, be it here or Twitter or reddit, goes ignored. Now 10+ years into EASHL, or even Franchise gamers, they either grew out of gaming as much as time went on or many gave up on not being heard while watching other sports titles lap NHL.

    Lastly, I think the vast majority of people who "toxicly" complain all the time aren't really as good at this game as they think. Yes the game has major flaws I stated above. But I'm a former button mashing Sega NHLPA 92 guy. Skill stick was out for years before I even knew how to use it. Now I'm good at the game. It took a long time and I had to really learn what good players did and what I was doing wrong. An honest look at my play and ability changed my game immensely. Now I can snipe, pass great, and defend really well. I don't worry about cross crease because I can defend it now. And for all the "it went right through" me's, watch Bergeron's OT winner against Carolina this past playoffs. Pastrnak literally passes it right through the D-man who's in "perfect" position. It's a textbook EA NHL goal that happens more in real life than we all want to realize. It's not always fun when it happens but that's what "play next game" is for, lol.

    Sorry that was so long winded. I STILL enjoy this game in flashes mainly because I still have fun with my buddies I die laughing with, while drinking beers playing EASHL to be social. Video games don't mean more than that to me. It's entertainment like a movie. And I think devs do a solid job coming from my mindset that I believe they have to work with one hand tied behind their back because of top down "packs priority". But until HUT isn't prioritized, and GC's and streamers help change that focus, this is what we're going to get for a game and it'll probably only get worse.
    Visit my NHL/Bruins blog: BostonPucks.com
  • nyi95
    180 posts Member
    D19Box, couldn't have put it any better myself. This right here is dead on.
  • IceLion68 wrote: »
    I appreciate that time it takes time for changes/requests to be evaluated, for decisions to be made and for things to be implemented. I also sympathize that it is a thankless job being on here listening to all the vitriol.

    The underlying issue here - for me at least - is not that people's individual demands are being met in a what they deem to be a timely fashion, but that the *philosophy of the game itself* continues year on year to move further away from what most of us want from a hockey game... the dwindling online community seems to be a testament to this.

    Would you agree that having more customization options for the users - slider share/roster share/strategy share/create play share/player share/logo share would help?
    I only play CHEL so no, this would not help CHEL.

    Cross play would help at least boost the user community size, but at this point I feel like even this would be a band-aid solution. I feel like the company/team is devoting too much attention to shiny new modes and aesthetic things and too little attention to how the game plays: from the infrastructure - which even the influencers are currently complaining about - to decisions about balance.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68
    1624 posts Member
    edited December 2020
    D19Box wrote: »
    I would say there are 3 main things that have been the major reason EA's NHL series has fallen into the state it's in, or perceived to be in:

    1) HUT
    2) Lack Of Innovation (thanks to HUT and GC's/Streamers who promote it)
    3) Lack of user control, game immersion and customization

    <snip>

    I personally don't think that lack of customization is hurting this game - this is arguably the most customizable the game has ever been - in some ways. Though admittedly perhaps not in ways that matter much.

    BUT

    I consider myself pretty articulate and you have communicated perhaps better than I could have myself how I feel about the current state of the game and how it got here. In NHL 2014 I had a big club with my online buddies. Fast forward to now, pretty much none of those people even play this game anymore. Like you, this was as much a social thing for me as playing hockey, and the whole franchise has pretty much torpedoed that experience.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • johnny2fingaz
    322 posts Member
    edited December 2020
    belair_col wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    It's a well reasoned list of things that would for sure make this game even more tight.

    Would surprise me if stuff like this isn't on their 'wish-list'. Hopefully we se some of this when we move in to next-gen.

    I really hope you are right. I am hoping that the next gen brings some of the greatness this game once had back. I dont know how you do it but I love your positivity Mega. I also hope people add to this - in a healthy way - to further reinforce the need for more customization options - better gameplay - and a better product.

    I think we 'all' can do a better job together if we try to stay positive. If we think that the developers are one of us, instead of against us. We are all on the same boat here, but with alot of diffrent preferences of whats good and whats bad.

    But I like what you sayin, and im defenetly behind you on this.

    This is important for people to understand though - when people spend earned money on a product they think is lackluster and this doesnt get resolved in a timely manner (while being told the customer is always right and their satisfaction drives success) then frustration builds. Some things have been plaguing this game for 7 years now and we have seen very little movement. Offline players feel like they are neglected. There are many more EA responses on HUT threads which gives the picture that is their priority.

    It is not easy for a lot of people to hold back that emotion especially when they come to a place like this.

    I would like it if we had a gigantic gripe thread where people do less debating and more pleading their case. Some of us have good ideas and some do not.

    Again though it is madness for a multi billion dollar company to be able to get away with what it does and give its customers the cold shoulder.

    But I do like your positive and hopeful tone. I am jealous honestly. I have had this game since 95 and my excitement and hope for this game continues to go down. I do not want to dislike it. Hockey is my fav

    We limit ourselves to what we respond to these days. We used to get involved in gameplay discussions, but there's almost always some sort of backlash so we've backed out of those conversations and are trying to just listen to feedback and make sure it gets seen. There are times we try to debunk assumptions and false claims, but that doesn't go well either. The HUT discussions have mainly centered around the DDA debate. Which we're also limiting our interaction on. We don't comment on bugs often because they are essentially bug reports and we have to wait for news from the dev team before we can really say anything about them.

    You would see more interaction from mods/devs if things were more constructive here. Your post is an excellent attempt at constructive conversation. Hopefully, it stays that way. We would absolutely love to have these forums be a more constructive and friendlier place for all, but since there's a lot of hostility that comes after we respond, we've all taken a backseat to commenting as it just exacerbates the toxic nature here. We're not trying to give anyone the cold shoulder. We wish it didn't have to be that way as we're as much fans of this game as we are employees of the company that makes it. However, trying to keep the overall tone of the forums here to one that is welcoming and constructive is easier to do when we comment less.

    This is a fair take, but you can understand the frustration, right? I have no context as to what's being attempted to be debunked, but you're trying to discredit a critique made by a paying customer. Most of them return customers.

    As a regular EASHL player, it's frustrating how very little progress has been made in this mode over the years. The menu is strikingly similar to 20's. The matchmaking system is still insanely slow. The RP system is a glorified version of CR and is a nightmare for people who play drop-ins because the community is riddled with trolls and players that drop out with absolutely no repercussions. When the AI gets involved, they flip the script every game because they don't follow the same rules as human players--specifically their animations. This game mode caters to players who abuse the game mechanics that lean heavier towards offensive players each and every year, which make the final product look less and less like hockey.

    The people complaining here may be doing it in a way that comes across as 'toxic', but the only reason they're posting on this forum is because they care enough to air their grievances. A bad game wouldn't have a community that is passionate enough to hold the game developers accountable.

    Props to the OP. That took a lot of work.

    The one thing that mods go out of their way to explain is ice tilt how icetilt is a myth. There are more people than i’d Like to believe that are convinced that the game programmed to have you lose.

    I could explain to them it’s cuz of Bad positioning, or even just a bad bounce, but a lot of people truly believe that EA makes it so one side can win. I really can’t imply how much of a victim mentality that is and how incredibly illogical their claims are. Why would the game be out to get JUST you? Why would the game want it to be tied??? Why does the game what YOU to lose???

    And people sit here and argue with the developers and mods and it’s just like arguing with people on Facebook about politics.... most people are just gonna believe whatever storyline serves their mindset.... even though it may not actually gel with reality.........

    But guess what most people can’t see the trees from the top of the forest nor do they recognize how big the forest is from the base of the trunk.

    ID QUIT REPLYING TO THE LOT OF YA TOO - BE CONSTRUCTIVE TO HELP EVERYONE- GO FLAMES 🔥
  • belair_col
    110 posts Member
    edited December 2020
    belair_col wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    It's a well reasoned list of things that would for sure make this game even more tight.

    Would surprise me if stuff like this isn't on their 'wish-list'. Hopefully we se some of this when we move in to next-gen.

    I really hope you are right. I am hoping that the next gen brings some of the greatness this game once had back. I dont know how you do it but I love your positivity Mega. I also hope people add to this - in a healthy way - to further reinforce the need for more customization options - better gameplay - and a better product.

    I think we 'all' can do a better job together if we try to stay positive. If we think that the developers are one of us, instead of against us. We are all on the same boat here, but with alot of diffrent preferences of whats good and whats bad.

    But I like what you sayin, and im defenetly behind you on this.

    This is important for people to understand though - when people spend earned money on a product they think is lackluster and this doesnt get resolved in a timely manner (while being told the customer is always right and their satisfaction drives success) then frustration builds. Some things have been plaguing this game for 7 years now and we have seen very little movement. Offline players feel like they are neglected. There are many more EA responses on HUT threads which gives the picture that is their priority.

    It is not easy for a lot of people to hold back that emotion especially when they come to a place like this.

    I would like it if we had a gigantic gripe thread where people do less debating and more pleading their case. Some of us have good ideas and some do not.

    Again though it is madness for a multi billion dollar company to be able to get away with what it does and give its customers the cold shoulder.

    But I do like your positive and hopeful tone. I am jealous honestly. I have had this game since 95 and my excitement and hope for this game continues to go down. I do not want to dislike it. Hockey is my fav

    We limit ourselves to what we respond to these days. We used to get involved in gameplay discussions, but there's almost always some sort of backlash so we've backed out of those conversations and are trying to just listen to feedback and make sure it gets seen. There are times we try to debunk assumptions and false claims, but that doesn't go well either. The HUT discussions have mainly centered around the DDA debate. Which we're also limiting our interaction on. We don't comment on bugs often because they are essentially bug reports and we have to wait for news from the dev team before we can really say anything about them.

    You would see more interaction from mods/devs if things were more constructive here. Your post is an excellent attempt at constructive conversation. Hopefully, it stays that way. We would absolutely love to have these forums be a more constructive and friendlier place for all, but since there's a lot of hostility that comes after we respond, we've all taken a backseat to commenting as it just exacerbates the toxic nature here. We're not trying to give anyone the cold shoulder. We wish it didn't have to be that way as we're as much fans of this game as we are employees of the company that makes it. However, trying to keep the overall tone of the forums here to one that is welcoming and constructive is easier to do when we comment less.

    This is a fair take, but you can understand the frustration, right? I have no context as to what's being attempted to be debunked, but you're trying to discredit a critique made by a paying customer. Most of them return customers.

    As a regular EASHL player, it's frustrating how very little progress has been made in this mode over the years. The menu is strikingly similar to 20's. The matchmaking system is still insanely slow. The RP system is a glorified version of CR and is a nightmare for people who play drop-ins because the community is riddled with trolls and players that drop out with absolutely no repercussions. When the AI gets involved, they flip the script every game because they don't follow the same rules as human players--specifically their animations. This game mode caters to players who abuse the game mechanics that lean heavier towards offensive players each and every year, which make the final product look less and less like hockey.

    The people complaining here may be doing it in a way that comes across as 'toxic', but the only reason they're posting on this forum is because they care enough to air their grievances. A bad game wouldn't have a community that is passionate enough to hold the game developers accountable.

    Props to the OP. That took a lot of work.

    The one thing that mods go out of their way to explain is ice tilt how icetilt is a myth. There are more people than i’d Like to believe that are convinced that the game programmed to have you lose.

    I could explain to them it’s cuz of Bad positioning, or even just a bad bounce, but a lot of people truly believe that EA makes it so one side can win. I really can’t imply how much of a victim mentality that is and how incredibly illogical their claims are. Why would the game be out to get JUST you? Why would the game want it to be tied??? Why does the game what YOU to lose???

    And people sit here and argue with the developers and mods and it’s just like arguing with people on Facebook about politics.... most people are just gonna believe whatever storyline serves their mindset.... even though it may not actually gel with reality.........

    But guess what most people can’t see the trees from the top of the forest nor do they recognize how big the forest is from the base of the trunk.

    ID QUIT REPLYING TO THE LOT OF YA TOO - BE CONSTRUCTIVE TO HELP EVERYONE- GO FLAMES 🔥

    You're not convinced that the AI has the ability to change the outcome of a game? Go play a drop-in lobby for four hours by yourself and tell me that they can't.

    'Ice tilt' is the game's momentum. When AI sprites have the ability to do things that human players can't do and have the ability to instantly react to what human players do, there's a mechanism that allows the game itself to 'choose' an outcome or at the very least alter the result. 'Bad bounces' seem to be a big part of how the AI thrives, because when you hone in on one of them, they're not particularly intelligent. Nor are they particularly solid positionally. But man are they 'lucky'.
    Post edited by belair_col on
  • Obviously the AI has a chance to influence the game. All human control players play within the confines of the AI. Nobody can escape it. That’s how video games work, buddy.

    And of course when there were 12 humans and ANY number of them get replaced they will influence the game. Like, why wouldn’t they? HOW they influence depends on the skill of the people they are with and against.

    Let me explain, say I’m playing LD, and my RD decides to get in a fight. I’m immediately on edge because an AI compy partner is not so reliable. They are good at picking passes off and, in general, retrieving loose pucks. They AREN’T good at one on ones, and defending the rush, they are confusing when they decide to swap sides and won’t change back, they sometimes make poor passes or unwise shot choices. You gotta be a bad defenseman if I’m hoping you drop out 😂

    Now if it’s a W (and to a lesser extent a C) AI, that can be more desiirable. Depends on the skill of my human teammates. When I’m playing drop in against lower skill guys... And we’re losing big time- i’m praying somebody leaves so I play with the AI as it has a better hockey IQ than the majority of the mediocre players I run across in random drop ins. If I’m playing a real sweaty one.... I fear having an AI on my side cuz elite players understand their weaknesses and strengths and can exploit it.

    Momentum is sports is a lot like momentum in esports: cerebral and emotional. If you think it’s something outside of your control, well, Bub, I hate to say it but that’s a victim mentality and that inevitably leads to a losing record in life and NHL 21.


    The unlucky things are like unfortunate tips or weird bounces. Yeah it’s frustrating, yeah sometimes it’s glitchy... but it is 100 percent not biased to either side. Which is the myth.
  • There is no DDA.
  • The one million question.

    What is ice-tilt?

    A, DDA

    B, Easy way to 'hate on EA/the game'

    C, a question of connection

    😏
  • None of the above..?
  • Socair
    2814 posts Game Changer
    No more DDA, ice tilt or built in artificial “momentum” talk please. It’s not constructive, nor the topic at hand, and will derail the thread.
  • I will sneak this in - all games that have AI opponents will have weirdness simply because the AI can do things the human player cannot due mainly to zero lag. I see this in Gears 5 all the time. That doesnt mean the game is rigged against the player or for a determined outcome.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68 wrote: »
    I will sneak this in - all games that have AI opponents will have weirdness simply because the AI can do things the human player cannot due mainly to zero lag. I see this in Gears 5 all the time. That doesnt mean the game is rigged against the player or for a determined outcome.

    AI players can instantly hustle. They can also make weird micro-movements. To be honest, @IceLion68 , I didn't really like 20 that much and after reading some of your stuff think you should give 21 a go. It's not perfect but you can make it good offline. Although I think I remember you saying you only play WoC...if that's the case stay away. Online is nothing but speed and hustle. Gets boring fast
  • Adding to this tomorrow or Thursday. Currently traveling for work and don't have time. Will update the thread @EA_Aljo. The initial post can be restructured and altered a bit
  • IceLion68 wrote: »
    I will sneak this in - all games that have AI opponents will have weirdness simply because the AI can do things the human player cannot due mainly to zero lag. I see this in Gears 5 all the time. That doesnt mean the game is rigged against the player or for a determined outcome.

    AI players can instantly hustle. They can also make weird micro-movements. To be honest, @IceLion68 , I didn't really like 20 that much and after reading some of your stuff think you should give 21 a go. It's not perfect but you can make it good offline. Although I think I remember you saying you only play WoC...if that's the case stay away. Online is nothing but speed and hustle. Gets boring fast

    Ya I only play WoC , dropins and club - tho my clubmate (singular - thats how bad this franchise has gotten) has had some life changes and is no longer playing.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68 wrote: »
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    I will sneak this in - all games that have AI opponents will have weirdness simply because the AI can do things the human player cannot due mainly to zero lag. I see this in Gears 5 all the time. That doesnt mean the game is rigged against the player or for a determined outcome.

    AI players can instantly hustle. They can also make weird micro-movements. To be honest, @IceLion68 , I didn't really like 20 that much and after reading some of your stuff think you should give 21 a go. It's not perfect but you can make it good offline. Although I think I remember you saying you only play WoC...if that's the case stay away. Online is nothing but speed and hustle. Gets boring fast

    Ya I only play WoC , dropins and club - tho my clubmate (singular - thats how bad this franchise has gotten) has had some life changes and is no longer playing.

    @IceLion68 - You plan on PS or Xbox?
  • IceLion68
    1624 posts Member
    edited December 2020
    @IceLion68 - You plan on PS or Xbox?

    I play on Xbox, and only rarely these days.

    NHL 20 though as mentioned in my other thread I have been playing the 10 hour trial of 21.

    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
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