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Is the game playing us instead??

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  • He's claiming the game is 'scripted' - meaning that a winner is chosen by EA and the game is played out under that direction

    Maybe that's what he means when he says "scripted" but it is not obviously so from what he actually says.

    Regardless

    I would agree there are two different things he is arguing. A far as the "fake lag" stuff. I am not sure what to make of that. Honestly it feels like a stretch. I would hate to think this was actually intentionally introduced.

    But the "scripted" stuff?

    EA has been denying "ice tilt" and "momentum" for *years* when people have tried to draw attention to this phenomenon. While I concede people were mistaken in thinking that the game somehow is trying to achieve a predetermined outcome - an argument which even I admit is silly and falls apart under the most basic of scrutiny - there is *something* at work here and @EA_Aljo has actually now told us as much.

    That the behaviour of the AI changes in a certain set of circumstances definitely could explain what we people are seeing, however erroneously they may be characterizing it. It also absolutely has the ability to change the final outcome of the game.

    So while the outcome may not be predetermined, EA has created intelligence in the game that tries to upend what would have been the outcome had it done nothing. On this the OP is - rightly IMO, given the superhuman things the AI can sometimes do - simply saying, let the humans determine the outcome of the game.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68 wrote: »
    He's claiming the game is 'scripted' - meaning that a winner is chosen by EA and the game is played out under that direction
    simply saying, let the humans determine the outcome of the game.

    If there was 1 vs 1 on the ice, that would be it, but as long as we have to do with AI players, they gonna have an impact of the outcome.

    It's a dilemma.

    I want the A.I to be as little involved as possible, but at the same time, it's really hard to play against people that know how to manipulate the game, without having good backup from your own AI.

    🙄
  • KidShowtime1867
    1645 posts Member
    edited February 18
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    EA has been denying "ice tilt" and "momentum" for *years* when people have tried to draw attention to this phenomenon. While I concede people were mistaken in thinking that the game somehow is trying to achieve a predetermined outcome - an argument which even I admit is silly and falls apart under the most basic of scrutiny - there is *something* at work here and @EA_Aljo has actually now told us as much.



    Honestly...

    @EA_Aljo says: AI teams will fight harder when they're down.

    You're trying to conflate this comment with OP's claim that games being played online between two humans are scripted or the victim of ice tilt.

    Clearly, the comment made by Aljo is referring to offline games versus the A.I. And it should come as no surprise to anyone who understands the game of hockey that a team (either A.I. or human controlled) would adjust their strategies and increase taking risks according to the score and time left in the game.

    There is no ice tilt.
  • RSall14
    604 posts Member
    edited February 18
    EA_Aljo wrote: »

    AI teams will fight harder when they're down. Especially in the second half of the 3rd

    Big mistake on your guys part for telling us this.

  • Socair
    2716 posts Game Changer
    RSall14 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »

    AI teams will fight harder when they're down. Especially in the second half of the 3rd

    Big mistake on your guys part for telling us this.

    It’s been known or at least obvious in game for years. You can change the cpu strategy adjustment slider in whatever modes allow for it (you can’t do this in HUT SB...).

    This has nothing to do with human vs human games. You can adjust your in game d pad strats to make the AI more or less aggressive at any time.
  • RSall14 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »

    AI teams will fight harder when they're down. Especially in the second half of the 3rd

    Big mistake on your guys part for telling us this.

    Lmao how is it a big mistake pointing out something as obvious as the computer will adjust its strategy sometimes?

    If I were an offline player, I would be kind of mad if this weren’t the case. I mean, how stale would it be if the CPU made no adjustments at all?



  • These arguments are almost as bad as when people hear the commentators in the game talking about how the ice is tilted, then coming on here claiming that’s proof that “ice tilt” is in the game.
  • I failed to mention in my original post that I usually play HUT online games, and everything I talked about is definitely a thing there. I can't do any better than 42ms there either, and sometimes it's mid 50's to low 60's too.

    I generally don't play much OVP anymore with all the questionable connections going on there. I can only conclude that my location probably isn't anywhere near a "sweet spot" with all the issues I have had since NHL 15 with this series.
  • IceLion68 wrote: »
    He's claiming the game is 'scripted' - meaning that a winner is chosen by EA and the game is played out under that direction

    Maybe that's what he means when he says "scripted" but it is not obviously so from what he actually says.

    Regardless

    I would agree there are two different things he is arguing. A far as the "fake lag" stuff. I am not sure what to make of that. Honestly it feels like a stretch. I would hate to think this was actually intentionally introduced.

    But the "scripted" stuff?

    EA has been denying "ice tilt" and "momentum" for *years* when people have tried to draw attention to this phenomenon. While I concede people were mistaken in thinking that the game somehow is trying to achieve a predetermined outcome - an argument which even I admit is silly and falls apart under the most basic of scrutiny - there is *something* at work here and @EA_Aljo has actually now told us as much.

    That the behaviour of the AI changes in a certain set of circumstances definitely could explain what we people are seeing, however erroneously they may be characterizing it. It also absolutely has the ability to change the final outcome of the game.

    So while the outcome may not be predetermined, EA has created intelligence in the game that tries to upend what would have been the outcome had it done nothing. On this the OP is - rightly IMO, given the superhuman things the AI can sometimes do - simply saying, let the humans determine the outcome of the game[\b].

    That’s why I don’t think we should be able to use R1 to get the AI to shoot and R2 to get them to pass both automatically. I’ve seen so many people (myself included) use to greatly to my advantage to come back and win games especially after the opposing human goalie quit. This would make a huge difference IMO.
  • xPDogg65x wrote: »
    These arguments are almost as bad as when people hear the commentators in the game talking about how the ice is tilted, then coming on here claiming that’s proof that “ice tilt” is in the game.

    Fix the problem or fire the engineer! We can't have an uneven ice..

    Must admit, everytime I hear that after a loss, it somehow feels better..

    Proof that EA got some type of self-perspective and humour.
  • I failed to mention in my original post that I usually play HUT online games, and everything I talked about is definitely a thing there. I can't do any better than 42ms there either, and sometimes it's mid 50's to low 60's too.

    I generally don't play much OVP anymore with all the questionable connections going on there. I can only conclude that my location probably isn't anywhere near a "sweet spot" with all the issues I have had since NHL 15 with this series.

    a ping to the dedicated HUT servers in the 50's and 60's is actually quite good. Are you on wireless by chance?

    It might be worth it to check your home network to see if there is any latency going on internally that could cause your online gameplay to be as faulty as you say.

    I've never been lower than 32ms and have played plenty of games in the high 60's with no discernable difference in gameplay.

    I start to feel the lag at around 100+ms.
  • IceLion68
    1221 posts Member
    edited February 19
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    EA has been denying "ice tilt" and "momentum" for *years* when people have tried to draw attention to this phenomenon. While I concede people were mistaken in thinking that the game somehow is trying to achieve a predetermined outcome - an argument which even I admit is silly and falls apart under the most basic of scrutiny - there is *something* at work here and @EA_Aljo has actually now told us as much.



    Honestly...

    @EA_Aljo says: AI teams will fight harder when they're down.

    You're trying to conflate this comment with OP's claim that games being played online between two humans are scripted or the victim of ice tilt.

    To be perfectly clear - again - I am not saying this is ice tilt as people have been crying about. I am just saying that this could explain what people are seeing.
    Clearly, the comment made by Aljo is referring to offline games versus the A.I. And it should come as no surprise to anyone who understands the game of hockey that a team (either A.I. or human controlled) would adjust their strategies and increase taking risks according to the score and time left in the game.

    Well, the OP has stated he is playing online HUT - so I have 2 questions for @EA_Aljo :

    1) Does this only refer to AI-only teams?
    2) Does the AI on the team defending the lead also adjust when this happens?
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • untouchable_BF1
    1181 posts Member
    edited February 19
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    EA has been denying "ice tilt" and "momentum" for *years* when people have tried to draw attention to this phenomenon. While I concede people were mistaken in thinking that the game somehow is trying to achieve a predetermined outcome - an argument which even I admit is silly and falls apart under the most basic of scrutiny - there is *something* at work here and @EA_Aljo has actually now told us as much.



    Honestly...

    @EA_Aljo says: AI teams will fight harder when they're down.

    You're trying to conflate this comment with OP's claim that games being played online between two humans are scripted or the victim of ice tilt.

    To be perfectly clear - again - I am not saying this is ice tilt as people have been crying about. I am just saying that this could explain what people are seeing.
    Clearly, the comment made by Aljo is referring to offline games versus the A.I. And it should come as no surprise to anyone who understands the game of hockey that a team (either A.I. or human controlled) would adjust their strategies and increase taking risks according to the score and time left in the game.

    Well, the OP has stated he is playing online HUT - so I have 2 questions for @EA_Aljo :

    1) Does this only refer to AI-only teams?
    2) Does the AI on the team defending the lead also adjust when this happens?

    Just from my offline experience, here are my answers:

    1. Yes and no. When playing offline modes outside of HUT, the CPU/HUM strategy adjustment sliders determine the amount of change in strategy depending on the game situation. I personally rock 0/6 for both and play 1/2 the game for each team just so that the experience is 100% “fair” when playing. To this point, if those sliders are set to anything above 0, you will see your coach make adjustments and if you switch teams you’ll notice your previously set values will be different.

    2. the HUM default is 0/6 while the CPU is 3/6 so I assume a HUT offline game would require the human to manually change these strategies if they wish.

    Interesting anecdotal experiences that “lean” towards the AI being uneven when compared to the user and itself from my time playing with completely even rosters, sliders, strategies:

    1. Some games I can just “feel” one team is scoring easier than the other. Outshoot one team 36/20 and the team with 20 shots ends up winning 6-2. Goals are first shots, deflections, screens and due to the obvious fact that I’m playing myself lol, I’m not trying anything with one team that I wouldn’t with the other. I don’t care about wins and losses obviously, I objectively try to score for both, but one goalie is on fire while the other stinks and both have their consistency attribute at 0/2 which we know means zero variation in their play. This experience goes away when playing on Pro and Superstar. All-star is a total mess and I’m convinced that the All-Star and Superstar difficulties have been flip-flopped for the last 2-3 years, because AS is super frustrating and annoying, Pro is too easy, Superstar oddly enough feels just right.

    2. Despite being told “both AI’s have the same “abilities” there is a drastic difference in competence between opponent AI and yours. Your AI don’t want the puck, they practically stand still and don’t react to anything unless you hold their hand and skate them next to the puck then change off of them. The CPU AI on the other hand basically starts their full sprint towards the inevitable location of the puck tip/deflection/destination immediately after contact from a pad/stick or release of a pass. This makes winning races off of deflections in-order to hold the zone very hard against the AI. Now, add this phenomenon onto default sliders and super aggressive AI strats and you’ll get an opponent that feels like they’re in “super” or “god” mode.

    Another example of this, when you pass and barely miss, all 4 of your teammates stand still and will be totally disinterested in the puck till it’s picked up by an opponent. Opponents react immediately to pucks without clear destinations (at least one player) which makes passing into space less rewarding and viable than it should be as modern hockey offenses rely on area passing so much due to the lack of time and space.

    3. The AI puck pickups and animation cancelling are absolutely ridiculous when compared to the human. You’ll go into a corner, make the AI stumble with a hit, and your throwing a hit animation will last longer than their stumble which they can immediately branch into a pickup animation in their desired direction which is something the human literally can’t do. Humans have to literally release LS and stand still to have a prayer at winning a “50/50” puck battle against the AI. A “50/50” puck against the AI might as well be a “5/95” puck which takes away from a realistic and immersive feeling from the game.

    4. When setting strats for the AI like “full attack” and 10/10 pinch, they will execute those strategies to a fault. It actually is insanely easy to chip the puck by them and make them pay when you do this. Setting your own team to these settings does NOT result in your AI pinching without care and trying to hold the zone at all costs. Clearly they put way too much stock into reading the human and their “positioning” to simply do their jobs and execute the assigned strategy. Let me make mistakes, please. I want to be beat running my strategies, I do not want to be beat because the AI overrules my coaching instruction, does something super passive, and ends up opening a hole that wouldn’t have existed had they played aggressive like I asked them too.

    5. When I setup in the zone, the CPU will force me to the boards and if I cycle back to the point, the player who was marking my player low will take away the return pass a lot of the time which forces me to look to my partner or shoot which is great to see, I love that! My AI though, want no part of that. They would rather stand and collapse (usually not even covering anyone btw which is super helpful) despite being set to “puck side attack” and “staggered” which makes getting hemmed in your zone a rather frustrating and helpless experience.

    6. My team still does not understand how to not randomly sprint across the NZ when trapping and give up their assigned position lol. What in the heck is going on lol? Like, what are they “reading” that results in this? It’s a zone defense. Stand (well, please telescope/not stand completely still) in your position and do your job. The CPU team does this to a fault! They stand in their position and get burned running the trap while flat footed because they do stand quite literally in their position lol! I don’t magically find a wide open passing lane on one side of the ice due to a CPU AI sprinting away from their assigned position, so why do my AI do this?

    7. CPU skating is just laughable. They simply break the physics engine whenever they want and float, spin, juke, stutter step, wiggle, whatever you want to call it, whenever they feel like it. There should be no video evidence required here, play the game for 5 seconds, dump the puck in, and watch how they get to negate your “board play” request for a second then stop, start, power move, and accelerate in the same frame easily escape your forecheck. If anyone needs a video for this, they don’t play the game nearly enough lol.

    That’s it for now, but I felt it’s relevant information to this discussion on “ice tilt” or “the game playing us” or “CPU variance” we see in games. It’s there, but I doubt it’s malicious. Like you, I’d rather these discussions focus more on the “why” people are saying this rather than simply denying “ice tilt” because at the end of the day, who cares whether it’s malicious or not? We just want to see these variances remediated/addressed so that the outcomes are more predictable/fair. And when I say “predictable” I don’t mean that attributes shouldn’t matter and that I want every outcome to be a given, but I would like to see my AI execute a trap as well as a team of high schoolers could when I set that strategy. I’d like to see my AI be as “puck hungry” as my fully-CPU AI are. I’d like to see 50/50 pucks be more 50/50. I’d like to see the CPU adhere to to the physics engine. All of these “predictable” things should happen which will leave room for dynamic outcomes to happen.

    Last thing I’ll note here while I’m on the topic of inconsistency, since upgrading to the XSX, al of my offline games have had a consistent speed. They’re all faster than my 1X games but you can’t tell the animation speeds are normal. They’re are not in the hyper-speed mode they are on the 1X when you can tell it’s “speed glitch” time. This seems to support my theory that the X1 and 1X were the culprits of this phenomenon but I could never fully figure out why this happened or what was causing it. Here’s to hoping the speed glitch will go away in this next generation of games as I believe it was a console issue.
  • So let me throw this question in there for the DEVs or whoever has any insight. This goes for ALL video games in general. If you perform an action on your controller, whether it be a button press, a stick movement, or a combo move, if what you just did doesn't translate 100% to your player in the game then is that not the sign of a bad game???

    For example, if I aim the stick in the up-right direction and then press R2 or RT my player had damn well better make a pass in the EXACT up-right direction I aimed it in. If I do these things and EA decides that my pass is going in the left direction or not even pass at all then YOU EA have problems with YOUR game that need to be fixed. If you don't fix this then your game is terrible because the PLAYER is not in control of what he is trying to do.

    Now I don't give a flying rats-****-**** WHY these things seem to happen where the controller doesn't translate 100% of the time in a 1:1 fashion, but I assure you it has nothing to do with MY console or internet because these problems DO NOT exist in any other NON-EA game. Make sure you are making note of the words in all caps. They are that way for a reason.

    Another note...taking video clips will not show the disparity between controller and player. You have to FEEL the difference by using your controller and seeing that the controller output does NOT match the input a lot of the time. That's just the way this game is, and YOU EA need to figure out WHY it is this way.
  • EA_Aljo
    2694 posts EA Community Manager
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »

    I wish I had a video for you. I always forget that you can actually do that on the consoles now, but it's not really my thing. It's way easier for me to just say what the problem is.

    The report is appreciated, but we can't do anything with it since there's no video to back up what you're saying. Recording video on either console is a very simple process. It's a little more difficult to publish the video, but this too is a pretty easy process. These instructions can be found online as well. If you can tell me which system you're on, I'll look them up for you.

    To be fair, you can hardly fault people for not providing video. In almost no case have I seen someone post video and been validated. It has almost never happened. What people inevitably get for going through the trouble of posting video of their grievances is to have them explained away by "oh that., yes that's just how the game works...". or "it looks like you did X when you should have done Y".

    It becomes a huge suspension of disbelief that no one at EA seems to have had any first hand knowledge or experience of the things in question. For years EA has denied ice tilt... and yet...
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    AI teams will fight harder when they're down. Especially in the second half of the 3rd, but they aren't forced to win no matter what you do.

    Can you elaborate on this? What does this actually mean?

    They take more chances and play more aggressively.

    Which may not be ice tilt in the the sense that the outcome is rigged... but it now seems a bit disingenuous to have been maintaining that what people were seeing was all in their heads.

    There has been a huge amount of changes that came from video. This helps the dev team reproduce bugs that are reported. We wouldn't ask for them if they weren't important. Video submissions from the community are very highly appreciated.

    Humans can play the same way and they often do when in the final moments of a close game. Throwing shots on net, moving the puck more, etc. There's a sense of urgency that comes out in the play of human and AI players.
  • EA_Aljo
    2694 posts EA Community Manager
    nyi95 wrote: »
    It always makes me chuckle when they ask for video evidence. Why do they need it?

    Because people will describe a scenario and leave out important details.

    I don't really do video capturing ever (I'm not a showoff and don't feel the use for it).

    People who share video of their problems with the games aren't 'show offs'. They're providing important context for the developers to get a clear picture of an issue with the game.

    Exactly this. People will claim the passed through their stick. When they provide video of it, normally we see where their stick or body passed through an object/player which negates making contact with the puck. This is why video is so important because there are many different conditions that can lead to someone thinking they're experiencing a bug.
  • EA_Aljo
    2694 posts EA Community Manager
    nyi95 wrote: »
    Again I'll ask. What game are they playing if they're not seeing what we're seeing? Not bashing on them, just curious. It leads me to believe that if they're not experiencing what most of us on here are, then what's the point of video evidence?
    If they need video evidence of how to make this game fun again, might i suggest they go back and play a few games on old gen. At least ask the producer or the team that handled that series what they think of the current state of this game. I'd be really curious of the answer.

    We play the same exact game. However, we also have a more fine understanding of the mechanics. Many of the things we see that are reported are either intended or known issues. Again, such as pucks passing through players when their stick/body passes through something. We also aren't so suspect to confirmation bias. Whereas many people believe in ice tilt, momentum, etc, we're recognizing when we or our opponents are making mistakes or there's just a difference in play in general that would cause this assumption in others.
  • EA_Aljo
    2694 posts EA Community Manager
    edited February 20
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    He's claiming the game is 'scripted' - meaning that a winner is chosen by EA and the game is played out under that direction

    Maybe that's what he means when he says "scripted" but it is not obviously so from what he actually says.

    Regardless

    I would agree there are two different things he is arguing. A far as the "fake lag" stuff. I am not sure what to make of that. Honestly it feels like a stretch. I would hate to think this was actually intentionally introduced.

    But the "scripted" stuff?

    EA has been denying "ice tilt" and "momentum" for *years* when people have tried to draw attention to this phenomenon. While I concede people were mistaken in thinking that the game somehow is trying to achieve a predetermined outcome - an argument which even I admit is silly and falls apart under the most basic of scrutiny - there is *something* at work here and @EA_Aljo has actually now told us as much.

    That the behaviour of the AI changes in a certain set of circumstances definitely could explain what we people are seeing, however erroneously they may be characterizing it. It also absolutely has the ability to change the final outcome of the game.

    So while the outcome may not be predetermined, EA has created intelligence in the game that tries to upend what would have been the outcome had it done nothing. On this the OP is - rightly IMO, given the superhuman things the AI can sometimes do - simply saying, let the humans determine the outcome of the game.

    What I said about AI players fighting harder when they're down isn't just now coming to light. We've talked about this for years as it's been a part of the game for a while now. They aren't getting boosted stats or one team isn't having theirs reduced. They are putting more shots on net and reacting quicker with passes. They are looking for open lanes and many players give these up when chasing the puck.
  • EA_Aljo
    2694 posts EA Community Manager
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    EA has been denying "ice tilt" and "momentum" for *years* when people have tried to draw attention to this phenomenon. While I concede people were mistaken in thinking that the game somehow is trying to achieve a predetermined outcome - an argument which even I admit is silly and falls apart under the most basic of scrutiny - there is *something* at work here and @EA_Aljo has actually now told us as much.



    Honestly...

    @EA_Aljo says: AI teams will fight harder when they're down.

    You're trying to conflate this comment with OP's claim that games being played online between two humans are scripted or the victim of ice tilt.

    To be perfectly clear - again - I am not saying this is ice tilt as people have been crying about. I am just saying that this could explain what people are seeing.
    Clearly, the comment made by Aljo is referring to offline games versus the A.I. And it should come as no surprise to anyone who understands the game of hockey that a team (either A.I. or human controlled) would adjust their strategies and increase taking risks according to the score and time left in the game.

    Well, the OP has stated he is playing online HUT - so I have 2 questions for @EA_Aljo :

    1) Does this only refer to AI-only teams?
    2) Does the AI on the team defending the lead also adjust when this happens?

    1. Yes. This is when playing offline and single-player HUT games.

    2. No because that's not a full team of AI players. The human can set their strategies to play more aggressively as well as just playing with a sense of urgency in general.
  • EA_Aljo
    2694 posts EA Community Manager
    So let me throw this question in there for the DEVs or whoever has any insight. This goes for ALL video games in general. If you perform an action on your controller, whether it be a button press, a stick movement, or a combo move, if what you just did doesn't translate 100% to your player in the game then is that not the sign of a bad game???

    For example, if I aim the stick in the up-right direction and then press R2 or RT my player had damn well better make a pass in the EXACT up-right direction I aimed it in. If I do these things and EA decides that my pass is going in the left direction or not even pass at all then YOU EA have problems with YOUR game that need to be fixed. If you don't fix this then your game is terrible because the PLAYER is not in control of what he is trying to do.

    Now I don't give a flying rats-****-**** WHY these things seem to happen where the controller doesn't translate 100% of the time in a 1:1 fashion, but I assure you it has nothing to do with MY console or internet because these problems DO NOT exist in any other NON-EA game. Make sure you are making note of the words in all caps. They are that way for a reason.

    Another note...taking video clips will not show the disparity between controller and player. You have to FEEL the difference by using your controller and seeing that the controller output does NOT match the input a lot of the time. That's just the way this game is, and YOU EA need to figure out WHY it is this way.

    You'll need to get video of passes going in the wrong direction with the controller overlay present so we can see what's happening. We have seen claims of this with video in the past, but the controller overlay is showing they weren't as precise as they thought they were. You also have to consider ratings as a lower rated passer won't be as good at hitting their target. Then, there are other conditions that affect accuracy. If they had just picked up the puck or deked, their accuracy is going to be lower since the puck isn't settled yet.
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