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Stop lying to yourselves, cross crease is trash

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  • kyl_35
    149 posts Member
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    kyl_35 wrote: »
    The goalie’s lack of reaction to the pass annoys me more than the defender not intercepting it, to be honest.

    Even without the goalie getting a stick on that pass, that’s a pretty easy save.

    My son - a goalie in **** minor hockey - has deflected two of these passes in his last two games. The fact that an NHL goalie cant do that in this game is laughable.

    The goalies do try to poke it sometimes, but it seems only when the player's have possession and not during a pass:


    Funny part about this clip is that goalies should almost never poke check from the glove side post--especially like he did in this clip where he's attacking with the front of his blade instead of the back.

    That said, Fleury is my favourite goalie and I completely believe this is the kind of dumb thing he'd do, haha.

  • Sega82mega
    3769 posts Member
    edited April 7
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    The pass receiver simply stands there and waits with his RS pushed up. The defender meanwhile tries to be where he needs to be to intercept the pass but... nope. Not happening 9 times out of 10. No speed involved. Two players just standing in place.



    That said - I agree 100% with the bolded part. I've always petitioned for one-timers to be timing based.

    However, I understand why EA wouldn't want to do that; the one-timer mechanic has been pass-hold since NHL 94 and changing that mechanic could push people away.

    .. Or bring new people.. (back).

    But I get what you sayin.

    All tough, considering how much whining this serie seem to create.

    I wouldn’t be too scare to change things up, if I were EA.

    Once you hit the bottom it can only go one way from there..

    But if you ask me, they have already startin to rise. I just miss some more details that could really bring a new touch to this game.

    Changing the mechanics behind one timers could definitely be a good start.

    Could do cross creases more rare without having to go much deeper down in the gameplay mechanics and disturbe other functions.
  • Z0mbieBabyJesus
    1497 posts Member
    edited April 7
    Shhhh, his 3 examples definitely prove its consistently stoppable. /s

    A compilation of quite a few clips, Just for you, champ:




    Some more:










    There's like 10+ instances. Should I keep going, or....?

    Why bother? I can post countless cherry picked examples to prove my points, but I'd rather not waste my time.

    And I have no idea why you're showing me you breaking up a cross crease. I've never once complained about that goal. I can break those up as well. I was mostly jesting because you love posting the same few clips. I don't want to waste hours of my time uploading every clip of broken game play I take, especially since it's ultimately ignored or hand waved away.
  • Shhhh, his 3 examples definitely prove its consistently stoppable. /s

    A compilation of quite a few clips, Just for you, champ:




    Some more:










    There's like 10+ instances. Should I keep going, or....?

    Why bother? I can post countless cherry picked examples to prove my points, but I'd rather not waste my time.

    And I have no idea why you're showing me you breaking up a cross crease. I've never once complained about that goal. I can break those up as well. I was mostly jesting because you love posting the same few clips. I don't want to waste hours of my time uploading every clip of broken game play I take, especially since it's ultimately ignored or hand waved away.

    I’ve provided quite a few clips from just the last few days.

    It’s obvious you know a lot about this game and you have a very strong opinion of where it should head in terms of evolution.

    Those are the reasons why I think it’s worth it for you to upload clips about the things that you deem “broken” so that the development team see’s it.

    Then maybe we get some kind of explanation as to why things played out that way or you can have a direct influence on the game by giving the developers some insight in to things they maybe haven’t seen.
  • Shhhh, his 3 examples definitely prove its consistently stoppable. /s

    A compilation of quite a few clips, Just for you, champ:




    Some more:










    There's like 10+ instances. Should I keep going, or....?

    Why bother? I can post countless cherry picked examples to prove my points, but I'd rather not waste my time.

    And I have no idea why you're showing me you breaking up a cross crease. I've never once complained about that goal. I can break those up as well. I was mostly jesting because you love posting the same few clips. I don't want to waste hours of my time uploading every clip of broken game play I take, especially since it's ultimately ignored or hand waved away.

    I’ve provided quite a few clips from just the last few days.

    It’s obvious you know a lot about this game and you have a very strong opinion of where it should head in terms of evolution.

    Those are the reasons why I think it’s worth it for you to upload clips about the things that you deem “broken” so that the development team see’s it.

    Then maybe we get some kind of explanation as to why things played out that way or you can have a direct influence on the game by giving the developers some insight in to things they maybe haven’t seen.

    I'm not sure what level you are playing at, but in those 1 v 1 clips, in higher level play (d2 hut), the puck carrier would have easily scored shortside with a deke or a snipe when you completely sell out to cover the pass. Not to mention, that is not how you cover a pass in hockey, you get in the passing lane in most circumstances. You kamikaze/maul/tie up the pass recipient under certain circumstances, not as the only way to defend a pass.

    With that said, let's find things that we can agree that EA should definitely fix to make it clear to the developers.

    First, it sounds like you are on board with goalies being a little more active with disrupting passes through the crease. Can we agree on that?

    Second, it sounds like you are on board with maybe reducing how good passes are (especially auto sauced passes) and how easily players recieve/one time extremely hard or sauced passes. Can we agree on that?

    Third, it sounds like most people (including the developers) think that the contortionist behind the back passes are ridiculous and need to be seriously toned down. Do you agree with that?

  • Sega82mega
    3769 posts Member
    Higher level should mean better defense and better offens.

    What would people say is the difference between div 1 vs 5?

    I got my opinion.
  • KidShowtime1867
    1721 posts Member
    edited April 8
    Jagavekov wrote: »

    I'm not sure what level you are playing at, but in those 1 v 1 clips, in higher level play (d2 hut), the puck carrier would have easily scored shortside with a deke or a snipe when you completely sell out to cover the pass.

    I play at a high level. These clips are all from D1 EASHL, top 200 OVP or D2-3 HUT.

    Not to mention, that is not how you cover a pass in hockey, you get in the passing lane in most circumstances. You kamikaze/maul/tie up the pass recipient under certain circumstances, not as the only way to defend a pass.

    Why not both?



    I also disrupt the passing lane in this clip using DSS and Poke check often:



    Here I intercept a pass in the passing lane:

    NsOmfyU.png

    Here I deflect a pass using DSS while it traverses the passing lane:

    PkGwUh0.png

    and again here:

    Jyyg3iv.png

    And just an FYI - these aren't 'cherry picked'. I can capture these things with consistency because this is how I play the game.

    So yes, I am getting in the passing lane but I am being ACTIVE rather than PASSIVELY waiting for my player to intercept.
    With that said, let's find things that we can agree that EA should definitely fix to make it clear to the developers.

    First, it sounds like you are on board with goalies being a little more active with disrupting passes through the crease. Can we agree on that?

    100%
    Second, it sounds like you are on board with maybe reducing how good passes are (especially auto sauced passes) and how easily players recieve/one time extremely hard or sauced passes. Can we agree on that?

    100%.
    Third, it sounds like most people (including the developers) think that the contortionist behind the back passes are ridiculous and need to be seriously toned down. Do you agree with that?

    I've stated a number of times that yes, behind the back passes are ridiculous. I posted a GIF of a goal that I scored that I thought was garbage due to a player receiving a puck behind his back, on his backhand, and scoring:




    Post edited by KidShowtime1867 on
  • Sega82mega
    3769 posts Member
    edited April 10
    How does the players that get cought up flat-footed feel?
    * I actually think some of my opponent's gets flat-footed already high up in the o-zone, beacuse of how hard they go for the puck.. Which ofc will make it pretty hard to play defense after that.

    How does this usally happen and how do you best avoid it?

    Is it fair to say the risk of being flat-footed escalate the harder you push in your forecheck?

    My own opinion is that this is a area EA should put even more focus on, it can really put some serious thinking to the game, if we' had to calculate more on how we choose to move on the ice.
    Post edited by Sega82mega on
  • KidShowtime1867
    1721 posts Member
    edited April 10
    There’s a ton of gifs I’ve posted showing how you can play real hockey tho
    (Edit - quote removed)
    Post edited by Socair on
  • There’s a ton of gifs I’ve posted showing how you can play real hockey tho
    Sure, but why would you if your opponent doesn’t, and gets rewarded for it?
  • Sega82mega
    3769 posts Member
    edited April 10
    I dont like that you can glide and backhand deke and that way avoid contact.

    So in theory you can almost get yourself from defensive zone to offensive zone without taking one edge.

    You just pass the puck to one player to another and start gliding instantly,

    I can understand this mechanics is to alot of help for us against players that just rush against us, searching for fast hits, but at the same time, the way people have learned to use this in other ways is quite painful.

    (perhaps I could have posted this in another thread, sorry)


  • "I talked to a couple of players, they said the cross crease pass is there for the one-timer"

    Hehe hadn't heard the announcer say that before, is this some comment thats been add?

    Ice cold EA, ice cold!

    😄
  • There’s a ton of gifs I’ve posted showing how you can play real hockey tho
    (Edit - quote removed)

    I really like the way you play D, I can tell you’ve mastered feathering the stick for interceptions. I can say that in the little I’ve played online, I don’t have many issues picking off passes with my PMD (which isn’t even close to built like it could be, I’m only like level 15 - don’t have many traits).

    Still think making offense more accountable would solve a lot of these complaints. I really don’t think defense needs to be much “better” game speed just needs to be slower and offense needs to be held accountable like defensemen are.
  • There’s a ton of gifs I’ve posted showing how you can play real hockey tho
    (Edit - quote removed)


    Still think making offense more accountable would solve a lot of these complaints. I really don’t think defense needs to be much “better” game speed just needs to be slower and offense needs to be held accountable like defensemen are.

    Defense dosent need to be much better, but defense definitely needs to be more then to rely on 'sprint-spam' the puck carrier.

    I still argue that probebly 90% dosent know the game-mechanics you need to know if you wanna play another defense then just 'sprint-spam' defense.

    So in that mather - I hope EA can "educate" people into playing a defense thats designed to work propely for this games-game-mechanics.

    Defense is - not - being played as it suppose to, it has taken a wrong turn and people manage to get through just by spamming and hustle and hoping for it's best.

    Regarding offens I can see some changes in the success rate of passes connecting clean for one-timers in crowded areas.
  • Greyinsi wrote: »
    There’s a ton of gifs I’ve posted showing how you can play real hockey tho
    Sure, but why would you if your opponent doesn’t, and gets rewarded for it?

    This is actually a really good point and something I struggle with when trying to explain that realistic hockey can be played.
    There’s a ton of gifs I’ve posted showing how you can play real hockey tho
    (Edit - quote removed)

    I really like the way you play D, I can tell you’ve mastered feathering the stick for interceptions. I can say that in the little I’ve played online, I don’t have many issues picking off passes with my PMD (which isn’t even close to built like it could be, I’m only like level 15 - don’t have many traits).

    Still think making offense more accountable would solve a lot of these complaints. I really don’t think defense needs to be much “better” game speed just needs to be slower and offense needs to be held accountable like defensemen are.

    Thanks man. Your choice of PMD is great for picking off passes and I can only assume due to your extensive experience with this game that you're very good at managing your speed and reading those plays with ease.

    I think we see eye to eye on the offensive side of things. I say all the time the CC can be defended, but it's still very prominent based on the success people have with it due to offense not having as many responsibilities as defense.


  • I know I could have tried switching to prevent this but thats not the point I'm trying to make with this clip.

    Why is it so easy for offense? How nerfed does the defensive AI have to be? Why does defense have to be perfect when offense can pass to a 100% coverd player and still have success? I here a lot about skill gap, where is the skill in this play?

  • Sega82mega
    3769 posts Member
    edited April 15
    That play I totally agree with you.

    Especially when that offensive player is on the outside/far side.
  • KidShowtime1867
    1721 posts Member
    edited April 15


    I know I could have tried switching to prevent this but thats not the point I'm trying to make with this clip.

    Why is it so easy for offense? How nerfed does the defensive AI have to be? Why does defense have to be perfect when offense can pass to a 100% coverd player and still have success? I here a lot about skill gap, where is the skill in this play?

    IMO, the pass should've been deflected by the defender.

    He was looking at the puck the whole time:

    HGJv89I.png


    He anticipated the pass and it appears he even attempts to disrupt it, but then suddenly gives up:

    5dSSRsb.gif

    This is exactly the type of cross-crease goal that shouldn't have happened.


    That being said, your switch to backskating and not using DSS allowed the player to execute the clean pass with no obstruction, so this might explain why the accuracy on the pass was so high:

    j6UwegM.gif

    But still.. the A.I. needs to deflect those passes.

    Edit: Just to add to this - I know attributes are at play here. I would imagine the defender's def. awareness is lower than the Anaheim player's Off. Awareness and this is why it played out the way it did? Maybe other factors like fatigue and hand-eye play a role too....

    I guess the question is - should the attributes of a player only be applied while the human is controlling them, and while the A.I. controls them - the attributes are levelled across the board?

    Maybe a dumb idea, I dunno.
  • Sega82mega
    3769 posts Member
    edited April 15
    100% + 100% agree you kid.

    Your such a pro with your videos.

    Professor video


  • I know I could have tried switching to prevent this but thats not the point I'm trying to make with this clip.

    Why is it so easy for offense? How nerfed does the defensive AI have to be? Why does defense have to be perfect when offense can pass to a 100% coverd player and still have success? I here a lot about skill gap, where is the skill in this play?

    IMO, the pass should've been deflected by the defender.

    He was looking at the puck the whole time:

    HGJv89I.png


    He anticipated the pass and it appears he even attempts to disrupt it, but then suddenly gives up:

    5dSSRsb.gif

    This is exactly the type of cross-crease goal that shouldn't have happened.


    That being said, your switch to backskating and not using DSS allowed the player to execute the clean pass with no obstruction, so this might explain why the accuracy on the pass was so high:

    j6UwegM.gif

    But still.. the A.I. needs to deflect those passes.

    Edit: Just to add to this - I know attributes are at play here. I would imagine the defender's def. awareness is lower than the Anaheim player's Off. Awareness and this is why it played out the way it did? Maybe other factors like fatigue and hand-eye play a role too....

    I guess the question is - should the attributes of a player only be applied while the human is controlling them, and while the A.I. controls them - the attributes are levelled across the board?

    Maybe a dumb idea, I dunno.

    This is the hardest part of trying to differentiate players imo. How do you “show” defensive awareness or offensive awareness without making routine plays like this look silly? Some players (Crosby, Stone) are just on entirely different “awareness” levels than most other players, but how do you show that? Imo, those stats need to be “sim only” stats as I don’t think they belong in gameplay. I think a vague attribute like that is great for separation when simming, but I think we need more specific and easily identifiable gameplay-only stats to “show” these differences in a more granular fashion and also in ways that make sense, rather than a routinely play being blundered due to a rating.

    Starting off with the defensive side of the puck, maybe we see a “gap depth” (thinking of FIFA’s slider here) attribute on all players. Depth = how tight this specific player will play to their mark. Guys with high depth will lead to more “stay at home” guys who sag off their marks but also don’t get beat to the net too often. Low depth players play very close to their marks and will more than likely force puck carrier LS a lot harder which leads to more risk/reward scenarios. Just thinking about this from an “awareness perspective” your elite, shutdown dmen would probably be closer to 0 (or whatever scale you use, maybe 1-10) than 10 as they have the agility, speed, and defensive stick and (or) checking attributes to make them effective when playing tight gaps because they have the attributes to recover against most players. At this level of hockey, it’s the little things, the half an inch, the half a stride that gets you beat, so we need something to affect the players in-game to put them in scenarios where they actually get beat rather than have a pass forced through them or something imo.

    On the offensive side of the puck, maybe you have “offensive awareness” or “risk taking” or whatever you want to call it, leads to players forgetting about their defensive spot (I’ve personally complained about this a lot in my many threads about the AI) more often and rather prioritizes the puck. So most forwards would have incredibly high values here. When a shot comes from the point, I’d like to not see all three of my forwards quickly skate away towards trapping/forecheck positions before possession has even been a established. To this point, maybe shot accuracy can lead to not only hitting the net, but hitting holes that users can’t necessarily aim at very well. A shooter like ovechkin will find more 6 and 7 holes with a higher shot accuracy, or maybe you have “scoring touch” as a spectate slider, than garnet Hathaway would.

    What I’m realizing while typing this is, we need tendency sliders and we just need better AI overall. The tendencies would help, but the AI still lacks getting fundamentals right as well. How many times have you guys just sprinted down the boards this game without any puck support while the CPU just slowly stays in the middle and eventually gets beat wide? They need to be much better at recognizing scenarios where they have the advantage and should try forcing the play. This would in theory lead to many broken up chances before they even get started, would lead to more dumps, but could also lead to more opportunities for individual greatness to shine offline which is sorely missing at the moment. The CPU is rarely aggressive enough to the point where you can really deke them and make a play. I think an improved AI would help both of these things go up which would be awesome.

    At the end of the day, NHL hockey like all pro sports is a game of inches and gaining subtle advantages. Player separation needs to be much improved and tendencies need to be established to have great players play great, and to have all players bring something unique to their respective game.

    We need offensive-‘minded D to play with a more risk/reward feel. We need play drivers like MacKinnon/Kuznetzov to really drive play and get defensive players to collapse and panic (another attribute idea there as I write, defensive poise or something - how quick they are to “cover”/leave their marks for another threat). We need shooters like ovechkin, stamkos to find open ice and be able to score goals others can’t via armpit holes, five holes, or even simply shooting so hard the goalie can only block and pray.

    The AI brings this game down so so much. I could love with everything else right now with the slider options I have (shoutout to TNK on OperationSports for his slider “speed glitch” mitigation technique working flawlessly) and even the team strategy options I have, but I can’t fix the under the hood things that make players simply not recognize open ice, or outnumbered scenarios on both sides, or simply prioritizing the puck in a rebound as a forward rather than sprinting back to some arbitrary spot because we don’t have possession anymore. Could literally leave every single feature/animation the same, only update the AI, and it would easily be worth a $70 upgrade.

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