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Have EA Devs Completely Given UP On The Game And Their Customers?

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  • Sega82mega
    3795 posts Member
    edited April 14
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    The lack of communication is pretty awful overall.

    The team/company won't even really acknowledge publicly (at least in in any formal or meaningful way) what things are actual bugs and what things are features working as designed but just not to our liking.

    And then there is basically no commitment to the customers for things that are bugs

    Yeah I wish the interaction between players and developers/EA could be so much more.

    I think Aljo is doing a pretty darn good job, considering it's more or less all by himself. Blueberry back him up now and then too.

    But it can't be easy to do the same job as Aljo do, especially beacuse of the lack of information. You get the feeling that the job is done behind closed doors.

    And Aljo is the messenger.

    Knowledge is power and were often left behind with not so much power, which leads to frustration.. pouring gas on fire.

    It dosent have to be often, but some words from the 'inner circle' would be good, I think that would higher the standard on our discussions too.


    *Good post kid! 👍
  • KidShowtime1867
    1731 posts Member
    edited April 14
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    The lack of communication is pretty awful overall.


    The team/company won't even really acknowledge publicly (at least in in any formal or meaningful way) what things are actual bugs and what things are features working as designed but just not to our liking.

    Just playing devil's advocate here..

    Publicly acknowledging actual bugs brings attention to them and could ultimately prove to be quite destructive. This is especially true when you consider HUT. If EA made public some actual bug that people were using to exploit certain elements of gameplay, auction house etc - it just invites players to abuse the heck out of it until it's ultimately resolved. When money is involved, this is a slipperly slope that could - in the worst-case scenario - result in some type of class action.

    Some of the 'bugs' people claim to witness (but can't provide video of) are either hard to recreate in the development environment due to having to go off of a user's explanation or aren't really 'bugs' at all.

    Again - I'm not saying everyone who's brought up an issue here is 'making it up' or anything. There've been a lot of legit problems showcased on these forums for sure.

    What I am saying it what someone considers a 'bug' might just be an issue with their perception of how things played out in any given scenario. This is why I'm always a big loser just repeating, 'show us video' on a lot of claims.

    And then there is basically no commitment to the customers for things that are bugs to have them fixed in a patch.

    While committing to fixing real-bugs would be nice, it's hard to do that when you're uncertain if a fix will result in another aspect of the game to become broken. EA Promising that "cross-crease will be fixed" in an upcoming patch would be a PR nightmare if the 'fix' resulted in the game crashing every time a certain shot was taken.

    These things get missed in QA because typically QA isn't made up of the most hardcore NHL gamers. They're hardcore gamers for sure, but if they lack decent hockey knowledge, they aren't going to try things out the way a seasoned vet would. *cough* this is my plea for a Community Playtest Environment for NHL and to be involved in that group*cough* (I take part in all UFC CPT events and it has gone a long way for their game)
    We are effectively buying into a product where we pay a $70 annual support fee, for a product with no planned release management/ bug fixes in between yearly cycles.

    If the product were used in other ways to generate revenue, I would agree with this sentiment. However, it's still an entertainment product and there's no requirement to the customer to maintain a bug fix cycle.

    "We (finally) acknowledge this is a bug... maybe this will be fixed next year... pay us $70 in September to find out..."

    I will say that although not all bugs are these massive issues that require a ton of development time, there are some issues that just can't be fixed with a patch or tuner. Sometimes the fixes that the developers envision require a lot of work from software engineers that are usually tied up working on the next iteration.

    This is in no way a radical or new idea, but the NHL changing from a yearly release cycle to something that mirrors the UFC (3-years or so) would be ideal.

    The UFC benefits from their software engineers working to keep the current title in good shape, rather than having to jump from one release to the next. Doing so results in the current product only getting minor fixes while the bulk of attention is put on the next release.



  • IceLion68
    1575 posts Member
    I've also petitioned for 'badges' next go Gamertags in-game that showcase a player's willingness/ability to score a dynamic range of different goals, rather than resorting to one play that bails them out of playing poorly overall, thus enticing players to play with some variation in their game.
    Pretty much agree with everything you said above (which I did not quote). I am not sure however a badge would be enough incentive (especially if the alternative equates to wins/rp) to entice people away from undesirable, but ultimately effective habits? Perhaps if offensive ratings, and thus RP were rewarded/awarded for creativity/variety of offensive plays?



  • Sega82mega wrote: »
    Yeah I wish the interaction between players and developers/EA could be so much more.

    I think Aljo is doing a pretty darn good job, considering it's more or less all by himself. Blueberry back him up now and then too.

    But it can't be easy to do the same job as Aljo do, especially beacuse of the lack of information. You get the feeling that the job is done behind closed doors.

    And Aljo is the messenger.

    Knowledge is power and were often left behind with not so much power, which leads to frustration.. pouring gas on fire.

    It dosent have to be often, but some words from the 'inner circle' would be good, I think that would higher the standard on our discussions too.


    *Good post kid! 👍

    Agreed. EA doesn't really have any obligation to connect with the community, and the fact Aljo keeps doing it despite all the crap they need to put up with is admirable.

    That said, in previous years when the developers would interact on specific topics - those were the days.

    It's unfortunate that too many people on these forums berated the developers and essentially just called them liars if they disputed their perception of how any given scenario played out.

    We had a really good opportunity to communicate directly to the people responsible and that opportunity was lost due to some forum members unable to reconcile with the fact that the developers know more about the game than they do.
  • IceLion68 wrote: »
    Pretty much agree with everything you said above (which I did not quote). I am not sure however a badge would be enough incentive (especially if the alternative equates to wins/rp) to entice people away from undesirable, but ultimately effective habits? Perhaps if offensive ratings, and thus RP were rewarded/awarded for creativity/variety of offensive plays?

    Yea, agreed. The 'badge' idea is more about EASHL. In terms of OVP/HUT - some RP for being dynamic in scoring choices would be ideal for sure!
  • Sega82mega
    3795 posts Member
    edited April 14
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    Yeah I wish the interaction between players and developers/EA could be so much more.

    I think Aljo is doing a pretty darn good job, considering it's more or less all by himself. Blueberry back him up now and then too.

    But it can't be easy to do the same job as Aljo do, especially beacuse of the lack of information. You get the feeling that the job is done behind closed doors.

    And Aljo is the messenger.

    Knowledge is power and were often left behind with not so much power, which leads to frustration.. pouring gas on fire.

    It dosent have to be often, but some words from the 'inner circle' would be good, I think that would higher the standard on our discussions too.


    *Good post kid! 👍



    That said, in previous years when the developers would interact on specific topics - those were the days.

    It's unfortunate that too many people on these forums berated the developers and essentially just called them liars if they disputed their perception of how any given scenario played out.

    We had a really good opportunity to communicate directly to the people responsible and that opportunity was lost due to some forum members unable to reconcile with the fact that the developers know more about the game than they do.

    Yeah I wasen't really around that time but I do understand it must feel meaningless to even try, if all you get back is, "liars!"

    Thats not to be greatful.

    But sooner or later this community deserves to get a second chance.

    Its also our responsibility to make sure to keep our 'forum friends' in line.

    The developers deserve some respect, at least to not be called liars.
  • IceLion68
    1575 posts Member
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    Pretty much agree with everything you said above (which I did not quote). I am not sure however a badge would be enough incentive (especially if the alternative equates to wins/rp) to entice people away from undesirable, but ultimately effective habits? Perhaps if offensive ratings, and thus RP were rewarded/awarded for creativity/variety of offensive plays?

    Yea, agreed. The 'badge' idea is more about EASHL. In terms of OVP/HUT - some RP for being dynamic in scoring choices would be ideal for sure!

    I am actually also referring to EASHL (I have no interest or involvement with other modes). Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by "badge", but if it's purely symbolic/bragging rights, I am not sure this is enough incentive to draw people away from using tactics that generate wins and RP.
  • What evidence is there that anyone from EA is even working on (or has been working on) anything gameplay related since October?

    We have had jerseys added and roster updates, and tons of (money making) HUT events released. But nothing gameplay related has been addressed.

    We still have an epidemic of self saucing and LT/L2ing (I know people debate how effective they are - I think they are effective - but either way they should both be removed from the game if we are somewhat going for authenticity here, and to at least remove all doubt), we have a new shortside bad angle exploit that results in a goal or two per game, and many other issues. But we get nothing.
    Since at least October (and L2/LT abuse has been a problem for YEARS). Instead of fixing that we got the lacrosse goal and fortnite dances that noone asked for.

    I think the anger is justified, maybe not at the developers because they don't decide what gets addressed, but whoever is making those decisions. Whoever decided that adding the lacrosse goal and fortnite dances is more important than addressing L2/LT abuse is the problem.
  • KidShowtime1867
    1731 posts Member
    edited April 14
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    Pretty much agree with everything you said above (which I did not quote). I am not sure however a badge would be enough incentive (especially if the alternative equates to wins/rp) to entice people away from undesirable, but ultimately effective habits? Perhaps if offensive ratings, and thus RP were rewarded/awarded for creativity/variety of offensive plays?

    Yea, agreed. The 'badge' idea is more about EASHL. In terms of OVP/HUT - some RP for being dynamic in scoring choices would be ideal for sure!

    I am actually also referring to EASHL (I have no interest or involvement with other modes). Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by "badge", but if it's purely symbolic/bragging rights, I am not sure this is enough incentive to draw people away from using tactics that generate wins and RP.

    Yea, maybe 'badge' is the wrong idea. It would be purely symbolic and for bragging rights, but I do think adding an RP incentive would go a long way too.

    Jagavekov wrote: »
    We still have an epidemic of self saucing and LT/L2ing (I know people debate how effective they are - I think they are effective - but either way they should both be removed from the game if we are somewhat going for authenticity here, and to at least remove all doubt), we have a new shortside bad angle exploit that results in a goal or two per game, and many other issues. But we get nothing.
    Since at least October (and L2/LT abuse has been a problem for YEARS). Instead of fixing that we got the lacrosse goal and fortnite dances that noone asked for.

    I think the anger is justified, maybe not at the developers because they don't decide what gets addressed, but whoever is making those decisions. Whoever decided that adding the lacrosse goal and fortnite dances is more important than addressing L2/LT abuse is the problem.

    Self-Sauce is not an exploit. If you think it is - please provide some video that showcases how self-sauce gives you an advantage in gameplay that doesn't mimic a real-life scenario where a player would use the same method to get the puck to open space and burst with speed to get around a defender.


    LT/L2 is debatable. I love that I'm able to utilize it to fake out defenders, but I'm not the player that's skating backwards in to the zone to entice a trip and exploit certain animations. That needs to be addressed for sure. I use LT/L2 (once I'm in the zone) to show the defender I have options and this typically results in them standing still and watching the puck - allowing me some space to execute a move to progress the play. Again - I'm not 'skating backwards' with the puck in an unrealistic fashion - I'm using body movement to fake out a defender to get more space.

    but to claim that self-sauce and vision control be removed from the game entirely is exactly what we shouldn't want. We don't want real-world plays to be removed entirely just because a small portion of the population gets upset when they're burned by it.

    LT/L2 needs to nerf pass accuracy and shot accuracy for more frames than it does now. Period.

    I've still yet to see a single video showcasing how self-sauce introduces unrealistic advantages to players, so claiming it should be removed is just crazy, IMO.
  • IceLion68
    1575 posts Member
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    Yeah I wish the interaction between players and developers/EA could be so much more.

    I think Aljo is doing a pretty darn good job, considering it's more or less all by himself. Blueberry back him up now and then too.

    But it can't be easy to do the same job as Aljo do, especially beacuse of the lack of information. You get the feeling that the job is done behind closed doors.

    And Aljo is the messenger.

    Knowledge is power and were often left behind with not so much power, which leads to frustration.. pouring gas on fire.

    It dosent have to be often, but some words from the 'inner circle' would be good, I think that would higher the standard on our discussions too.


    *Good post kid! 👍

    Agreed. EA doesn't really have any obligation to connect with the community, and the fact Aljo keeps doing it despite all the crap they need to put up with is admirable.

    That said, in previous years when the developers would interact on specific topics - those were the days.

    It's unfortunate that too many people on these forums berated the developers and essentially just called them liars if they disputed their perception of how any given scenario played out.

    We had a really good opportunity to communicate directly to the people responsible and that opportunity was lost due to some forum members unable to reconcile with the fact that the developers know more about the game than they do.

    I would argue that is, in fact (in part at least), a "Community Manager"'s job? Like any customer-facing job, however, I don't think they should have to engage with toxic individuals. But you can't fault the customers for wanting to know more...
  • IceLion68
    1575 posts Member
    edited April 14
    I need to stop making long posts LOL. They are a bugger to respond to...
    Just playing devil's advocate here..

    Publicly acknowledging actual bugs brings attention to them and could ultimately prove to be quite destructive. This is especially true when you consider HUT. If EA made public some actual bug that people were using to exploit certain elements of gameplay, auction house etc - it just invites players to abuse the heck out of it until it's ultimately resolved. When money is involved, this is a slipperly slope that could - in the worst-case scenario - result in some type of class action.

    Agreed. To be perfectly clear as a general rule, I would in no way advocate for a company to publicize the existence of bugs that could be exploited to cause real harm to itself or others, certainly not before the fix was implemented at least. So for the sake of moving this forward, we can remove these from this conversation. I think these sorts of bugs are pretty rare. Simple exploits that do not cause loss of money either by players or the company however would be fair game I would argue. They can be addressed without telling everyone exactly how to do it...
    Some of the 'bugs' people claim to witness (but can't provide video of) are either hard to recreate in the development environment due to having to go off of a user's explanation or aren't really 'bugs' at all.

    Again - I'm not saying everyone who's brought up an issue here is 'making it up' or anything. There've been a lot of legit problems showcased on these forums for sure.

    What I am saying it what someone considers a 'bug' might just be an issue with their perception of how things played out in any given scenario. This is why I'm always a big loser just repeating, 'show us video' on a lot of claims.

    As above, we can also remove these from the discussion. For the sake of argument let's say I am referring to actual legit "bugs". I have already mentioned that I am ok with the company differentiating between bugs and gameplay that doesnt work the way some people think it should.

    Recognizing bugs and putting them into some kind of pipeline isn't arcane practice. If you want to see how this can be "done right", look at the twitter account for another Vancouver based game studio: The Coalition:

    https://twitter.com/coalitiongears?lang=en

    j313qvdfv9wc.png

    And then there is basically no commitment to the customers for things that are bugs to have them fixed in a patch.

    While committing to fixing real-bugs would be nice, it's hard to do that when you're uncertain if a fix will result in another aspect of the game to become broken. EA Promising that "cross-crease will be fixed" in an upcoming patch would be a PR nightmare if the 'fix' resulted in the game crashing every time a certain shot was taken.

    These things get missed in QA because typically QA isn't made up of the most hardcore NHL gamers. They're hardcore gamers for sure, but if they lack decent hockey knowledge, they aren't going to try things out the way a seasoned vet would. *cough* this is my plea for a Community Playtest Environment for NHL and to be involved in that group*cough* (I take part in all UFC CPT events and it has gone a long way for their game)
    First, we will take the cross crease off the table as its debatably not a bug in the strictest sense.

    "Regression testing" is the mechanism by which a fix is tested to ensure that its implementation does not in turn break something else. It's onerous but it is done. Let's just say I am VERY familiar with software development in general . My (admittedly less informed) understanding in the games world specifically is that some studios at least actually have automated testing software that runs the code through scenarios and monitors the output. It's not all done manually by people. In any case, if something is a bug, without a trivial fix, it can still be recognized and put in a defect list... even if it's prioritization or difficulty to implement makes it never see the light of day.
    We are effectively buying into a product where we pay a $70 annual support fee, for a product with no planned release management/ bug fixes in between yearly cycles.
    If the product were used in other ways to generate revenue, I would agree with this sentiment. However, it's still an entertainment product and there's no requirement to the customer to maintain a bug fix cycle.

    I think this is arguable - I think the company has a responsibility to do what it can to deliver a bug free product (recognizing that is a desired but ultimately unachievable goal), but at the very least I would invoke the "good will" argument. I am not sure why this being an "entertainment product" would exempt it from being as close to defect free as possible.
    "We (finally) acknowledge this is a bug... maybe this will be fixed next year... pay us $70 in September to find out..."

    I will say that although not all bugs are these massive issues that require a ton of development time, there are some issues that just can't be fixed with a patch or tuner. Sometimes the fixes that the developers envision require a lot of work from software engineers that are usually tied up working on the next iteration.

    This is in no way a radical or new idea, but the NHL changing from a yearly release cycle to something that mirrors the UFC (3-years or so) would be ideal.

    The UFC benefits from their software engineers working to keep the current title in good shape, rather than having to jump from one release to the next. Doing so results in the current product only getting minor fixes while the bulk of attention is put on the next release.

    Agreed. This is what I would like to see also. I think this game (and I suspect the other annualized sports titles) suffer greatly from such an abbreviated development cycle
  • Jagavekov
    154 posts Member
    edited April 14
    Like I said, I think self-sauce is an exploit. I think it changes the angles that AI defenders take (even weakside ones if you are controlling the closest defender to the puck). I think the puck pickup animations can quickly change the location of the puck also, especially the ones where the player reaches behind to pick up the puck. I think this confuses defencemen (they don't know whether to focus on body or puck) and they are more likely to get burned and get stuck in awkward animations. I could spend hours going over replays like the Zapruder film to prove it but I don't have the time now, maybe I will at some point.

    Pretty much all of the top players do it, that should mean something. Also, it looks stupid. If EA is going to put time and effort into getting faces, jerseys, arenas, etc correct, then why have players flipping the puck to themselves all over the ice? I know what pushing the puck ahead of you with one hand on the stick looks like, and that is not it. There is sort of an animation for that now, and there was a good one for it on last-gen (that they of course took out). I also know what chipping the puck to space and retreiving it is, there is a control/animation for that as well, self saucing isn't it. It looks stupid, there is debate on whether or not it is effective, and it should be taken out. There is no good reason to have it in. It is not creative or authentic, and only adds suspicion (at the very least) of exploiting the game.

    Im glad we can agree that LT/L2 definitely needs nerfing. The vast majority of time that skating backwards with the puck is used in real life is walking the blueline at the point, or doing those half-turns to create space in one-on-one situations. I almost never see anyone use that to back defencemen off for easy zone entries, or to drive to the net, which are the primary ways it is used in this game (EXPLOITS and INAUTHENTIC). EA could have EASILY changed this, it has been at least 2 years of this being a problem. Yet we get the lacrosse goal and fortnite dances instead.

  • jrago73
    694 posts Member
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    The lack of communication is pretty awful overall.

    The team/company won't even really acknowledge publicly (at least in in any formal or meaningful way) what things are actual bugs and what things are features working as designed but just not to our liking.

    And then there is basically no commitment to the customers for things that are bugs to have them fixed in a patch.

    We are effectively buying into a product where we pay a $70 annual support fee, for a product with no planned release management/ bug fixes in between yearly cycles.

    "We (finally) acknowledge this is a bug... maybe this will be fixed next year... pay us $70 in September to find out..."

    I agree with most of what you say but at the same time its our fault as consumers that we keep "paying 70 bucks for a roster update".

    If a lot of the player base refused to buy a game and fake cards until changes/fixes were made then the industry as a whole would be much better, let alone ea sports titles. $ is EA's language, they are a company so they are largely only worried about profits and shareholders.

    As for the lack of communication here, just don't respond to the trolls. If people can't be respectful then they don't deserve a response. I think I can speak for a lot of us when I say we appreciated the breakdowns even if we did so silently.
  • It would be nice if there was at least some feedback to some of the problems people have reported. Even if it's just at a "it's intentional behavior"\"it could be addressed with a tuner"\"it's a bug" level. Radio silence after release just doesn't fly in modern software development.

  • Sega82mega
    3795 posts Member
    edited April 14
    $ ' may be EA but the developers works for EA as much as' we' do.

    No one would be here if it wasen't for EA.

    But I think there's a difference between EA as a big company and the individual thats there to do their best job.

    As a developer to NHL you gotta see it as a form of art, and their must be some form of work ethic/pride in things you do, an expression.

    In the big picture - yes it's all about money - but I dont think thats true on every level. Were also humans - that wanna please other humans.
  • KidShowtime1867
    1731 posts Member
    edited April 14
    It would be nice if there was at least some feedback to some of the problems people have reported. Even if it's just at a "it's intentional behavior"\"it could be addressed with a tuner"\"it's a bug" level. Radio silence after release just doesn't fly in modern software development.

    Agreed. They were doing awesome breakdowns but people kept complaining NHL_Dev's responses were 'too technical' and continued to imply they were being untruthful.
  • Sega82mega
    3795 posts Member
    edited April 14
    I cant imagine how hard it would be if there was a whole community that was made in the purpose of discussing my job I do on days.

    And every day I got to hear that I suck, I should be replaced, im only in for it for the money.

    That would get to me.

    Probebly lucky I am what I am.

    But of course, working for EA as a NHL developer, makes you almost like a public person, and I guess they are pretty use to handle the pressure.
  • Agreed. They were doing awesome breakdowns but people kept complaining NHL_Dev's responses were 'too technical' and continued to imply they were being untruthful.

    Yes, I found those really helpful in understanding why certain things that were happening in-game happened they way they did. Even when I didn't necessarily agree that things should work the way they did, at least I had a better understanding of the developers intent and could offer constructive feedback.

    This is an EA-owned platform though. If there are hostile or disingenuous posters that are creating an environment where the devs don't feel comfortable it's completely within EA's power to remove them. The idea that because some posters don't interact with the devs in an adult manner shouldn't mean that they just stop communicating with the rest of us.

  • This is an EA-owned platform though. If there are hostile or disingenuous posters that are creating an environment where the devs don't feel comfortable it's completely within EA's power to remove them. The idea that because some posters don't interact with the devs in an adult manner shouldn't mean that they just stop communicating with the rest of us.

    Very good point. I got more attention from moderators for challenging users to prove their points than other members got for literally calling the developers of the game 'trash' and 'liars'.

    I guess "they're allowed to have their opinions" whereas I was "being combative". The latter is true - I can be obtuse - but the if the former was being addressed with just as much vigor, maybe we'd still have some developer interaction around here.
  • Numerous times I get into games I am winning and all of a sudden I lose, after my players skate like a bunch of morons! Backside turned away from their checks ( mostly defense ) Constant glitch goals from the toxic players who ruin this game, exploiting everything to get the W. We are told time and time again " Play perfect human controlled defense " Yet how are supposed to when the AI is dumber than a stick to where they decide lets chase the puck carrier and forget about defense. Now we have to decide stop the short side glitch from the blocker or glove, or defend the cross-crease. Either way they are going to score because the AI goalies are trash!

    It's all the same thing! Skillzone, D-Zone Trap, self-sauce pass glitch to throw off defenders, then LT by the boards. If not rag the neutral zone to confuse the AI, then look for cross-crease goals 99% of the time.

    Pucks go through sticks! Skates go through them too. This isn't hockey! It is Fortnite on ice! Just look at your top plays of the week! 99% are exploiters abusing the mechanics in this poorly made game! Seems Devs are not even bothering fixing the issues within this game, and much rather ignore their customers, while the community manager gets threatened on daily basis, due to the lack of production in this game! It isn't even his fault! Come on! We are so far in this game, and you are telling me a jersey update is all they can do? I work in game development! I know how difficult it is! Although you can easily fix certain problems with just a few people!

    Moral of the story, we as customers are tired of the lackluster effort and many are not considering buying NHL 22. Great job! Way to ruin EA NHL!

    They've barely put any effort into this year's game. It is infuriating.
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