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Gameplay Devs update

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  • Sega82mega
    3815 posts Member
    edited May 13
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Then I started working here and gained a ton of insight into the mechanics of the game and why things happen. I then was able to put the majority of the blame on myself and became a better player because of it. Not that the game doesn't have its issues, but when you have a better understanding of how things work, it's a lot easier to be accountable for your own play.
    <whispers> Makes these insights into deep dive videos :D
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Again, that's not to say the game is perfect by any means and we agree with much of the feedback we get here. Whether or not we agree though, changes are typically slow to happen. Such is the nature of game development. In the meantime, having discussions here be less toxic is the best way to have your voices heard. I also need to make sure I'm doing my part to not contribute to said toxicity with posts that can potentially be taken differently than intended. That's on me and something I need to be more aware of.
    Speaking for myself, I am not sure it is coming across that you folks "agree with much of the feedback" you get here. To be certain, we rarely to never hear about anything that is actually making it's way into the game. This is where I think more openness would be helpful (a la the examples I cite above.

    You coming here and talking about this is a great step forward though I think. For my part I will commit to trying to be candid without being toxic.

    We can take away LT'ing and cross-crease passes, but the guys that are successful with them are still going to be successful without.

    Thats probebly (or is) true, but only to a certain point.

    Because the 'meta' has been pretty much the same, for a long time, and that changes are typically slow to happen - has lead to not so much difference between skill-levels/skill gaps.

    If I take this years game as an example - I have read about many upset players that claiming that they use to be div1 players and are now struggling to survive in div4.

    Why is that?

    I think its because it takes a diffrent kinda skill to be good in 21 then any of the previous games in this generation.

    I think its a difference between having the 'touch for hockey' and just having fast fingers - to learn successful combos with - that works 'everytime' - dependent on how fast you can execute them.

    The typical HUT player dosent seem to care/have the acknowledge to play defense.

    Which of course makes me really curious to know how the game and it's elite - would look - If defense would come to play a much bigger role - then it already does.

    I think that could draw a new skill-map, were probebly many of the people thats good now, would still be good - but I wouldn’t bet too much on it. Alot of the elite would fall behind - when the game step up to another level and became more advanced.

    Thats what I think.. Ofc im not sure of this.

    *if strategies would mean alot more - and your mind will be more importen for the outcome - I think the boundaries for the skill-gap would be much higher.
  • I get that the game has to be marketable to the LCD, but I’d hope people who want to play a more realistic version of hockey will be able to do so more consistently offline and just be able to do so online. I limit myself to 1-2 games a session because the AI drives me up a wall. I’m perfectly content continuing offline at this pace, but it’d unreal to see the AI get a good facelift to a point where I can play 4, 5, 6 games a row of time permits.

    I really think the “hardcore” community would really appreciate just being able to play custom games with custom sliders. People like me don’t care about ranked or fortnite dances or flat brim hats, or showing off a division patch on my jersey, I just want to play hockey. It’s about the process for me and I assume for others like me as well.

    I feel like playing against A.I. is what drives much of your frustration with this game.

    Have you ever played on an EASHL club with friends and played full 6v6 games? It's insanely fun, to be honest. I find it far more fun than OVP, HUT, etc.

    Well, you’re not wrong as I mainly play offline haha! And yes, I’ve played a few club games in 19-21 with my old LG buddies I still talk to, but the online meta is just so incredibly boring to me. Way too fast for any real hockey to take place, same plays are tried over and over again because they eventually work and nothing else outside of the box really does, it’s just not a rewarding experience to me. 18 was my last competitive season in LG + pro series and I haven’t missed it for a second.

    Idk, the goals are just all the same, everyone plays the same way, there’s nothing overly dynamic or “unpredictable” about the experience. It’s a very shallow experience to me and I’m one that has kind of given up on competitive gaming. Rather would just play the game the way I want.
  • IceLion68
    1575 posts Member
    edited May 13
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    While we can be in agreement, we also want to try to offer a solution or explanation for current issues. It also opens discussion so we can gather good feedback over time. The cross-crease is a good example. That's not something we as CMs can change, but we can gather your feedback as well as discuss how you can defend it. That doesn't mean we feel it's perfect and doesn't need any attention.
    Understood - I think maybe what I am getting at is that clarification could sometimes be more succinctly and openly made and discussions around BOTH aspects are welcome and appreciated.

    e.g."Here is how this works, why YOU weren't successful and what perhaps YOU could do to be more successful... and here is what WE are looking at with regards to this and how WE think it could be better."

    Currently some of this might even exist but it's not easy to find and is never really formalized. Or if it is, it isn't obvious where to go to find it.
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Personally, I prefer to adapt to the changes in each year's game. That lets me enjoy it more.
    I get that. For me after my knee jerk reaction of "THIS IS BROKEN!!!", I do try and look at whether (and to what extent) the change I am lamenting is reasonable and what adjustments I might have to make to my play to account for the change. Gap control and skater speed/acceleration on transitions this year has been a good example. I have adjusted and it's "OK". I do think though that generally and often the truth of of these things lies somewhere between "it's absolutely fine" and "it's absolutely broken". This is why I like the developer playlist idea.
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    In the end, regardless of how realistic the game plays like its real-world counterpart, those that are highly skilled are going to still be at the top of the leaderboards. We can take away LT'ing and cross-crease passes, but the guys that are successful with them are still going to be successful without.
    Of course. I don't begrudge people/teams who play better than me/my team beating me/us.

    But there is:
    - hockey skill/iq (good)
    - controller skills - e.g. pulling off dekes, poke checks etc (also good)
    - skill at exploiting broken or questionable mechanics of the game that are difficult to counter (not good)

    I am ok being beat by guys who "play better hockey".
    I am grudgingly OK being beat in situations where the guy obviously deked me out of my shorts
    I am NOT OK with getting beat by guys who simply "game the system" by exploiting the game's weak spots - like with the LT thing or improbable cross creases, glitch goals etc.

    I am not sure how many people in categories one and or two also practice the third - I suspect it's higher than I wish, but I still think it's an important distinction; I guess what I am saying is let's go through this exercise and we will truly see who can be successful with vs without them?

    The ability to exploit the game's shortcomings is not any kind skill gap I would want to reward.
  • Follisimo
    1185 posts Member
    edited May 13
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Then I started working here and gained a ton of insight into the mechanics of the game and why things happen. I then was able to put the majority of the blame on myself and became a better player because of it. Not that the game doesn't have its issues, but when you have a better understanding of how things work, it's a lot easier to be accountable for your own play.
    <whispers> Makes these insights into deep dive videos :D
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Again, that's not to say the game is perfect by any means and we agree with much of the feedback we get here. Whether or not we agree though, changes are typically slow to happen. Such is the nature of game development. In the meantime, having discussions here be less toxic is the best way to have your voices heard. I also need to make sure I'm doing my part to not contribute to said toxicity with posts that can potentially be taken differently than intended. That's on me and something I need to be more aware of.
    Speaking for myself, I am not sure it is coming across that you folks "agree with much of the feedback" you get here. To be certain, we rarely to never hear about anything that is actually making it's way into the game. This is where I think more openness would be helpful (a la the examples I cite above.

    You coming here and talking about this is a great step forward though I think. For my part I will commit to trying to be candid without being toxic.

    We can take away LT'ing and cross-crease passes, but the guys that are successful with them are still going to be successful without.

    Thats probebly (or is) true, but only to a certain point.

    Because the 'meta' has been pretty much the same, for a long time, and that changes are typically slow to happen - has lead to not so much difference between skill-levels/skill gaps.

    If I take this years game as an example - I have read about many upset players that claiming that they use to be div1 players and are now struggling to survive in div4.

    Why is that?

    I think its because it takes a diffrent kinda skill to be good in 21 then any of the previous games in this generation.

    I think its a difference between having the 'touch for hockey' and just having fast fingers - to learn successful combos with - that works 'everytime' - dependent on how fast you can execute them.

    The typical HUT player dosent seem to care/have the acknowledge to play defense.

    Which of course makes me really curious to know how the game and it's elite - would look - If defense would come to play a much bigger role - then it already does.

    I think that could draw a new skill-map, were probebly many of the people thats good now, would still be good - but I wouldn’t bet too much on it. Alot of the elite would fall behind - when the game step up to another level and became more advanced.

    Thats what I think.. Ofc im not sure of this.

    *if strategies would mean alot more - and your mind will be more importen for the outcome - I think the boundaries for the skill-gap would be much higher.

    Remember the year people complained poke checks and such were too good? The same people were still on top. Just remember this...when it comes to a competitive scene you go with the metas that get found. Adaptation is in their bones because winning is what matters. It's why you see less shots taken usually unless they are in certain spots. They try various things over and over til they find the games mechanics and how to utilize it for success. Even simulation can be abused when AI is involved...especially in a game where it is trying to compensate for where you position yourself and such.
    Post edited by Follisimo on

  • EA_Aljo
    3061 posts EA Community Manager
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    While we can be in agreement, we also want to try to offer a solution or explanation for current issues. It also opens discussion so we can gather good feedback over time. The cross-crease is a good example. That's not something we as CMs can change, but we can gather your feedback as well as discuss how you can defend it. That doesn't mean we feel it's perfect and doesn't need any attention.
    Understood - I think maybe what I am getting at is that clarification could sometimes be more succinctly and openly made and discussions around BOTH aspects are welcome and appreciated.

    e.g."Here is how this works, why YOU weren't successful and what perhaps YOU could do to be more successful... and here is what WE are looking at with regards to this and how WE think it could be better."

    Currently some of this might even exist but it's not easy to find and is never really formalized. Or if it is, it isn't obvious where to go to find it.
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Personally, I prefer to adapt to the changes in each year's game. That lets me enjoy it more. In the end, regardless of how realistic the game plays like its real-world counterpart,
    I get that. For me after my knee jerk reaction of "THIS IS BROKEN!!!", I do try and look at whether (and to what extent) the change I am lamenting is reasonable and what adjustments I might have to make to my play to account for the change. Gap control and skater speed/acceleration on transitions this year has been a good example. I have adjusted and it's "OK". I do think though that generally and often the truth of of these things lies somewhere between "it's absolutely fine" and "it's absolutely broken". This is why I like the developer playlist idea.
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    those that are highly skilled are going to still be at the top of the leaderboards. We can take away LT'ing and cross-crease passes, but the guys that are successful with them are still going to be successful without.
    Of course. I don't begrudge people/teams who play better than me/my team beating me/us.

    But there is:
    - hockey skill/iq (good)
    - controller skills - e.g. pulling off dekes, poke checks etc (also good)
    - skill at exploiting broken or questionable mechanics of the game that are difficult to counter (not good)

    I am ok being beat by guys who "play better hockey".
    I am grudgingly OK being beat in situations where the guy obviously deked me out of my shorts
    I am NOT OK with getting beat by guys who simply "game the system" by exploiting the game's weak spots - like with the LT thing or improbable cross creases, glitch goals etc.

    I am not sure how many people in categories one and or two also practice the third - I suspect it's higher than I wish, but I still think it's an important distinction; I guess what I am saying is let's go through this exercise and we will truly see who can be successful with vs without them?

    The ability to exploit the game's shortcomings is not any kind skill gap I would want to reward.

    I definitely like the idea of saying what we are looking at and how it could be better. I hope that's something we can do in the future. For now, I think your best bet is to provide constructive feedback to Ben on Twitter. He sometimes gives this kind of insight.

    I'd love to see the game be more dependent on hockey skill, but there are also varying degrees of that. While I'd like to see the LT'ing less effective, I have to give credit to the guys that are really good with it and are able to weave through traffic in EASHL games. It's one thing to backskate over the blue line or cut down the boards and backskate to the slot, but when one guy utilizes it in their opponent's zone to get past multiple defenders for a good scoring chance, I have to give them credit. It's not an easy thing to do and requires being more skilled. That's part of this being a video game. It's never going to be a 1:1 recreation of the real sport. Like most any game, there's always going to be ways to gain an unforeseen advantage through exploiting game mechanics. It's on us to minimize and remove those as much as possible, but that also can cause bigger issues that may need to wait for future titles to resolve.

    Going up against the guys that exploit weak spots can also be defended. I'm not saying that makes for a fun game though so don't get me wrong there. If they are using the same move over and over again, they've found something you have trouble defending. Any good coach is going to point out the other team's weaknesses use those to their advantage. For example, if you're constantly giving up the short side, they know you're having trouble defending it so they're going to keep doing it. While it might be one of the easier goals to score, it only happens if you let them get that shot off.
  • Follisimo
    1185 posts Member
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    While we can be in agreement, we also want to try to offer a solution or explanation for current issues. It also opens discussion so we can gather good feedback over time. The cross-crease is a good example. That's not something we as CMs can change, but we can gather your feedback as well as discuss how you can defend it. That doesn't mean we feel it's perfect and doesn't need any attention.
    Understood - I think maybe what I am getting at is that clarification could sometimes be more succinctly and openly made and discussions around BOTH aspects are welcome and appreciated.

    e.g."Here is how this works, why YOU weren't successful and what perhaps YOU could do to be more successful... and here is what WE are looking at with regards to this and how WE think it could be better."

    Currently some of this might even exist but it's not easy to find and is never really formalized. Or if it is, it isn't obvious where to go to find it.
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Personally, I prefer to adapt to the changes in each year's game. That lets me enjoy it more. In the end, regardless of how realistic the game plays like its real-world counterpart,
    I get that. For me after my knee jerk reaction of "THIS IS BROKEN!!!", I do try and look at whether (and to what extent) the change I am lamenting is reasonable and what adjustments I might have to make to my play to account for the change. Gap control and skater speed/acceleration on transitions this year has been a good example. I have adjusted and it's "OK". I do think though that generally and often the truth of of these things lies somewhere between "it's absolutely fine" and "it's absolutely broken". This is why I like the developer playlist idea.
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    those that are highly skilled are going to still be at the top of the leaderboards. We can take away LT'ing and cross-crease passes, but the guys that are successful with them are still going to be successful without.
    Of course. I don't begrudge people/teams who play better than me/my team beating me/us.

    But there is:
    - hockey skill/iq (good)
    - controller skills - e.g. pulling off dekes, poke checks etc (also good)
    - skill at exploiting broken or questionable mechanics of the game that are difficult to counter (not good)

    I am ok being beat by guys who "play better hockey".
    I am grudgingly OK being beat in situations where the guy obviously deked me out of my shorts
    I am NOT OK with getting beat by guys who simply "game the system" by exploiting the game's weak spots - like with the LT thing or improbable cross creases, glitch goals etc.

    I am not sure how many people in categories one and or two also practice the third - I suspect it's higher than I wish, but I still think it's an important distinction; I guess what I am saying is let's go through this exercise and we will truly see who can be successful with vs without them?

    The ability to exploit the game's shortcomings is not any kind skill gap I would want to reward.

    I definitely like the idea of saying what we are looking at and how it could be better. I hope that's something we can do in the future. For now, I think your best bet is to provide constructive feedback to Ben on Twitter. He sometimes gives this kind of insight.

    I'd love to see the game be more dependent on hockey skill, but there are also varying degrees of that. While I'd like to see the LT'ing less effective, I have to give credit to the guys that are really good with it and are able to weave through traffic in EASHL games. It's one thing to backskate over the blue line or cut down the boards and backskate to the slot, but when one guy utilizes it in their opponent's zone to get past multiple defenders for a good scoring chance, I have to give them credit. It's not an easy thing to do and requires being more skilled. That's part of this being a video game. It's never going to be a 1:1 recreation of the real sport. Like most any game, there's always going to be ways to gain an unforeseen advantage through exploiting game mechanics. It's on us to minimize and remove those as much as possible, but that also can cause bigger issues that may need to wait for future titles to resolve.

    Going up against the guys that exploit weak spots can also be defended. I'm not saying that makes for a fun game though so don't get me wrong there. If they are using the same move over and over again, they've found something you have trouble defending. Any good coach is going to point out the other team's weaknesses use those to their advantage. For example, if you're constantly giving up the short side, they know you're having trouble defending it so they're going to keep doing it. While it might be one of the easier goals to score, it only happens if you let them get that shot off.

    The bolded part is what so many hate. But like you said they are out to win and if they see the chances they are gonna take it over and over until you force them to change it up. Your fun idea might not be the same as their fun idea. When it comes to online play in almost any game it's competitive and you want to always win. If you don't take advantage of everything available you hinder yourself at the sake of playing "legit" in your eyes.

  • EA_Aljo
    3061 posts EA Community Manager
    Follisimo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    While we can be in agreement, we also want to try to offer a solution or explanation for current issues. It also opens discussion so we can gather good feedback over time. The cross-crease is a good example. That's not something we as CMs can change, but we can gather your feedback as well as discuss how you can defend it. That doesn't mean we feel it's perfect and doesn't need any attention.
    Understood - I think maybe what I am getting at is that clarification could sometimes be more succinctly and openly made and discussions around BOTH aspects are welcome and appreciated.

    e.g."Here is how this works, why YOU weren't successful and what perhaps YOU could do to be more successful... and here is what WE are looking at with regards to this and how WE think it could be better."

    Currently some of this might even exist but it's not easy to find and is never really formalized. Or if it is, it isn't obvious where to go to find it.
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Personally, I prefer to adapt to the changes in each year's game. That lets me enjoy it more. In the end, regardless of how realistic the game plays like its real-world counterpart,
    I get that. For me after my knee jerk reaction of "THIS IS BROKEN!!!", I do try and look at whether (and to what extent) the change I am lamenting is reasonable and what adjustments I might have to make to my play to account for the change. Gap control and skater speed/acceleration on transitions this year has been a good example. I have adjusted and it's "OK". I do think though that generally and often the truth of of these things lies somewhere between "it's absolutely fine" and "it's absolutely broken". This is why I like the developer playlist idea.
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    those that are highly skilled are going to still be at the top of the leaderboards. We can take away LT'ing and cross-crease passes, but the guys that are successful with them are still going to be successful without.
    Of course. I don't begrudge people/teams who play better than me/my team beating me/us.

    But there is:
    - hockey skill/iq (good)
    - controller skills - e.g. pulling off dekes, poke checks etc (also good)
    - skill at exploiting broken or questionable mechanics of the game that are difficult to counter (not good)

    I am ok being beat by guys who "play better hockey".
    I am grudgingly OK being beat in situations where the guy obviously deked me out of my shorts
    I am NOT OK with getting beat by guys who simply "game the system" by exploiting the game's weak spots - like with the LT thing or improbable cross creases, glitch goals etc.

    I am not sure how many people in categories one and or two also practice the third - I suspect it's higher than I wish, but I still think it's an important distinction; I guess what I am saying is let's go through this exercise and we will truly see who can be successful with vs without them?

    The ability to exploit the game's shortcomings is not any kind skill gap I would want to reward.

    I definitely like the idea of saying what we are looking at and how it could be better. I hope that's something we can do in the future. For now, I think your best bet is to provide constructive feedback to Ben on Twitter. He sometimes gives this kind of insight.

    I'd love to see the game be more dependent on hockey skill, but there are also varying degrees of that. While I'd like to see the LT'ing less effective, I have to give credit to the guys that are really good with it and are able to weave through traffic in EASHL games. It's one thing to backskate over the blue line or cut down the boards and backskate to the slot, but when one guy utilizes it in their opponent's zone to get past multiple defenders for a good scoring chance, I have to give them credit. It's not an easy thing to do and requires being more skilled. That's part of this being a video game. It's never going to be a 1:1 recreation of the real sport. Like most any game, there's always going to be ways to gain an unforeseen advantage through exploiting game mechanics. It's on us to minimize and remove those as much as possible, but that also can cause bigger issues that may need to wait for future titles to resolve.

    Going up against the guys that exploit weak spots can also be defended. I'm not saying that makes for a fun game though so don't get me wrong there. If they are using the same move over and over again, they've found something you have trouble defending. Any good coach is going to point out the other team's weaknesses use those to their advantage. For example, if you're constantly giving up the short side, they know you're having trouble defending it so they're going to keep doing it. While it might be one of the easier goals to score, it only happens if you let them get that shot off.

    The bolded part is what so many hate. But like you said they are out to win and if they see the chances they are gonna take it over and over until you force them to change it up. Your fun idea might not be the same as their fun idea. When it comes to online play in almost any game it's competitive and you want to always win. If you don't take advantage of everything available you hinder yourself at the sake of playing "legit" in your eyes.

    Fun can be subjective, but I agree. I personally don't like the win at all costs mentality that so many people have today. It takes away from the legit hockey play that I'd rather experience, but a person's desire to play that way isn't exactly something we can control. We can probably make it more difficult, but that would also come at the expense of making the realistic play less fun. Again, LT'ing as an example, there are times it's a skilled move. Making changes to this ability could help stop it from being exploited, but could also stop it from being useful as a part of real hockey play. So, it would need to be more finely tuned. Which, isn't a quick and easy process.
  • Sega82mega
    3815 posts Member
    edited May 13
    Beacuse I know it's impossible to win every game I play - I think its more importen it's fun to loose - don't get me wrong - there's never fun to loose - but in this game it's a pure nightmare to loose.

    There’s something very un-clean in this game that makes it feel like you're opponent do everything in he's power to use 'exploits' against you to win.

    Winning is okey in this game - but losing is terrible - If that just could change - I think people would more easy 'accept' the game and the loss.

    I have basically let up cross creases all game-year long...I mean seriously, it's crazy, when you think about it.

    Just that itself, probably drives everyone nuts.

    I dont know how.. But it needs to be more variety.. In the gameplay/goals.

    *best example I could come up with, regarding let up cross creases all year long - it's like you would get killed by a 'camper' in the back, everytime you went for a round of battlefield or whatever war game you can think of.

    And I mean - everytime...

    Post edited by Sega82mega on
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Follisimo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    While we can be in agreement, we also want to try to offer a solution or explanation for current issues. It also opens discussion so we can gather good feedback over time. The cross-crease is a good example. That's not something we as CMs can change, but we can gather your feedback as well as discuss how you can defend it. That doesn't mean we feel it's perfect and doesn't need any attention.
    Understood - I think maybe what I am getting at is that clarification could sometimes be more succinctly and openly made and discussions around BOTH aspects are welcome and appreciated.

    e.g."Here is how this works, why YOU weren't successful and what perhaps YOU could do to be more successful... and here is what WE are looking at with regards to this and how WE think it could be better."

    Currently some of this might even exist but it's not easy to find and is never really formalized. Or if it is, it isn't obvious where to go to find it.
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Personally, I prefer to adapt to the changes in each year's game. That lets me enjoy it more. In the end, regardless of how realistic the game plays like its real-world counterpart,
    I get that. For me after my knee jerk reaction of "THIS IS BROKEN!!!", I do try and look at whether (and to what extent) the change I am lamenting is reasonable and what adjustments I might have to make to my play to account for the change. Gap control and skater speed/acceleration on transitions this year has been a good example. I have adjusted and it's "OK". I do think though that generally and often the truth of of these things lies somewhere between "it's absolutely fine" and "it's absolutely broken". This is why I like the developer playlist idea.
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    those that are highly skilled are going to still be at the top of the leaderboards. We can take away LT'ing and cross-crease passes, but the guys that are successful with them are still going to be successful without.
    Of course. I don't begrudge people/teams who play better than me/my team beating me/us.

    But there is:
    - hockey skill/iq (good)
    - controller skills - e.g. pulling off dekes, poke checks etc (also good)
    - skill at exploiting broken or questionable mechanics of the game that are difficult to counter (not good)

    I am ok being beat by guys who "play better hockey".
    I am grudgingly OK being beat in situations where the guy obviously deked me out of my shorts
    I am NOT OK with getting beat by guys who simply "game the system" by exploiting the game's weak spots - like with the LT thing or improbable cross creases, glitch goals etc.

    I am not sure how many people in categories one and or two also practice the third - I suspect it's higher than I wish, but I still think it's an important distinction; I guess what I am saying is let's go through this exercise and we will truly see who can be successful with vs without them?

    The ability to exploit the game's shortcomings is not any kind skill gap I would want to reward.

    I definitely like the idea of saying what we are looking at and how it could be better. I hope that's something we can do in the future. For now, I think your best bet is to provide constructive feedback to Ben on Twitter. He sometimes gives this kind of insight.

    I'd love to see the game be more dependent on hockey skill, but there are also varying degrees of that. While I'd like to see the LT'ing less effective, I have to give credit to the guys that are really good with it and are able to weave through traffic in EASHL games. It's one thing to backskate over the blue line or cut down the boards and backskate to the slot, but when one guy utilizes it in their opponent's zone to get past multiple defenders for a good scoring chance, I have to give them credit. It's not an easy thing to do and requires being more skilled. That's part of this being a video game. It's never going to be a 1:1 recreation of the real sport. Like most any game, there's always going to be ways to gain an unforeseen advantage through exploiting game mechanics. It's on us to minimize and remove those as much as possible, but that also can cause bigger issues that may need to wait for future titles to resolve.

    Going up against the guys that exploit weak spots can also be defended. I'm not saying that makes for a fun game though so don't get me wrong there. If they are using the same move over and over again, they've found something you have trouble defending. Any good coach is going to point out the other team's weaknesses use those to their advantage. For example, if you're constantly giving up the short side, they know you're having trouble defending it so they're going to keep doing it. While it might be one of the easier goals to score, it only happens if you let them get that shot off.

    The bolded part is what so many hate. But like you said they are out to win and if they see the chances they are gonna take it over and over until you force them to change it up. Your fun idea might not be the same as their fun idea. When it comes to online play in almost any game it's competitive and you want to always win. If you don't take advantage of everything available you hinder yourself at the sake of playing "legit" in your eyes.

    Fun can be subjective, but I agree. I personally don't like the win at all costs mentality that so many people have today. It takes away from the legit hockey play that I'd rather experience, but a person's desire to play that way isn't exactly something we can control. We can probably make it more difficult, but that would also come at the expense of making the realistic play less fun. Again, LT'ing as an example, there are times it's a skilled move. Making changes to this ability could help stop it from being exploited, but could also stop it from being useful as a part of real hockey play. So, it would need to be more finely tuned. Which, isn't a quick and easy process.

    From my testing, and granted I can only do human v CPU, “realistic” plays are not only more possible with my sliders, they’re actually more rewarded too so I’m not buying that altering the default sliders to make exploiting the game harder will also hinder realistic hockey. I’ve seen a dreadful amount of “dynamic” goals on default sliders/goalie attributes at all-stat. Unless it’s a “glitch” spot or a one-timer, the puck is not going in plain and simple. It doesn’t encourage quick shots, shots through screens, or just good puck movement and shooting, or shooting when you’re actually given a little space with a good shooter. There’s just not a lot of thinking/planning when playing this game and it really dumbs down the sport. The beauty of hockey is that there’s guys good enough to think 3-4 plays ahead which is just not really well represented with the current meta where everyone whips around the rink and blindly reacting/using your twitch skill can get you out of many situations that should be rather difficult IRL to escape from even if you realized it at the last second.

    I guess we’d need to define “realistic” hockey to try and have some sort of objective-ish discussion lol. For me, I obviously have some “house rules” I use to not exploit the AI too bad on stretch passes up the boards, or coming out from behind the net and going far side because the CPU gets confused on who should pressure the carrier, but when it comes to just a straight-up 1v1 scenarios, I purposely make my sliders in a way that prevents me from even exploiting an LT move in the first place, but at the same time, I find my self using LT in many relevant and realistic scenarios all over the ice. I also find that if I’m completely flat-footed, something that top-level “CHEL” guys do all the time to change directions on a dime, using LT will be rather tedious as it is IRL if you’re trying to create separation. In real hockey, you need momentum to make radial cuts and obviously having momentum means you get up to speed quicker than someone with none which is a skill on its own right? Knowing when to sprint, when to glide, when to curl, when to stop could all present more of a skill gap and situational awareness gap if acceleration levels are much more realistic and lower than the default setting.

    I think we can all agree that the current floating feeling of LT that allows for complete direction changes and stop and start skating maneuvers is 100% NOT realistic if we’re being honest with ourselves. With the high, end-to-end viewing angles every uses in this game, the plays should look a LOT slower if it were based on realism. The game should really feel slow from the viewpoint everyone uses online, but we all know that’s not the case currently. The board bouncing, the RS-aided radical cuts that also draw trips is weird fashion, the perfect laser passing that doesn’t have any accountability, the rocket backhand passes, the constant LT abusers + simple LT-press spin moves with again, no accountability makes for a very hectic and subjectively gross/ugly game imo.

    TL;DR: mitigating common/known “exploits” will not make playing realistic hockey harder, on the contrary, it will make it not only easier to play realistically but also would make realistic reads/plays more necessary to have success.

  • Sega82mega
    3815 posts Member
    Yeah Bf1, you sometimes get the feeling that it's a game for children.

    That only can think 1 play ahead.

    On defense - "I run against the puck carrier"

    On offens -"i run against the net"

    Nothing more, nothing less.
  • Sega82mega wrote: »
    Yeah Bf1, you sometimes get the feeling that it's a game for children.

    That only can think 1 play ahead.

    On defense - "I run against the puck carrier"

    On offens -"i run against the net"

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    That’s literally how the top 6’s teams play. That plus they have designed played like it’s basketball. Both kind of prove that this game online doesn’t really play very dynamically. Everything is rather predictable and boring.
  • I honestly think hitting should be brought back to the way it was in 14, hitting in 14 was 👍👌, but then people said it was, "too good and op." Which I disagree with, it helped slow the game down. Hitting got a major nerf after that to give skaters a, "safe zone" now hitting and forechecking is hard to do consistently. When I can get the forechecking working the way it's supposed to its nice, but it's hit or miss.. (no pun intended... lol). Putting on a good forecheck should bump players off the puck occasionally, not rarely like it does now. Now skaters lose the puck by people just skating into them..
  • I honestly think hitting should be brought back to the way it was in 14, hitting in 14 was 👍👌, but then people said it was, "too good and op." Which I disagree with, it helped slow the game down. Hitting got a major nerf after that to give skaters a, "safe zone" now hitting and forechecking is hard to do consistently. When I can get the forechecking working the way it's supposed to its nice, but it's hit or miss.. (no pun intended... lol). Putting on a good forecheck should bump players off the puck occasionally, not rarely like it does now. Now skaters lose the puck by people just skating into them..

    The online game just isn’t hockey lol. Seems like they want Tony hawks pro skater hockey where if you do a button combo right, it should be successful. If you glide in the same exact spot time and time again, it should successful and all other attempts at performing a shot should fail (saved).

    We can use vague terms like “realism would make other parts of the game not work right/fun” but where? Like, I’d like to actually read examples of this because I feel like adding accountability for offensive players is being conflated with let’s make all stick interactions a thing and everything turns into a sloppy mess. There’s a huge difference between making physical interactions happen to a fault and simply using the tuners we’ve all been provided to create an experience that rewards more than a few shots, a few plays which in turn makes everyone play boring, uninspired, robotic hockey because it’s not worth doing anything outside of the norm. How is this hockey? We’re not asking for a 1:1 representation but like a 1:412 representation of it would be nice (and is more than doable already, I should add.)

    Genuinely asking for those who believe the current game is actually fun online (the one where you can watch telegraphed passes go right by stationary defenders who are looking at the puck) how forcing some sense of realistic momentum and accountability/unpredictability would make the game worse?

    How would not being able to practice LT moves for an hour (about the max time it takes to learn how to use LT effectively when combined with a big-body build...it really isn’t hard lol) to gain completely mastery of how incredibly overpowered it is with the right build break this game?

    How would making screens actually effective break something else in this game?

    First shots scoring from a prime area that didn’t involve a 3 second glide at the right angle would break something else in this game?

    Human goalies actually being able to move and then being forced to actually play angles and move would break this game?

    Low-speed hitting actually being effective which would actually promote puck movement would break this game?

    Slowing the acceleration down so human goalies can be held more accountable, DSS can be used more realistically, would break this game somewhere else? How? Can we articulate here?

    Making fatigue matter would break another aspect of the game? How?

    Making backhanded passes actually drastically slower than forehand passes like real life would break this game? How?

    Removing (or mitigating) the ridiculous hook passing from this game would break this game? How?

    How I see it, all of this garbage you can do without even a second thought IS what breaks what is otherwise a solid fundamental hockey game. If sliders were even at some middle ground level compared to the current values, the online hockey would be 300% better instantly and the RPM checking, skating, and DSS would instantly become much more used tools than they currently are.

    Like, what top teams are you watching “legit hockey” being played lol? Zero. That’s how many and it’s not even up for debate lol. The number is zero and it’s zero because legit hockey doesn’t work. Curling RS a billion times while feathering LT and then making stupid passes that are only hard to disrupt because the tuner values/mechanics, not because it’s a genuinely nice play, is not legit hockey. Just because we see them all run 0-5 traps doesn’t mean it’s legit hockey. Oh I forgot, they cycle sometimes! Legit hockey!

    So like, let’s define “legit hockey” and “simulation hockey” and let’s actually define a set list of topics/features of the game that would be negatively affected by some sense of realistic accountability. This argument (or counter argument to real hockey) is only ever made in vague terms. Let’s start with a definition of “real hockey” let’s all agree that a middle-ground is the endgame, and let’s come up with a definitive list of “problem areas” where we actually articulate an in-depth explanation for why we think Brian Boitano with a hockey stick is either “realistic” or not and also an articulate explanation with examples on why not allowing Brian Boitano with a hockey stick to exist would fundamentally break the game or break another aspect of the game. I legit am so incredibly curious how anyone can watch someone with the puck do a complete circle next to the boards without losing any momentum (IRL a power turn would be needed which would result in loss of speed and the carrier would need to re-accelerate to take advantage of the space gained) and say “that’s realistic and/or needed for this game to be fun” because I simply do not agree in the least bit, especially when you have tuners in the game already that can easily prevent this without making the game overly clunky.

    I’m actually wanting to go back and forth on this, but I offer articulate responses with examples of things I see online/on default sliders that are egregiously offensive to the real sport, and am only ever met with vague counter-arguments that I simply don’t buy. At least of an articulate response with examples was given, I could try to find middle ground, but as it currently stands I don’t see any logical, realistic, or necessary reason for the acceleration levels to be where they are right now. I don’t see any realistic, logical, or necessary reason for computer goalies to really only allow “predictable” goals in this game. Give me something to actually respond to and I’ll gladly offer a rebuttal and/or try to find middle ground.

    We just aren’t having these conversations though. We’re arguing about 30-60 seconds of previous context to see if a pass should go through or not under a microscope lol. The big picture is totally forgotten about. “Good players will still be good” is an excuse to leave the status quo in place because we what? Genuinely believe people wanting to play hockey are worried about leaderboards/being at the top lol? No, they just want to actually play something that is a respectable representation of the sport online. Whether that’s through private lobbies, a separate search setting, a different game mode (ProAm/3’s eliminator comes to mind) they just want to play hockey. The current choices online are “arcade garbage where people pretend that this is hockey because we have 6 people on mics who are cooperating” and “extremely bad and not fun version of NHL Hitz where we randomly give out money pucks and have some of worst virtual goaltending ever seen” so where is the “even remotely simulation” playlist/game style? It doesn’t exist. It doesn’t even exist offline as a preset.

    There’s a reason people feel like they’re talking to a wall and their concerns aren’t heard. They’re told “it can’t be done and even if it could, the good players would still be good so it’s not like you’d even get your leaderboard prestige you want anyway” when they try discussing having more hockey-like gameplay in a hockey game. It’s useless.
  • Follisimo
    1185 posts Member
    Everyone is entitled to voice their concerns. They have their vision for the game and unless a vast majority want a change it most likely isn't going to happen. I'd say these forums don't even represent 1% of the feedback they get.

    I've said my peace on goalies for years. Some things slowly came to happen but still a vast majority haven't. Maybe it just isn't in their ideals to make t hose changes or they simply want to get it 100% correct.

    They aren't the kind that shoots down answers and instead would rather say thanks for the feedback we heard you and then do whatever they want to do whether it be using it or not.

  • Greyinsi
    132 posts Member
    Meanwhile...
  • IceLion68
    1575 posts Member
    Greyinsi wrote: »
    Meanwhile...

    (face palm)
  • While that's an extreme example, this kind of play happens all the time. The puck carrier moves his stick through a defender and because his stick and the puck both move from one side to the other at the same speed he can essentially retain possession despite "losing" the puck while his stick is clipping.

    And while I understand the argument that there needs to be some leeway because puck carrier doesn't have the same fidelity for avoiding contact that they would in real hockey, IMO these sweeping side-to-side plays where the stick passes through both legs of the defender shouldn't be rewarded with possession on the other side. To come out the other side cleanly with that much clipping should require the use of a loose puck deke.
  • I honestly think hitting should be brought back to the way it was in 14, hitting in 14 was 👍👌, but then people said it was, "too good and op." Which I disagree with, it helped slow the game down. Hitting got a major nerf after that to give skaters a, "safe zone" now hitting and forechecking is hard to do consistently. When I can get the forechecking working the way it's supposed to its nice, but it's hit or miss.. (no pun intended... lol). Putting on a good forecheck should bump players off the puck occasionally, not rarely like it does now. Now skaters lose the puck by people just skating into them..

    The online game just isn’t hockey lol. Seems like they want Tony hawks pro skater hockey where if you do a button combo right, it should be successful. If you glide in the same exact spot time and time again, it should successful and all other attempts at performing a shot should fail (saved).

    We can use vague terms like “realism would make other parts of the game not work right/fun” but where? Like, I’d like to actually read examples of this because I feel like adding accountability for offensive players is being conflated with let’s make all stick interactions a thing and everything turns into a sloppy mess. There’s a huge difference between making physical interactions happen to a fault and simply using the tuners we’ve all been provided to create an experience that rewards more than a few shots, a few plays which in turn makes everyone play boring, uninspired, robotic hockey because it’s not worth doing anything outside of the norm. How is this hockey? We’re not asking for a 1:1 representation but like a 1:412 representation of it would be nice (and is more than doable already, I should add.)

    Genuinely asking for those who believe the current game is actually fun online (the one where you can watch telegraphed passes go right by stationary defenders who are looking at the puck) how forcing some sense of realistic momentum and accountability/unpredictability would make the game worse?

    How would not being able to practice LT moves for an hour (about the max time it takes to learn how to use LT effectively when combined with a big-body build...it really isn’t hard lol) to gain completely mastery of how incredibly overpowered it is with the right build break this game?

    How would making screens actually effective break something else in this game?

    First shots scoring from a prime area that didn’t involve a 3 second glide at the right angle would break something else in this game?

    Human goalies actually being able to move and then being forced to actually play angles and move would break this game?

    Low-speed hitting actually being effective which would actually promote puck movement would break this game?

    Slowing the acceleration down so human goalies can be held more accountable, DSS can be used more realistically, would break this game somewhere else? How? Can we articulate here?

    Making fatigue matter would break another aspect of the game? How?

    Making backhanded passes actually drastically slower than forehand passes like real life would break this game? How?

    Removing (or mitigating) the ridiculous hook passing from this game would break this game? How?

    How I see it, all of this garbage you can do without even a second thought IS what breaks what is otherwise a solid fundamental hockey game. If sliders were even at some middle ground level compared to the current values, the online hockey would be 300% better instantly and the RPM checking, skating, and DSS would instantly become much more used tools than they currently are.

    Like, what top teams are you watching “legit hockey” being played lol? Zero. That’s how many and it’s not even up for debate lol. The number is zero and it’s zero because legit hockey doesn’t work. Curling RS a billion times while feathering LT and then making stupid passes that are only hard to disrupt because the tuner values/mechanics, not because it’s a genuinely nice play, is not legit hockey. Just because we see them all run 0-5 traps doesn’t mean it’s legit hockey. Oh I forgot, they cycle sometimes! Legit hockey!

    So like, let’s define “legit hockey” and “simulation hockey” and let’s actually define a set list of topics/features of the game that would be negatively affected by some sense of realistic accountability. This argument (or counter argument to real hockey) is only ever made in vague terms. Let’s start with a definition of “real hockey” let’s all agree that a middle-ground is the endgame, and let’s come up with a definitive list of “problem areas” where we actually articulate an in-depth explanation for why we think Brian Boitano with a hockey stick is either “realistic” or not and also an articulate explanation with examples on why not allowing Brian Boitano with a hockey stick to exist would fundamentally break the game or break another aspect of the game. I legit am so incredibly curious how anyone can watch someone with the puck do a complete circle next to the boards without losing any momentum (IRL a power turn would be needed which would result in loss of speed and the carrier would need to re-accelerate to take advantage of the space gained) and say “that’s realistic and/or needed for this game to be fun” because I simply do not agree in the least bit, especially when you have tuners in the game already that can easily prevent this without making the game overly clunky.

    I’m actually wanting to go back and forth on this, but I offer articulate responses with examples of things I see online/on default sliders that are egregiously offensive to the real sport, and am only ever met with vague counter-arguments that I simply don’t buy. At least of an articulate response with examples was given, I could try to find middle ground, but as it currently stands I don’t see any logical, realistic, or necessary reason for the acceleration levels to be where they are right now. I don’t see any realistic, logical, or necessary reason for computer goalies to really only allow “predictable” goals in this game. Give me something to actually respond to and I’ll gladly offer a rebuttal and/or try to find middle ground.

    We just aren’t having these conversations though. We’re arguing about 30-60 seconds of previous context to see if a pass should go through or not under a microscope lol. The big picture is totally forgotten about. “Good players will still be good” is an excuse to leave the status quo in place because we what? Genuinely believe people wanting to play hockey are worried about leaderboards/being at the top lol? No, they just want to actually play something that is a respectable representation of the sport online. Whether that’s through private lobbies, a separate search setting, a different game mode (ProAm/3’s eliminator comes to mind) they just want to play hockey. The current choices online are “arcade garbage where people pretend that this is hockey because we have 6 people on mics who are cooperating” and “extremely bad and not fun version of NHL Hitz where we randomly give out money pucks and have some of worst virtual goaltending ever seen” so where is the “even remotely simulation” playlist/game style? It doesn’t exist. It doesn’t even exist offline as a preset.

    There’s a reason people feel like they’re talking to a wall and their concerns aren’t heard. They’re told “it can’t be done and even if it could, the good players would still be good so it’s not like you’d even get your leaderboard prestige you want anyway” when they try discussing having more hockey-like gameplay in a hockey game. It’s useless.

    Yup. I asked a number of these same questions at the beginning of this thread. The devs just truly opted to skip out on supporting NHL 21 this year and we all got scammed. We need to face that this is just not a AAA game anymore, and there is little hope left for playing anything not resembling disney-on-ice (even though many of the blatant realism flaws are merely tuner issues). No one at EA cares enough (zero gameplay updates all year) and they can continue to use "skill gap" as a lazy crutch for the absurd. So they will, yet again, instead spend their time on some new silly lacrosse-goal-like animation for next year while the fundamentals languish seemingly forever. Useless indeed.
  • IceLion68
    1575 posts Member

    We need to face that this is just not a AAA game anymore

    I guess it depends on the definition "AAA Game". I am not sure I would say this is not a AAA Game.. but I *will* say that I do not believe they are providing good value. The relatively small incremental improvements we see each year do not justify a full AAA purchase price. This is why this year I waited until Christmas when the game was about half price to finally buy it; the first time I have done so since I started buying/playing (NHL 14).
  • Follisimo
    1185 posts Member
    I honestly think hitting should be brought back to the way it was in 14, hitting in 14 was 👍👌, but then people said it was, "too good and op." Which I disagree with, it helped slow the game down. Hitting got a major nerf after that to give skaters a, "safe zone" now hitting and forechecking is hard to do consistently. When I can get the forechecking working the way it's supposed to its nice, but it's hit or miss.. (no pun intended... lol). Putting on a good forecheck should bump players off the puck occasionally, not rarely like it does now. Now skaters lose the puck by people just skating into them..

    The online game just isn’t hockey lol. Seems like they want Tony hawks pro skater hockey where if you do a button combo right, it should be successful. If you glide in the same exact spot time and time again, it should successful and all other attempts at performing a shot should fail (saved).

    We can use vague terms like “realism would make other parts of the game not work right/fun” but where? Like, I’d like to actually read examples of this because I feel like adding accountability for offensive players is being conflated with let’s make all stick interactions a thing and everything turns into a sloppy mess. There’s a huge difference between making physical interactions happen to a fault and simply using the tuners we’ve all been provided to create an experience that rewards more than a few shots, a few plays which in turn makes everyone play boring, uninspired, robotic hockey because it’s not worth doing anything outside of the norm. How is this hockey? We’re not asking for a 1:1 representation but like a 1:412 representation of it would be nice (and is more than doable already, I should add.)

    Genuinely asking for those who believe the current game is actually fun online (the one where you can watch telegraphed passes go right by stationary defenders who are looking at the puck) how forcing some sense of realistic momentum and accountability/unpredictability would make the game worse?

    How would not being able to practice LT moves for an hour (about the max time it takes to learn how to use LT effectively when combined with a big-body build...it really isn’t hard lol) to gain completely mastery of how incredibly overpowered it is with the right build break this game?

    How would making screens actually effective break something else in this game?

    First shots scoring from a prime area that didn’t involve a 3 second glide at the right angle would break something else in this game?

    Human goalies actually being able to move and then being forced to actually play angles and move would break this game?

    Low-speed hitting actually being effective which would actually promote puck movement would break this game?

    Slowing the acceleration down so human goalies can be held more accountable, DSS can be used more realistically, would break this game somewhere else? How? Can we articulate here?

    Making fatigue matter would break another aspect of the game? How?

    Making backhanded passes actually drastically slower than forehand passes like real life would break this game? How?

    Removing (or mitigating) the ridiculous hook passing from this game would break this game? How?

    How I see it, all of this garbage you can do without even a second thought IS what breaks what is otherwise a solid fundamental hockey game. If sliders were even at some middle ground level compared to the current values, the online hockey would be 300% better instantly and the RPM checking, skating, and DSS would instantly become much more used tools than they currently are.

    Like, what top teams are you watching “legit hockey” being played lol? Zero. That’s how many and it’s not even up for debate lol. The number is zero and it’s zero because legit hockey doesn’t work. Curling RS a billion times while feathering LT and then making stupid passes that are only hard to disrupt because the tuner values/mechanics, not because it’s a genuinely nice play, is not legit hockey. Just because we see them all run 0-5 traps doesn’t mean it’s legit hockey. Oh I forgot, they cycle sometimes! Legit hockey!

    So like, let’s define “legit hockey” and “simulation hockey” and let’s actually define a set list of topics/features of the game that would be negatively affected by some sense of realistic accountability. This argument (or counter argument to real hockey) is only ever made in vague terms. Let’s start with a definition of “real hockey” let’s all agree that a middle-ground is the endgame, and let’s come up with a definitive list of “problem areas” where we actually articulate an in-depth explanation for why we think Brian Boitano with a hockey stick is either “realistic” or not and also an articulate explanation with examples on why not allowing Brian Boitano with a hockey stick to exist would fundamentally break the game or break another aspect of the game. I legit am so incredibly curious how anyone can watch someone with the puck do a complete circle next to the boards without losing any momentum (IRL a power turn would be needed which would result in loss of speed and the carrier would need to re-accelerate to take advantage of the space gained) and say “that’s realistic and/or needed for this game to be fun” because I simply do not agree in the least bit, especially when you have tuners in the game already that can easily prevent this without making the game overly clunky.

    I’m actually wanting to go back and forth on this, but I offer articulate responses with examples of things I see online/on default sliders that are egregiously offensive to the real sport, and am only ever met with vague counter-arguments that I simply don’t buy. At least of an articulate response with examples was given, I could try to find middle ground, but as it currently stands I don’t see any logical, realistic, or necessary reason for the acceleration levels to be where they are right now. I don’t see any realistic, logical, or necessary reason for computer goalies to really only allow “predictable” goals in this game. Give me something to actually respond to and I’ll gladly offer a rebuttal and/or try to find middle ground.

    We just aren’t having these conversations though. We’re arguing about 30-60 seconds of previous context to see if a pass should go through or not under a microscope lol. The big picture is totally forgotten about. “Good players will still be good” is an excuse to leave the status quo in place because we what? Genuinely believe people wanting to play hockey are worried about leaderboards/being at the top lol? No, they just want to actually play something that is a respectable representation of the sport online. Whether that’s through private lobbies, a separate search setting, a different game mode (ProAm/3’s eliminator comes to mind) they just want to play hockey. The current choices online are “arcade garbage where people pretend that this is hockey because we have 6 people on mics who are cooperating” and “extremely bad and not fun version of NHL Hitz where we randomly give out money pucks and have some of worst virtual goaltending ever seen” so where is the “even remotely simulation” playlist/game style? It doesn’t exist. It doesn’t even exist offline as a preset.

    There’s a reason people feel like they’re talking to a wall and their concerns aren’t heard. They’re told “it can’t be done and even if it could, the good players would still be good so it’s not like you’d even get your leaderboard prestige you want anyway” when they try discussing having more hockey-like gameplay in a hockey game. It’s useless.

    Yup. I asked a number of these same questions at the beginning of this thread. The devs just truly opted to skip out on supporting NHL 21 this year and we all got scammed. We need to face that this is just not a AAA game anymore, and there is little hope left for playing anything not resembling disney-on-ice (even though many of the blatant realism flaws are merely tuner issues). No one at EA cares enough (zero gameplay updates all year) and they can continue to use "skill gap" as a lazy crutch for the absurd. So they will, yet again, instead spend their time on some new silly lacrosse-goal-like animation for next year while the fundamentals languish seemingly forever. Useless indeed.

    All the sports titles have reached their pinnacle and all that is left is visual and tweaks each year. Madden, FIFA, NBA, MLB. There is nothing special any of them can bring that will drastically change the game. I can tell you this though the licensing isn't magically gonna get cheaper for the games. Once the PS5/XSX is more mainstream the $70 becomes a normal too.

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