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AI player tendencies are needed

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Playing more offline now, it is more apparent that there is no difference in this game how an AI controlled McDavid and an AI controlled Zach Kassian play. They have different attributes, but they go to the same areas of the ice, attempt the same plays with the puck, exhibit the same amount of physical play, and ultimately just play the same, just with a different success rate.

There need to be tendency ratings that influence AI player behavior.

A physicality rating, lower means less hitting and boardplay, higher Means more hitting and boardplay. This differentiates Tom Wilson from Phil Kessel.

Shooting/passing/puck carrying/dumping bias ratings. This differentiates Laine from Backstrom from Gaudreau from Matt Martin.

Offense/defense bias ratings, differentiating Chara from DeAngelo as far as pinching and leading rushes.

Perimeter/Slot ratings, differentiating Pavelski from Panarin.


Pretty much every other sports game has these, so it's well past the time for this game to have them. And NHL 2K had these over 15 years ago, so it's been done in hockey before.

Replies

  • Yep, we desperately need these. The AI is extremely lacking compared to other sports games. No tendencies, everyone can do the same dekes, puck is almost perfectly flat and easy to catch 99% of the time by default, it’s just shallow which is a shame because it might be one of the deepest real life sports around when it comes to the mix of structure, discipline, creativity, finesse, grit, and improvising lol. Some players should finish checks, some shouldn’t (or rarely). Some players shouldn’t stick handle much, some should make you nervous at all times, some players should pass to a fault, some should should shoot to a fault, some players should be aggressive to a fault, some should be passive to a fault. These intangibles are the difference between some scenarios working well and other poorly at the professional level. Line matchups are a huge deal for this reason. We desperately need tendencies and physics to matter so much more than they do. Physics can be changed with sliders atm obviously, but they’re not at a good place by default.
  • Beauts90
    145 posts Member
    This absolutely needs to be implemented. Every player for every team plays the exact same way and there is no difference in opponents. I wrote out a long response as to why I think this is needed and realized I was just repeating what you guys said above.
    I would just add that there also needs to be more of a noticeable difference between players we are controlling with the puck as well.
    Between the (mostly) terrible ai and the fact that every team/player feels and acts the same are easily the main reasons the gameplay gets stale for me so quickly.
  • This is a must-have, but I highly doubt we see it next game. I'd love to make each individual player unique, but the furthest they've gone with that is the random "unique shots" for certain players.
  • Sega82mega
    4308 posts Member
    I wonder how many players this unique shots goes for - I know Subban is one for sure.
  • The biggest culprit right now is the attribute effect slider. I don’t run any set under 10/10 it’s the only way you start seeing some differences between players. That being said, most of the differences are in skating, shot accuracy, and and puck receptions. I would like to see RS moves (right/left no “deke”) be a lot slower for lower rated players than it currently is. I find losing possession to be more than frustrating for a video game, but just make the actual right/left speed much slower. In my 0-based skating set, I see huge differences between my 5’10” OFD and my 6’4” grinder when it comes to acceleration. Very good to see but something you’d never see by default. Lastly, if you tune those pass reception sliders enough, you can see some nice variety and unpredictability with receptions, especially when comparing good players to bad, but again, you never see this by default.

    I think tendencies are an obvious must have but normalizing AE 10/10 is also necessary to see small attribute differences mean a lot.
  • Beauts90
    145 posts Member
    The biggest culprit right now is the attribute effect slider. I don’t run any set under 10/10 it’s the only way you start seeing some differences between players. That being said, most of the differences are in skating, shot accuracy, and and puck receptions. I would like to see RS moves (right/left no “deke”) be a lot slower for lower rated players than it currently is. I find losing possession to be more than frustrating for a video game, but just make the actual right/left speed much slower. In my 0-based skating set, I see huge differences between my 5’10” OFD and my 6’4” grinder when it comes to acceleration. Very good to see but something you’d never see by default. Lastly, if you tune those pass reception sliders enough, you can see some nice variety and unpredictability with receptions, especially when comparing good players to bad, but again, you never see this by default.

    I think tendencies are an obvious must have but normalizing AE 10/10 is also necessary to see small attribute differences mean a lot.

    I always have attribute effect slider at 10 and to me it just seems like the higher rated players are just better at everything, kind of like you said. There still isn't any noticeable difference between players whose overall are similar.
    There isn't anything that separates Crosby from Mcdavid or Mcdavid from Matthews for example as anything that one can do, they all can do.
  • Sega82mega
    4308 posts Member
    Beauts90 wrote: »
    The biggest culprit right now is the attribute effect slider. I don’t run any set under 10/10 it’s the only way you start seeing some differences between players. That being said, most of the differences are in skating, shot accuracy, and and puck receptions. I would like to see RS moves (right/left no “deke”) be a lot slower for lower rated players than it currently is. I find losing possession to be more than frustrating for a video game, but just make the actual right/left speed much slower. In my 0-based skating set, I see huge differences between my 5’10” OFD and my 6’4” grinder when it comes to acceleration. Very good to see but something you’d never see by default. Lastly, if you tune those pass reception sliders enough, you can see some nice variety and unpredictability with receptions, especially when comparing good players to bad, but again, you never see this by default.

    I think tendencies are an obvious must have but normalizing AE 10/10 is also necessary to see small attribute differences mean a lot.


    There isn't anything that separates Crosby from Mcdavid or Mcdavid from Matthews for example as anything that one can do, they all can do.

    But do you say Crosby feels exactly the same as mcdavid to control?

    Or do you mean it should be a bigger noticeable difference?

    Cause I can feel a difference in every player I control - cause of body size and diffrent agility on the ice.

    I like it's a pretty unique feeling from player to player.

    But ofc - If mcdavid could be even more mcdavid, why not.
  • EA_Blueberry
    4836 posts EA Community Manager
    The Madden NFL team are using next-gen stats to drive AI behavior for Madden NFL 22. I'm not sure if this tech is being used for the next NHL title, but if it's something you want for NHL we'll pass along the request. I'd love to see it in all sports games.

    Post: https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion/Gridiron-Notes-Madden-NFL-22-Gameplay-Deep-Dive-Discussion/m-p/10482295#M387

    It's mentioned under "Dynamic Gameday: Next Gen-Star Driven A.I."
  • Beauts90 wrote: »
    The biggest culprit right now is the attribute effect slider. I don’t run any set under 10/10 it’s the only way you start seeing some differences between players. That being said, most of the differences are in skating, shot accuracy, and and puck receptions. I would like to see RS moves (right/left no “deke”) be a lot slower for lower rated players than it currently is. I find losing possession to be more than frustrating for a video game, but just make the actual right/left speed much slower. In my 0-based skating set, I see huge differences between my 5’10” OFD and my 6’4” grinder when it comes to acceleration. Very good to see but something you’d never see by default. Lastly, if you tune those pass reception sliders enough, you can see some nice variety and unpredictability with receptions, especially when comparing good players to bad, but again, you never see this by default.

    I think tendencies are an obvious must have but normalizing AE 10/10 is also necessary to see small attribute differences mean a lot.

    I always have attribute effect slider at 10 and to me it just seems like the higher rated players are just better at everything, kind of like you said. There still isn't any noticeable difference between players whose overall are similar.
    There isn't anything that separates Crosby from Mcdavid or Mcdavid from Matthews for example as anything that one can do, they all can do.

    Yeah I agree for the most part. I will say that this is also due to their rating system though. Just like their EASHL “MOBA class system” they don’t actually differentiate players to a point where decisions need to be made. It’s shallow, plug and play, change a few things by 1-5 and call it good style of “differentiation” that realistically results in zero differentiation past a sim engine.

    This game is built for the EASHL/casual player who doesn’t want to think or actually experience even the slightest inconvenience when attempting their once in lifetime play for the 87th time in one game. Having actual player differentiation would require that people know their rosters and play to their strengths and EASHL people want to do everything with one build and casuals want to force 2 “through the legs” passes through 8 combined defenders while scoring a bar down 1T in stride offline like it’s NHL 94 again.

    We’ll never see any tendencies, x-factors, even AI, goaltending that makes sense, realistic skating tuners, realistic pace of play tuners, etc until EA decides that offline gamers matter again. Madden has seemingly started taking a step in that direction, maybe NHL will be more than a HUT money printer soon too.
  • Beauts90
    145 posts Member
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    But do you say Crosby feels exactly the same as mcdavid to control?

    Or do you mean it should be a bigger noticeable difference?

    Cause I can feel a difference in every player I control - cause of body size and diffrent agility on the ice.

    I like it's a pretty unique feeling from player to player.

    But ofc - If mcdavid could be even more mcdavid, why not.

    I am saying that i don't notice any difference between them and yes, there should be a bigger noticeable difference. Basically all of their individual attributes are within a couple of points of each other in order to achieve their high (and much deserved) overall rating. There are a lot of things that top players in the league do better than each other, but in my opinion there just aren't enough specific individual attributes in the game to make enough of a distinction between players that are close in overall despite not playing the same style of hockey.
    The Madden NFL team are using next-gen stats to drive AI behavior for Madden NFL 22. I'm not sure if this tech is being used for the next NHL title, but if it's something you want for NHL we'll pass along the request. I'd love to see it in all sports games.

    I saw this in the Madden notes, hopefully its as good as it sounds because it sounds great. There are quite a few features in that game that I hope make the way over to the NHL series.
  • Sega82mega
    4308 posts Member
    The Madden NFL team are using next-gen stats to drive AI behavior for Madden NFL 22. I'm not sure if this tech is being used for the next NHL title, but if it's something you want for NHL we'll pass along the request. I'd love to see it in all sports games.

    Post: https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion/Gridiron-Notes-Madden-NFL-22-Gameplay-Deep-Dive-Discussion/m-p/10482295#M387

    It's mentioned under "Dynamic Gameday: Next Gen-Star Driven A.I."

    That would be so cool. If not now - later. Soon will come with better days.
  • Sega82mega
    4308 posts Member
    Beauts90 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    But do you say Crosby feels exactly the same as mcdavid to control?

    Or do you mean it should be a bigger noticeable difference?

    Cause I can feel a difference in every player I control - cause of body size and diffrent agility on the ice.

    I like it's a pretty unique feeling from player to player.

    But ofc - If mcdavid could be even more mcdavid, why not.

    I am saying that i don't notice any difference between them and yes, there should be a bigger noticeable difference. Basically all of their individual attributes are within a couple of points of each other in order to achieve their high (and much deserved) overall rating. There are a lot of things that top players in the league do better than each other, but in my opinion there just aren't enough specific individual attributes in the game to make enough of a distinction between players that are close in overall despite not playing the same style of hockey.

    Is it in speed you wanna feel more difference?

  • The Madden NFL team are using next-gen stats to drive AI behavior for Madden NFL 22. I'm not sure if this tech is being used for the next NHL title, but if it's something you want for NHL we'll pass along the request. I'd love to see it in all sports games.

    Post: https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion/Gridiron-Notes-Madden-NFL-22-Gameplay-Deep-Dive-Discussion/m-p/10482295#M387

    It's mentioned under "Dynamic Gameday: Next Gen-Star Driven A.I."

    This sounds GREAT. I would LOVE to see this in the NHL. Study the way the players play the game. Or, maybe have each playstyle play different for starters. Maybe you can have an AI form its playstyle based on their attributes - a guy with a good shot might take shots more often.

    I think I just thought of something.

    You guys added that "behavior" section this year in the "edit players" menu.

    This "behavior" section includes skating styles and shot tyles.

    How about we add frequencies to this? Zone driving, shot or pass, dump or carry, etc. Giving those would be a great start and I believe something like this is necessary AT THE LEAST. Giving us these behavioral sliders would also allow us to customize a player's playstyle if we feel EA has misjudged OR a player adjusted their playstyle. I hope you understand what I mean when I talk about behavioral sliders like these. But, if you listen to this message, DO NOT MAKE THEM "SLIDERS". These things should be UNIQUE for EVERY player, and thus should be edited from the "Edit Player" menu.

    Also: PLEASE ADD THE 1-3-1 POWER PLAY!!! P L E A S E! I want to be able to run TBL's PP. They run a 1-3-1, so does WSH and many other teams in the league.
  • BlueshirtQuinn
    136 posts Member
    edited July 2021
    Oops, I just realized, the OP basically wrote out the same idea that I just wrote out in the above post. Sorry OP - I didn't intentionally steal from you LOL. Didn't remember what this thread was about.
  • Beauts90
    145 posts Member
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    Is it in speed you wanna feel more difference?

    Without hijacking the thread as I think it’s a great topic of discussion so I will try to tie it into what I am trying to say here. Speed is just one factor, although the biggest one that separates Mcdavid from others. For Matthews it’s his shot/release, yet there are only 2 shooting attributes with power and accuracy for each even though we all know there is so much more to shooting. I feel anybody with 90+ shooting skills is able to score all the same goals from the same spots as each other.
    So what I am trying to say is there aren’t enough detailed individual attributes that separate players from each other. I think it’s really hard to properly make a distinction between players when all the attributes are within 5% of each other (comparing Crosby and Mcdavid). Instead of the 25 or so they currently have, I’d like to see at least double that as that would allow them to really customize each player and bring out their abilities.
    Player types should actually mean something and not just be assigned, some of which seem completely wrong. Maybe have attributes weighted differently depending on player type so for example a snipers shooting skills are worth more than a playmakers so the truly elite players don’t have to have everything rated so high even if that isn’t necessarily a strength of theirs.
    Combine that with the new ai features they are putting in Madden for both teams and players and I think playing each team/player would feel so much more unique than it is now and you could truly notice when you are playing a team like Tampa compared to say Montreal.
  • The “shooting skills mean more for snipers” thing is something I’ve been asking about for years and years. Why even have “types” if all the stats mean the same? It’s redundant unless those types actually equate to tendencies like snipers shooting more often or whatnot, but they really don’t mean anything in this game on-ice. If you want “types” to make it easier for casuals to identify what that player should excel at, that’s fine, but their attributes should reflect that then if the attributes are the “same” for every class.

    I like your idea though as I said before, I’ve suggested this same thing in the past. A 99 overall grinder /= a 99 overall sniper. Either the attributes should mean something different for each class (ex: 99 shot accuracy on a grinder is not as good as 99 shot accuracy on a sniper) or overall should weight what skills are desired for each play style to be effective if you want attributes to mean the same. My grinder with 50 strength, 82 speed, 61 checking and 95 shot accuracy is going to be rated as a pretty low grinder but a pretty good sniper.
  • Follisimo
    1346 posts Member
    edited July 2021
    Here is some of the Madden stuff. I'm not sure people would be happy with seeing Momentum being a thing.

  • Beauts90
    145 posts Member
    Follisimo wrote: »
    Here is some of the Madden stuff. I'm not sure people would be happy with seeing Momentum being a thing.


    These would all be awesome additions for Franchise Mode and I hope to see them in NHL.
    These forums would probably crash if they were put into online modes due to people hating them so much though.
  • Beauts90 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    Is it in speed you wanna feel more difference?

    Without hijacking the thread as I think it’s a great topic of discussion so I will try to tie it into what I am trying to say here. Speed is just one factor, although the biggest one that separates Mcdavid from others. For Matthews it’s his shot/release, yet there are only 2 shooting attributes with power and accuracy for each even though we all know there is so much more to shooting. I feel anybody with 90+ shooting skills is able to score all the same goals from the same spots as each other.
    So what I am trying to say is there aren’t enough detailed individual attributes that separate players from each other. I think it’s really hard to properly make a distinction between players when all the attributes are within 5% of each other (comparing Crosby and Mcdavid). Instead of the 25 or so they currently have, I’d like to see at least double that as that would allow them to really customize each player and bring out their abilities.
    Player types should actually mean something and not just be assigned, some of which seem completely wrong. Maybe have attributes weighted differently depending on player type so for example a snipers shooting skills are worth more than a playmakers so the truly elite players don’t have to have everything rated so high even if that isn’t necessarily a strength of theirs.
    Combine that with the new ai features they are putting in Madden for both teams and players and I think playing each team/player would feel so much more unique than it is now and you could truly notice when you are playing a team like Tampa compared to say Montreal.

    I think a great attribute to have is shooting release for both slapshot and wrist shots. There are some people who shoot MUCH quicker than others in the league.

    Also - the overall rating system needs a revamp. Defensive awareness feels like it weighs too heavy for BOTH sides of skaters (approx. 1 overall per 4-5 DAW for forwards, 1 overall per 2-3 DAW for defensemen). This causes things like MCDAVID HAVING A 93 IN DEFENSIVE AWARENESS just so he can have the high rating he has now.

  • Beauts90 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    Is it in speed you wanna feel more difference?

    Without hijacking the thread as I think it’s a great topic of discussion so I will try to tie it into what I am trying to say here. Speed is just one factor, although the biggest one that separates Mcdavid from others. For Matthews it’s his shot/release, yet there are only 2 shooting attributes with power and accuracy for each even though we all know there is so much more to shooting. I feel anybody with 90+ shooting skills is able to score all the same goals from the same spots as each other.
    So what I am trying to say is there aren’t enough detailed individual attributes that separate players from each other. I think it’s really hard to properly make a distinction between players when all the attributes are within 5% of each other (comparing Crosby and Mcdavid). Instead of the 25 or so they currently have, I’d like to see at least double that as that would allow them to really customize each player and bring out their abilities.
    Player types should actually mean something and not just be assigned, some of which seem completely wrong. Maybe have attributes weighted differently depending on player type so for example a snipers shooting skills are worth more than a playmakers so the truly elite players don’t have to have everything rated so high even if that isn’t necessarily a strength of theirs.
    Combine that with the new ai features they are putting in Madden for both teams and players and I think playing each team/player would feel so much more unique than it is now and you could truly notice when you are playing a team like Tampa compared to say Montreal.

    I think a great attribute to have is shooting release for both slapshot and wrist shots. There are some people who shoot MUCH quicker than others in the league.

    Also - the overall rating system needs a revamp. Defensive awareness feels like it weighs too heavy for BOTH sides of skaters (approx. 1 overall per 4-5 DAW for forwards, 1 overall per 2-3 DAW for defensemen). This causes things like MCDAVID HAVING A 93 IN DEFENSIVE AWARENESS just so he can have the high rating he has now.

    Yes, it’s absurd. It proves how archaic and relatively useless in reality the attribute system is. I also agree about releases. Some people have wicked fast releases and it separates them from others. I think I’ll ask for one baby step at a time though.
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