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Both of the flags on The Mayflower are incorrect

Replies

  • paul4ro
    50 posts
    edited November 2013
    The bottom line for me is that it would have literally taken under 1 minute to google the correct flags. Its a mistake that shouldn't have happened.

    It isn't a mistake. It's identical to the depiction of the ship in a non-canonical episode of a fictional cartoon called The Simpsons which it came from. (there is some background on the TSTO tips website) Homer, Marge, Lisa, Moe weren't on the original Mayflower and Ned Flanders certainly wasn't the captain either!!!
  • Arlandria606
    519 posts
    edited November 2013
    You have your head so far up you own ****. First I am an American and I never assumend anything until you last post. I thought Americans we screwed up, you now provec me wrong, I given two squats where you are from.

    ...what?

    I'm sorry, I genuinely have no idea what you're complaining about. It sounds like you're saying that I said Americans assumed... something. Which I didn't. I said one (Irish) person assumed three things. And something about where I'm from, which I also haven't mentioned, because it isn't relevant.
  • jasonicus321
    1811 posts New member
    edited November 2013
    Thanks for letting us know, nerd.
  • Arlandria606
    519 posts
    edited November 2013
    paul4ro wrote:
    The fact is that Great Britain is not the same thing as the United Kingdom. Mass appropriation of mis-referencing is not a justification for doing so, the same way millions of people liking <insert popular musical artist you dislike here> does not make them an excellent judge of talent.

    Words mean whatever the person who said them meant. From the Oxford dictionary:

    "Great Britain is the name for the island that comprises England, Scotland, and Wales, although the term is also used loosely to refer to the United Kingdom."

    You may not watch Stephen Fry, but it is the same snobbish misplaced sense of pedantry that he has. That comment you made on something subjective such as "talent" sums it up.

    Um. I'm sorry, but you can't say "words mean whatever the person who said them meant" and then quote from the Dictionary, i.e. a book that documents what words mean. Either they mean what they mean, or they mean whatever the person who said them meant. Pick one.

    The comment I made about talent was to further explain the idea that the majority doing something or holding a particular opinion does not make it right. It HAD to be about something subjective; it's got nothing to do with pedantry. If you want something less (but still slightly) subjective, take ****. He was voted into power. (True, he then refused to fairly give it up, but initially, he was voted in.) The majority voted for ****. Does that mean it was the right thing to do? I think it's safe to assume you'll agree with me when I say no, it wasn't. So, the argument of "lots of people say Britain and mean the UK, so we should all do it" isn't sound.
  • Aennilya
    636 posts
    edited November 2013
    Oh, I was enjoying this ... but, Godwin's Law. *sad face*

    Edit: I was even trying to figure out how to save the Dis Gon B Gud gif for posting, but, alas ....
  • Arlandria606
    519 posts
    edited November 2013
    Aennilya wrote:
    Oh, I was enjoying this ... but, Godwin's Law. *sad face*

    Edit: I was even trying to figure out how to save the Dis Gon B Gud gif for posting, but, alas ....

    Sorry. I know it's a cheap example, but it's the easiest example of something subjective that the masses share an opinion on. And to be fair, it wasn't my first choice of analogy. More of a last resort.
  • mwdalton
    11549 posts Member
    edited November 2013
    You have your head so far up you own *. First I am an American and I never assumend anything until you last post. I thought Americans we screwed up, you now provec me wrong, I given two squats where you are from.

    Geez, calm down, dude, she wasn't even talking about you. You misunderstood.
  • dgwglenn
    722 posts
    edited November 2013
    What, are you telling me there's been a mistake with the flags?

    Love it when threads go sideways. Highly entertaining.
  • walkerrosewood
    34 posts
    edited November 2013
    haha. Mayflower from couch gag tonight.

    /thread.
  • 80sarcades
    117 posts
    edited November 2013
    I'm far less concerned by the "mistakes" made on the ship than I am by the mistakes made on this forum discussing it.

    The Union Jack is only called so when it's on a ship. Otherwise it's the Union Flag. (Yes, I know this is debated, but that's the strict definitions.)

    It also doesn't represent Britain; it represents the United Kingdom. They are not the same things (Great Britain doesn't include Northern Ireland - it's "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", to give it its full title).

    As for the UK being part of Europe, well, that's largely irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, but. The UK is part of the European Union, which isn't the same thing as being part of "Europe", though it does depend on exactly what you mean when you say "Europe" - i.e. whether it's the continent, economy, etc. Since the UK doesn't even use the Euro and is separated from the continent (as GB is an island, as is Ireland) it's arguable that it's not part of either, strictly speaking. It's definitely not comparable to, say, Seattle being part of the USA. It's not like each country in the EU is a "state" of Europe. There are far too many differences to think of it that way.

    And Marco, for the rest of your comment, people in the UK are, and should be, taught about countries close to them because they're part of shared history. Royal families of the UK have a history going waaaaaaay back of intermingling with and marrying royals from neighbouring countries. People in the USA are, and should be, taught about the UK because that's where the majority of its founding population came from. The UK's history is, for the most part, the USA's history. And yes, knowing about any other country makes you "international". It doesn't matter how far away from your home country that country is.

    That said, all the comments about people in the UK not knowing the difference and flying it upside down are bang on. Just goes to show how little people are taught these days. Maybe they're all too busy learning about China and starting threads on the Mulan forums about how historically inaccurate that is.

    Still a great post :D
  • paul4ro
    50 posts
    edited November 2013
    paul4ro wrote:
    The fact is that Great Britain is not the same thing as the United Kingdom. Mass appropriation of mis-referencing is not a justification for doing so, the same way millions of people liking <insert popular musical artist you dislike here> does not make them an excellent judge of talent.

    Words mean whatever the person who said them meant. From the Oxford dictionary:

    "Great Britain is the name for the island that comprises England, Scotland, and Wales, although the term is also used loosely to refer to the United Kingdom."

    You may not watch Stephen Fry, but it is the same snobbish misplaced sense of pedantry that he has. That comment you made on something subjective such as "talent" sums it up.

    Um. I'm sorry, but you can't say "words mean whatever the person who said them meant" and then quote from the Dictionary, i.e. a book that documents what words mean. Either they mean what they mean, or they mean whatever the person who said them meant. Pick one.

    The comment I made about talent was to further explain the idea that the majority doing something or holding a particular opinion does not make it right. It HAD to be about something subjective; it's got nothing to do with pedantry. If you want something less (but still slightly) subjective, take ****. He was voted into power. (True, he then refused to fairly give it up, but initially, he was voted in.) The majority voted for ****. Does that mean it was the right thing to do? I think it's safe to assume you'll agree with me when I say no, it wasn't. So, the argument of "lots of people say Britain and mean the UK, so we should all do it" isn't sound.

    You seem to think in a very black and white manner, when really most things are more nuanced than that. Words only ever get into dictionaries of an evolving language due to common use in the first place.

    And "Britain" is used frequently by the the Prime Minister, most politicians, numerous historians, and many publications, including the likes of The Economist which uses it as preferred terminology. Accept it, it doesn't matter. It's the same country, and even back on the 17th century days of the Mayflower the who British Isles was under the power of the Crown, making such pedantic differences just as irrelevant. A similar thing goes for symbols e.g. it is only in recent times where people have come to see the Saint George's cross to represent England in British contexts, as in the past it was used on numerous British territories across the world (and of course in other non-British countries like Georgia where it originated).
  • Arlandria606
    519 posts
    edited November 2013
    paul4ro wrote:
    paul4ro wrote:
    The fact is that Great Britain is not the same thing as the United Kingdom. Mass appropriation of mis-referencing is not a justification for doing so, the same way millions of people liking <insert popular musical artist you dislike here> does not make them an excellent judge of talent.

    Words mean whatever the person who said them meant. From the Oxford dictionary:

    "Great Britain is the name for the island that comprises England, Scotland, and Wales, although the term is also used loosely to refer to the United Kingdom."

    You may not watch Stephen Fry, but it is the same snobbish misplaced sense of pedantry that he has. That comment you made on something subjective such as "talent" sums it up.

    Um. I'm sorry, but you can't say "words mean whatever the person who said them meant" and then quote from the Dictionary, i.e. a book that documents what words mean. Either they mean what they mean, or they mean whatever the person who said them meant. Pick one.

    The comment I made about talent was to further explain the idea that the majority doing something or holding a particular opinion does not make it right. It HAD to be about something subjective; it's got nothing to do with pedantry. If you want something less (but still slightly) subjective, take ****. He was voted into power. (True, he then refused to fairly give it up, but initially, he was voted in.) The majority voted for ****. Does that mean it was the right thing to do? I think it's safe to assume you'll agree with me when I say no, it wasn't. So, the argument of "lots of people say Britain and mean the UK, so we should all do it" isn't sound.

    You seem to think in a very black and white manner, when really most things are more nuanced than that. Words only ever get into dictionaries of an evolving language due to common use in the first place.

    And "Britain" is used frequently by the the Prime Minister, most politicians, numerous historians, and many publications, including the likes of The Economist which uses it as preferred terminology. Accept it, it doesn't matter. It's the same country, and even back on the 17th century days of the Mayflower the who British Isles was under the power of the Crown, making such pedantic differences just as irrelevant. A similar thing goes for symbols e.g. it is only in recent times where people have come to see the Saint George's cross to represent England in British contexts, as in the past it was used on numerous British territories across the world (and of course in other non-British countries like Georgia where it originated).

    Sigh.

    You've said "lots of people say it, so accept it" a few times now. My rebuttal to your statement is that lots of people saying something doesn't make it correct. I've had to repeat myself a couple of times now, too. You can continue the discussion by refuting my rebuttal, or you can attack something else I've said. Going back a step and repeating yourself doesn't further the conversation. It's tiresome.

    As for "pedantic" differences being irrelevant, that depends entirely on the context. If I were to sell you Great Britain and you bought it because you wanted Northern Ireland, you'd be pretty annoyed when your lawyer points out that Britain and the UK aren't the same thing and you have no right to it. You may feel it's irrelevant to this context. I don't. Perhaps we should agree to disagree on that.

    As an aside, I've been meaning to mention that in regards to the flags in the game being correct because they reflect the episode that the item references, I entirely agree with you. (As for whether the flags in the episode are "correct" or not, well, that's a whole other discussion that I'm not going to touch with a 50-foot flagpole.)
  • tyfish
    14 posts
    edited November 2013
    paul4ro wrote:
    paul4ro wrote:
    The fact is that Great Britain is not the same thing as the United Kingdom. Mass appropriation of mis-referencing is not a justification for doing so, the same way millions of people liking <insert popular musical artist you dislike here> does not make them an excellent judge of talent.

    Words mean whatever the person who said them meant. From the Oxford dictionary:

    "Great Britain is the name for the island that comprises England, Scotland, and Wales, although the term is also used loosely to refer to the United Kingdom."

    You may not watch Stephen Fry, but it is the same snobbish misplaced sense of pedantry that he has. That comment you made on something subjective such as "talent" sums it up.

    Um. I'm sorry, but you can't say "words mean whatever the person who said them meant" and then quote from the Dictionary, i.e. a book that documents what words mean. Either they mean what they mean, or they mean whatever the person who said them meant. Pick one.

    The comment I made about talent was to further explain the idea that the majority doing something or holding a particular opinion does not make it right. It HAD to be about something subjective; it's got nothing to do with pedantry. If you want something less (but still slightly) subjective, take ****. He was voted into power. (True, he then refused to fairly give it up, but initially, he was voted in.) The majority voted for ****. Does that mean it was the right thing to do? I think it's safe to assume you'll agree with me when I say no, it wasn't. So, the argument of "lots of people say Britain and mean the UK, so we should all do it" isn't sound.

    You seem to think in a very black and white manner, when really most things are more nuanced than that. Words only ever get into dictionaries of an evolving language due to common use in the first place.

    And "Britain" is used frequently by the the Prime Minister, most politicians, numerous historians, and many publications, including the likes of The Economist which uses it as preferred terminology. Accept it, it doesn't matter. It's the same country, and even back on the 17th century days of the Mayflower the who British Isles was under the power of the Crown, making such pedantic differences just as irrelevant. A similar thing goes for symbols e.g. it is only in recent times where people have come to see the Saint George's cross to represent England in British contexts, as in the past it was used on numerous British territories across the world (and of course in other non-British countries like Georgia where it originated).

    Sigh.

    You've said "lots of people say it, so accept it" a few times now. My rebuttal to your statement is that lots of people saying something doesn't make it correct. I've had to repeat myself a couple of times now, too. You can continue the discussion by refuting my rebuttal, or you can attack something else I've said. Going back a step and repeating yourself doesn't further the conversation. It's tiresome.

    As for "pedantic" differences being irrelevant, that depends entirely on the context. If I were to sell you Great Britain and you bought it because you wanted Northern Ireland, you'd be pretty annoyed when your lawyer points out that Britain and the UK aren't the same thing and you have no right to it. You may feel it's irrelevant to this context. I don't. Perhaps we should agree to disagree on that.

    As an aside, I've been meaning to mention that in regards to the flags in the game being correct because they reflect the episode that the item references, I entirely agree with you. (As for whether the flags in the episode are "correct" or not, well, that's a whole other discussion that I'm not going to touch with a 50-foot flagpole.)



    This is simple:


    Britian is the island that contains England, Scotland & Wales.
    Great Britian is the group of islands that includes Britian, Eire, Isle of Man etc, the British Isles .
    United Kingdom is the political alliance between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland forming an sovereign state.

    The flag is called "the Union Flag"
    The Union Jack is flown at sea only, that is what a "jack" is.

    Europe is a continent, the British Isles is part of that continent.
    The European Union is a political union between independent states for the purpose of trade and defence, the UK is part of this union.

    Hope this clears up any confusion :?

    P.S: I was taught at school how to hang the flag, so were my kids, find it worrying that anyone would get it wrong (would excuse the Yanks for doing it tho.......)
  • Arlandria606
    519 posts
    edited November 2013
    tyfish wrote:
    This is simple:

    Britian is the island that contains England, Scotland & Wales.
    Great Britian is the group of islands that includes Britian, Eire, Isle of Man etc, the British Isles .
    United Kingdom is the political alliance between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland forming an sovereign state.

    The flag is called "the Union Flag"
    The Union Jack is flown at sea only, that is what a "jack" is.

    Europe is a continent, the British Isles is part of that continent.
    The European Union is a political union between independent states for the purpose of trade and defence, the UK is part of this union.

    Hope this clears up any confusion :?

    P.S: I was taught at school how to hang the flag, so were my kids, find it worrying that anyone would get it wrong (would excuse the Yanks for doing it tho.......)

    No confusion over here...
  • marco_rosa833
    366 posts
    edited November 2013
    People in the USA are, and should be, taught about the UK because that's where the majority of its founding population came from. The UK's history is, for the most part, the USA's history.
    You have the United States mistaken for Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

    A little history lesson. The American Revolution basically says that the US refuses to be subservient to Great Britain. We're not a part of the UK's Commonwealth games. We're not servants to her Royal Majesty. And we sure are not celebrating the UK's colonist history! Coupled with the fact that the Pilgrims (and later immigrants) came to the United States to escape Britain and it should be understood why the general attitude toward British culture/history in the United States is that of apathy.
  • tyfish
    14 posts
    edited November 2013
    tyfish wrote:
    This is simple:

    Britian is the island that contains England, Scotland & Wales.
    Great Britian is the group of islands that includes Britian, Eire, Isle of Man etc, the British Isles .
    United Kingdom is the political alliance between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland forming an sovereign state.

    The flag is called "the Union Flag"
    The Union Jack is flown at sea only, that is what a "jack" is.

    Europe is a continent, the British Isles is part of that continent.
    The European Union is a political union between independent states for the purpose of trade and defence, the UK is part of this union.

    Hope this clears up any confusion :?

    P.S: I was taught at school how to hang the flag, so were my kids, find it worrying that anyone would get it wrong (would excuse the Yanks for doing it tho.......)

    No confusion over here...

    I know your on the ball mate, but Paul seems to have a few funny ideas lol
  • Arlandria606
    519 posts
    edited November 2013
    People in the USA are, and should be, taught about the UK because that's where the majority of its founding population came from. The UK's history is, for the most part, the USA's history.
    I think you have the United States mistaken for Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

    The American Revolution basically says that the US refuses to be subservient to Great Britain. We're not a part of the UK's Commonwealth games. We're not servants to her Royal Majesty. And we sure are not celebrating the UK's colonist history!

    Who said anything about the US being subservient to anyone else, or part of the Commonwealth, or celebrating anything?! Please, try and respond to what I've actually said. It makes conversation much easier and less like an acid trip.

    A large quantity of the early settlers in the US were from the UK. That's partly why English is the main language. Which means that in order to understand the history of the US, you need to understand some of the history of the UK. Specifically, why a bunch of people up and left it to go live in the US. Those people's history is UK history and, therefore, there's an overlap between US history and UK history. It's got nothing to do with anything you've mentioned.
  • joeythelemur714
    178 posts
    edited November 2013
    Wait, wait... I made a long-winded post correcting people and I'm not being flamed and attacked in poorly written English?

    I officially LOVE this place. <3 Thanks!

    I was going to say "wait for it...." but reading through the rest of the this thread, it wasn't needed.
  • __NedIsRed__
    3 posts
    edited November 2013
    People in the USA are, and should be, taught about the UK because that's where the majority of its founding population came from. The UK's history is, for the most part, the USA's history.
    You have the United States mistaken for Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

    A little history lesson. The American Revolution basically says that the US refuses to be subservient to Great Britain. We're not a part of the UK's Commonwealth games. We're not servants to her Royal Majesty. And we sure are not celebrating the UK's colonist history! Coupled with the fact that the Pilgrims (and later immigrants) came to the United States to escape Britain and it should be understood why the general attitude toward British culture/history in the United States is that of apathy.

    The American Revolution was a thing that happened. Not a document that can say anything. From what I know, the British felt that they had supported the growth of America and deserved to be able to Tax it, the Americans felt they were treated harshly (with justification.) In the end it doesn't really matter as history has happened.

    But given that many people can trace their roots to all over the UK & Europe; its makes sense for them to be taught about things that happened in Europe. Which was Arlandria606's point.


  • 10011137
    36 posts
    edited November 2013
    TSTOgame wrote:
    I've elaborated further on the subject on my blog, but yes the developers missed the mark twice with this premium decoration. The Union Jack shown is about 200 years ahead of it's time. Also, the flag for Denmark is shown instead of Saint George's Cross.

    This might not bother some people, but for a game that plays to an international audience, you would think the developers would try a little harder to get their facts straight.

    If you want to be that correct, this is the flag of Denmark:
    800px-Flag_of_Denmark-proportions-en.svg.png

    The white cross must be 1/7 of the flag's height. The two first fields must be square in form and the two outer fields must be 6/4 lengths of those

    So no, not that either.

    ...

    Point should be, this is how The Mayflower actually appeared in the series: Mayflower-tv1.jpg

    So, yes, they are incorrect since they aren't the same as in the series.

    But wait, here's another one (and on this one an actual Danish naval flag):
    Mayflower-tv3.jpg



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