Shouldn't assists be slower?
Assists are there to help newer players, but they should have a lower ceiling. Why is it that with ABS on you are faster? I enjoy driving without assists and having the real feel of total control ...
Forum Discussion
@ScarDuck14 Valid points.
But is it like this in other games/genres too? With E-sports level players being able to perform better or would gain an advantage at top level, if they were using any in-game aid or assist? Ex. CoD, Fifa or… any game really.
(Honest question. I only play racing games nowadays, so I don’t have a clue what goes on in other game/E-sport genres anymore)
It isn’t a big issue for the E-sport drivers because the official series and the top tiers of the biggest leagues DON’T ALLOW any assits.
But it’s imo kinda sad that smaller (normal) leagues have such diffculty filling up or don’t even bother trying to run a ’no assist tier’ anymore. Because the Racing Line and especially ABS is incredibly helpful in this game.
It’s a good thing they exist, but it doesn’t make sense to me why they need to THIS powerful?
And I believe the f1 online/competitive community suffers quite alot as a consequence. (There are a million of other reasons it suffers also).
I have a love/hate relationship with f1 league racing. I don’t mind racing and competing against drivers who use assists. But the fact that I know many racers with insane talent and pace (far better than me), who I’ve raced with/against since 2019, and they still use ABS and Racing Line assist, even though they could easily keep their pace without them. Their reasoning: ”Why risk it?”
And that kinda makes me think the game could benefit from a tiny tiny (just a little) ABS nerf.
I do agree that the game should remain fun, engaging and accessible for every and all level of players.
And I don’t believe a slightly less op abs would get in the way of that.
But is it like this in other games/genres too? With E-sports level players being able to perform better or would gain an advantage at top level, if they were using any in-game aid or assist? Ex. CoD, Fifa or… any game really.
(Honest question. I only play racing games nowadays, so I don’t have a clue what goes on in other game/E-sport genres anymore)
It isn’t a big issue for the E-sport drivers because the official series and the top tiers of the biggest leagues DON’T ALLOW any assits.
But it’s imo kinda sad that smaller (normal) leagues have such diffculty filling up or don’t even bother trying to run a ’no assist tier’ anymore. Because the Racing Line and especially ABS is incredibly helpful in this game.
It’s a good thing they exist, but it doesn’t make sense to me why they need to THIS powerful?
And I believe the f1 online/competitive community suffers quite alot as a consequence. (There are a million of other reasons it suffers also).
I have a love/hate relationship with f1 league racing. I don’t mind racing and competing against drivers who use assists. But the fact that I know many racers with insane talent and pace (far better than me), who I’ve raced with/against since 2019, and they still use ABS and Racing Line assist, even though they could easily keep their pace without them. Their reasoning: ”Why risk it?”
And that kinda makes me think the game could benefit from a tiny tiny (just a little) ABS nerf.
I do agree that the game should remain fun, engaging and accessible for every and all level of players.
And I don’t believe a slightly less op abs would get in the way of that.
@WigglyStyle I guess from my experience. On fast straights with heavy braking zones. You have to be on the brakes sooner compared to without. Initial Advantage not using ABS. If you’re not using ABS you’re comfortable braking into tight corners so more often than not don’t lock up. The advantage for ABS is provided you’ve not drastically missed your braking point you don’t have to worry about miss the corner entirely.
Braking into medium corners or a quick dab in twisty sections will have the same result for Abs or not
So if you don’t use ABS and you can avoid locking up you should always have a slight edge. But the risks are obviously greater. Majority of people who use ABS use it cause they genuinely need it. If that’s the case they will be slower but also safer for you when you attacking them into tight corners. As they would defend the inside: you will outbrake them in the outside and turn in If average racer don’t have ABS. You know he’s locking up and going to slide straight into you. Least with ABS they have a much higher chance of taking avoiding action. Just as you do irl.
Kind of same with racing line. Most using it cause they need it. I doubt it because they don’t know the racing line. I’d imagine as it’s the easiest way to know where to brake. Which benefits everyone in race as it cuts down on having average joe braking where you least expect them to or wandering off line. They willl and do their best to follow the line. Besides most tracks the racing line and braking indicator isn’t fastest way round track…. But will say that’s marble dependent as they seem to be added everywhere the racing line isn’t.
If insanely good drivers use assists cause they can exploit a few extra tenths of a lap time. Understand people do these things. They may beat you in the race. Don’t let it bother you. If they beat you with assists on when they would have beaten you regardless. Cups half full. In my mind I’d be yeah they only won cause they used a exploit:
Braking into medium corners or a quick dab in twisty sections will have the same result for Abs or not
So if you don’t use ABS and you can avoid locking up you should always have a slight edge. But the risks are obviously greater. Majority of people who use ABS use it cause they genuinely need it. If that’s the case they will be slower but also safer for you when you attacking them into tight corners. As they would defend the inside: you will outbrake them in the outside and turn in If average racer don’t have ABS. You know he’s locking up and going to slide straight into you. Least with ABS they have a much higher chance of taking avoiding action. Just as you do irl.
Kind of same with racing line. Most using it cause they need it. I doubt it because they don’t know the racing line. I’d imagine as it’s the easiest way to know where to brake. Which benefits everyone in race as it cuts down on having average joe braking where you least expect them to or wandering off line. They willl and do their best to follow the line. Besides most tracks the racing line and braking indicator isn’t fastest way round track…. But will say that’s marble dependent as they seem to be added everywhere the racing line isn’t.
If insanely good drivers use assists cause they can exploit a few extra tenths of a lap time. Understand people do these things. They may beat you in the race. Don’t let it bother you. If they beat you with assists on when they would have beaten you regardless. Cups half full. In my mind I’d be yeah they only won cause they used a exploit:
@ScarDuck14I don't know what your talking about but 99% of players are significantly faster with ABS turned on, pretty much everyone I know is faster with ABS on, maybe some have a slight tiny bit of an advantage with it being off,but those are esports drivers probably.
- @TigerAlen410 So I’m assuming majority of the time they are using ABS. Braking using ABS only requires knowing and consistently hitting your braking points. Braking without ABS does require learning different braking techniques and requires practicing to build up muscle memory. But once you have. No ABS is much quicker.
Now IRL my occupation for over 20 years I drove high powered cars at high speeds on UK roads. Most of those years all the cars I drove had ABS. Thousands upon thousands of times I hadt to stand on the brake pedal. Out off all those times ABS activated just a handful of times. It doesn’t activate every time you use the brakes. It will only becomes active at the point your wheels lock up. Then if you are still pressing down the the brake pedal ABS quickly applies the brakes on and off until you’re no longer going to lock up or you’ve taken foot off pedal. So as ABS works the same in game as it would In real life. ABS applying brake pressure on and off. Stops you from locking up so gives you some control when steering. But it increases the time and distance when braking. To be sure ABS stops you from locking up when you’re hard on the brakes It will start working well before it needs to. Whereas without ABS you are always in control of the brakes. Once you know what technique to use and how to apply it. You can brake harder and later into a corner than anyone who’s foot/finger is applying max pressure just relying on ABS.
Sorry if you know all this already but surprisingly most don’t. And FYI I use ABS in game just incase.,but maybe once or twice a race i over do it and where ABS helps me avoid the car infront who’s super early on brakes. My general technique that I’ve always used both in racing games and IRL is pulse braking. Which is basically manual ABS. But better as rather than brakes rapidly being on off. I can hard brake lift then add smaller amounts of pressure which keeps the car nicely settled just as I trail brake (Although using a pad trigger to accurately reduce brake pressure is an issue for my old stiff fingers at times)into corner.Also it doesn’t matter who’s using what assists and whether they are OP or not. It’s just a game that we play. If using max assists made me faster and the game more enjoyable to me. Then id use them and wouldn’t care about what assists others I was racing against were using or not using, All you have control over that’s important is what you do in the game and what you get out off it: Getting frustrated about how others play the game is a pointless. Cause like me they won’t care if using assists is the reason they beat you. They wouldn’t even have noticed who they were racing. It’s not a sim it’s played by people from kids to old men like me who are sitting on a couch pad in hand having fun playing a game pretending to be an awesome F1 driver.
Assists are there to help people better enjoy playtime. Even on a pad I’m massively faster without assists: Maybe alittle less consistent lap after lap: depending on track and weather I’ll use any or all assists when doing a 50% plus distance race: Depends on what I want,
I do understand you want to race against likeminded folk who don’t use assists. But dont expect to find them racing against random people in races or leagues that allow them. Just because you maybe able to drive without them it’s unreasonable and unfair to expect assists to be nerfed. As it wil just make average Joe even slower. Where he never stands a chance and gets easily beaten race after race: Before long average Joe along with all the other Joes gives up and goes play another game instead. EA don’t mean about. They have cancelled near complete games in the past when they think a game isn’t expected to make its Margin, Other AAA studios won’t risk paying for the F1 license and development budget needed to make a good F1 game.
So if we want to continue to play a F1 game we need every average Joe to want to buy and play the game. Best way is letting him use assists that give him hope he can do well
my Best suggestion is join a league that doesn’t allow assists.
ABS is supposed to do this:
Clip should start at the 3:38 mark.
So:
- Suboptimal inputs without ABS → Lock up, losing a lot of time
- Suboptimal inputs with ABS → No lock up, but still losing a bit of time
- Optimal inputs without ABS → No lock up, good time
- Optimal inputs with ABS → No lock up, and should set virtually the same time as "3"*
The only caveat is #4, as per below. But most of the time, these discussions go on with players comparing themselves to other players while not being able to deliver 3-5 consistent laps themselves. If you have suboptmal inputs and cannot punch the clock on the same tenth lap after lap, you'll obviously benefit from using assists. Now there's no excuse for the absolute mess of leaderboards and other online features this franchise has, but just because you have players benefiting from assists in your race it does not necessarily mean that assists are to blame.
Not long ago you @TigerAlen410 were asking about how to properly set the brake bias, if dead on 50 or around 53-56. This game is for casuals and F1 fans, so there's no expectations about players knowing how to tweak setups and such, but the sort of difference between 50 and 55 BB in this game is night and day even on a controller.
I would do a double take @ScarDuck14 words and heed them well, he's been playing this franchise since Nigel Mansell sported a #5 on his nose cone and if you ever visit Brands Hatch in real life you'll spot his name on the leaderboards for those open Sunday drives.
He's got bags of experience.
Now excuse me as I'll shamelessly copy and paste an old post of mine from a couple months ago since there's zero developments or new arguments on this one:
With F1 being a simcade and with the way the competitive scene is laid out, it's to no one's surprise that discussions like this miss the mark so often.
@RVladimiro and @catchygaaaa, thank you for being sound and reasonable 👍
Let's break it down:
- Excellent driver: Rarely, if ever, overshoots their inputs. Brakes to the full capabilities of the car on any given scenario and is quick on the modulation when they sense the wheels locking up. Throttle application is on point, getting on the gas on the proper exit point as to reach wide open throttle - WOT quickly. If they ever miss it, they're quick to react and feather it just enough for the rear end to bite again or the grip to increase and enable WOT. Jarno on a good day? Let's put it like this.
- Good player: Plays with no assists and hit good lap times. Is competitive in leagues and has good standings on TT boards. Obviously not every lap is perfect and they're bound to pick up an off-track here and there, but when they nail it, they nail it. Only uses those "good", proper esports setups of LLRR or RRLL or LRRR or RLRR or whatever the meta is these days.
- Average player: Reasonable times with no assists, but they're not winning any open championships. Have fun on leagues. Feels energized whenever they break into top 20% of the TT leaderboards. When they feel pressed, they fall back on to ABS and TC on medium because why not? That podium is just right there... Also copies whatever LLRR setups they can get a hold of.
- Casual player: Loves My Team, loves Career. Plays most of the time with assists on, but can venture into no-assist territory when they feel like being precise, but are not as skillful or not inclined to give it the time to become precise with their old man/casual fingers. Don't dab with online much, too much carnage and too much unpleasantness on the lobbies that the matchmaking lock them into.
Sticking with Jarno, back when F1 22 came out he was a guest on the Traxion's podcast. He mentioned how the recently released F1 game made strides into being more realistic, punishing players for going arcadely ham on kerbs and the like, but lamented how it still wasn't enough to do away with the infamous esports line. We've all heard about it. Jarno lamented that, and though I do not follow him as closely as some of you do I'm positive he did not change his mind.
Now there's being a fast driver, and there's being good at exploiting what this simcade faulty simulation of reality enables you to get away with. Attacking a kerb like it's no one's business, getting on with bottoming out without much care in the world. And above all, getting away with unreasonable RRLL et al setups as the game does not punish you for running with unrealistic suspension geometry and stiffness.
Just this week we had @DavidGG53 giving his general guidance on everything setup related. Lengthy post where he gives a ballpark to set up every single parameter in that setup screen, always accompanied by a justification of what they choose to do so. And yet no mention of a "RRLL" or min this, max that.
The reason being, and I'm pretty confident @RVladimiro,@catchygaaaa and others with a penchant for motorsports plus the experience of ever having used a h-shifter on their life, is that those unrealistic extreme values add instability to the ride. It just so happens that you can get away with it on this simcade rendition of motor racing, specially if you're an excellent driver or a good player (list above). Now the latter will sometimes eat dirt for their ballsy moves or their lapse in focus, that's the toll the game collects for running with an extreme setup, but so what?
That said, have the good and average players ever given a reasonable setup a fair go? Back in the day of the original Codemasters Forum and, what, F1 2020 or F1 2021, I made a lengthy post myself with telemetry data showing how if you were to set a good amount of toe in on the rear axle there was no difference in straight line acceleration and top speed (tested on Monza), and the added stability in and out of corners made it so much easier to brake and apply throttle. It was just free stability, all pluses with no drawbacks.
And yet, RRLL everywhere.
Jarno again and many other esports players often put out the infamous "does assist make you faster?" sort of video. Please bear in mind that these are made for entertainment, engagement and views on their channels, and the methodology varies from "oh that's actually reasonable" to non-existent, so they're not all worth the same. I'm particularly fond of Jarno's, and I always remember this one. His results:
In the video he explains why ABS made him 0.1 slower but why he felt he could have been 0.1 faster.
Now how much faster assists make you?
To tie it all up:
- Excellent driver: Won't gain any time using assists.
- Good player: May gain some time using assists compared to the laps they greatly overshoot their inputs, but more often than not will only make them slower. Wish they could give a fair setup a go and check if their overall laptimes over the distance wouldn't get better 😉
- Average player: Compared to themselves running without assists? Of course they will gain time! If even their good laps are 2-4% apart from each other, it is only logical that they will get more consistent hence closer to their performance ceiling with assists correcting their eventual grotesquely off the mark inputs. And again, my suspicion is that their overall laptimes would get better if they have a reasonable setup a go 😉
- Casual player: Same, but to a larger degree.
I find it deeply contradictory that the "good" and even the "average" players of the bullet list above so often demand that assists get nerfed to oblivion but do not give a hoot about RRLL setups being usable. They get vexed with average players nibbling close with assists on, when they should truly care about unreasonably unstable cars driving on unrealistic lines getting away from them.
Just my two (lengthy) cents. People wouldn't feel the need to nerf assists that often if the game wasn't so simcadey.
