Forward builds/ Defense Builds
How about a simple change to make it so, IF you play forward you have to use a forward loadout and defense you have to use a defense loadout. So tired of seeing PMD on winger, and PWF on defense. It’...
Forum Discussion
@SuperDad440
Ask yourself why it matters.
Elite edges (a physical attribute which makes no sense to be gated behind specific player types) and the stats being weighted to prevent a forward from being both mobile and defensive.
Ask yourself why it matters.
Elite edges (a physical attribute which makes no sense to be gated behind specific player types) and the stats being weighted to prevent a forward from being both mobile and defensive.
The WOC class system as a whole needs to be rethought. I'm not sure there's a silver bullet but the current system where most of the player base ends up using more or less the same two or three builds because they're that much better than everything else is clearly not working as intended. And up front I want to say that I'm talking about how most of the player-base plays the game. Yes, a small amount of elite players can make non-meta builds work for them, but the vast, vast majority of players end up railroaded into the meta builds just to keep up. I'll also say that while having a meta play style is to be somewhat expected in video games, the build meta for WOC has been pretty much exactly the same for years without any meaningful balancing.
Comparisons to real-life players probably isn't useful. It inevitably leads down the same rabbit hole: McDavid is big and super-fast so my WOC build should be able to do that. Ovechkin is big and can shoot so my build should be big, as fast as McDavid and shoot like Ovechkin. Lindros could hit so I should be able to have a build as big as Lindros that can hit, skate like McDavid, and shoot like Ovechkin. etc, etc, etc. Might as well just give everyone the same big, fast, hard-shooting, hard-hitting build. And who knows, maybe that would be the best thing for the mode. This is probably going to be considered blasphemous to a lot of people here, but for me one of the best post-NHL 15 year for builds ( not necessarily gameplay ) was NHL 16. Fixed builds and most importantly everyone had the same skating attributes. With no arms race to keep up with max speed builds people were free to run with a build that fit their style of play the best. I kind of miss it at times.
But fixed builds are a thing of the past, everyone wants customization. And unless customization is just going to mean "I want to be good at everything" there needs to be trade-offs, which makes sense from a video-game/RPG perspective. This is where the EASHL custom build system has always failed. There are trade-offs, but there aren't meaningful trade-offs.
Consider speed and acceleration ( ignoring the yearly "does acceleration do anything?" debate ). Almost every build I see completely strips the four shot attributes in order to pour everything into speed and acceleration. And why not? The skating attributes have a meaningful impact on the game while the difference between mid-80s shooting attributes and low-70s is so insignificant as to be unnoticeable. It's the same reason why people run with lightweight, short builds. The trade-off of balance, checking and strength don't matter enough to counter the upside of being fast and agile.
It creeps into other areas too. Every year I start out trying a more defensively geared forward build for center. Usually TWF or Grinder. And every year I end up running some waif of a sniper because I don't notice a meaningful difference between high and low defensive awareness and stick checking attributes. So I end up going with the build that can best keep up with the other speedsters.
And the list can go on. There's so many attributes in EASHL that don't seem to have enough impact to the average Joe that they aren't just fodder to be stripped and dumped into the handful of attributes that matter.
I wish I could offer a perfect solution, but I don't think one exists. If the current system is going to continue I do have two suggestions. First, make attribute choices matter. If you max out in one area you should be equally terrible in another. And the downside needs to have as much in-game impact as the upside. Second, maybe don't have the system set up so the builds with the highest important attributes ( skating as things are now ) are also the builds with the highest base offensive attributes.
As I write this I keep circling back to fixed builds in my head. I'd be really curious to see a WOC mode where everybody played with the exact same build. I wonder how that would play out?
@PlayoffErrora big part of the draw for me in eashl/woc has always been making my build/builds my own. I understand where your coming from by saying fixed builds are better for a competitive environment and that there will always be issues with balancing otherwise but I don't see how that's any different than the best of the best all running the same meta build anyways.
My club quit after 15 with the direction eashl took as far as builds and the whole game mode went. I'd be open to more progression with builds again myself but also don't have as much time to invest anymore but still would have obtained a legend 3 card by this point or whatever the system is.
I agree that EA needs a new idea for player progression in woc that has meaning throughout the games life cycle besides simply unlocking boosts and perks by level 50, it's all over after a month or two of release. The whole plus or minus 5 points per attribute never sat great with me but seemed better than what was on offer when I bailed after 15 so it drew me back as I figured I can put my own spin on things again but in reality find myself doing the same cookie cutter approach on most builds as almost everybody.
As far as the original topic is concerned I am one of those players currently running a dman on the wing though I prefer the offensive dman, I think the more freedom we have to find what we like for the position we're playing is better than not having options. Not to say that all builds are balanced perfectly currently but I'd rather we have more options that are viable than a singular meta or one build for all approach.- @BabyPuncher525 Don't get me wrong, I know that the overwhelming majority of players want to be able to customize their builds. And in general I think it's a good thing too. But doesn't it seem odd that nearly everyone's "unique, personal" build ends up being more or less the same?
Virtually every game I play is filled with nothing but snipers, danglers and PMD. But I don't get the impression that those builds are chosen for any reason other than they can get you max, or near-max speed. The only choice is which player type gets you the gold x-factor you want.
I never see people at even a basic competitive level really lean into what should be the strengths of their player type. Where are the slow snipers with maxed shooting attributes? Or slow Jagr-like dangler with maxed balance and puck control? They don't really exist because skating attributes eclipse literally everything else.- @PlayoffError I think we're on the same page here, just have a different idea of what a good solution would be.
Even my OD on the wing has near base shooting with 93 speed. I get my gold one tee and still have some decent defense attributes this way but it's really no different of an approach to any build in this game. Speed trumps any advantage you may gain with a few extra points in shooting imo and that seems to be the popular consensus also. Attacking off the rush with speed and driving the net is always going to be a strong play if you have any sort of step on the defense but the emphasis on speed alone seems to have gone too far now.
@PlayoffErrorGreat write-up and so true. I feel a big problem is the superstar abilities require too little of points to activate.
I've written some of the stuff how I would like to see it done going forward.
Speed (built into size and weight)
Balance (built into size and weight)
Agility (built into size and weight)
Acceleration (built into size and weight)
Endurance (built into size and weight)
Offensive Awareness (built into build)
Defensive Awareness (built into build)
Strength (built into size and weight)
Durability (built into size and weight)
Faceoffs (built into position) (If you are a center position lock it's 90 and the rest are 80)
Fighting Skill (built into size and weight)(15pts per category, max improvement 8pts in 1 stat)
1.)Wrist Shot Acc
Wrist Shot Pwr
Slap Shot Acc
Slap Shot Pwr2.) Puck Control
Passing
Hand-Eye
Deking3.) Body Checking
Stick Checking
Shot Blocking
Discipline
Offensive Builds need moderate improvements to offensive side of stats, but moderate defensive stats
Defensive Builds need moderate improvements to defensive side of stats, but moderate offensive stats
TWF/TWD Builds need slight improvements in both areas ever so slightlyExample Offensive Build-
Playmaker
Wrist Shot Accuracy 82 --> 84
Wrist Shot Power 78 --->82
Slap Shot Accuracy 82-->84
Slap Shot Power 79-82Puck Control 88--->88
Passing 90--->90
Hand-Eye 84--> 85
Deking 83 ---> 85Body Checking 81---> 75
Stick Checking 78---> 75
Shot Blocking 78--->75
Discipline 82--->78
Example Defensive Build-
Grinder
Wrist Shot Accuracy 80 --> 76
Wrist Shot Power 82 ---> 80
Slap Shot Accuracy 80 --->76
Slap Shot Power 82--->80Puck Control 83 --->82
Passing 80-->80
Hand-Eye 86--->87
Deking 75--->72Body Checking 83-->87
Stick Checking 88-->90
Shot Blocking 90-->90
Discipline 88-->90Example Two-Way Build
TWF
Wrist Shot Accuracy 83--->83
Wrist Shot Power 81-->82
Slap Shot Accuracy 82-->82
Slap Shot Power 81-->82Puck Control 84-->85
Passing 85-->86
Hand-Eye 83--> 85
Deking 80--->80Body Checking 82-->83
Stick Checking 85 -->87
Shot Blocking 85 -->86
Discipline 84-->87
---------------------------------
Then I believe we need to change the whole Zone Ability and Superstar Abilities up. They need to be tiered depending on points put into the stats required. We need a Bronze, Silver, and Gold. Bronze = .5% improvement to function, Silver = 1.5% improvement to function, and Gold = 3% improvement to a functionSo let's the way too popular build of Elite Edges.
Bronze Requirements - 82 Agility and 82 Accel
Silver Requirement - 85 Agility and 85 Accel
Gold - 88 agility and 88 Accel
Obviously these are just ideas but it's how I'd like the future of the WOC builds to go. Many of the stats should just be tied to your height and weight without anyway to change besides adding a boost. That might make more builds viable for the future.- @KlariskraysNHL That's the draw with some of the zone abilities is that there is no minimum requirement imo, it let's you make up for a aspect of your build without having to over spend xp on that aspect. I just see perks being too powerful or pointless if you have to invest most of a categories xp just to get a certain tier of a perk, to me that's a diminishing return instead of spreading your xp out and letting the perk make up for some of that. All depends what template is in place for trade off of having something higher vs something lower. I do like the idea of linking your skating to your physical size to a stricter extent.
I feel like the perks could disappear entirely and that wouldn't really be a negative all together. There are only a handful that arguably do anything for the average player. Most of them I would describe as placebo perks that are hard to quantify or notice their effects consistently.- @BabyPuncher525 Yeah but say you want gold one tee. I'm not sure how they work exactly but I would assume they modify the stat boost when the shot happens.
So say you have bronze you are only getting small boost where as investing all those points in the gold version probably puts you close to say 95 to 99 for max effectiveness.
Most people aren't looking to be average across the board they want to excel in areas. Instead of feeling like a 3rd shooter you can feel like MacKinnon, Stamkos, Ovechkin in their primes ripping a slapper almost guaranteeing a goal if set up right.
