NHL Team
@llamaverox wrote:In sports games you cite Madden and FC and for years they have gotten bad community reviews yet they still sell
This is because people post and spread unfavorable "reviews" after they spend $100+ on a new HUt/FUT/MUt team and take a few losses.
When people spend money and expect to win and they don't, they're going to bash the game relentlessly and obsessively. It perfectly explains the reasoning as to why someone who "hates" the game, "will never buy it" and thinks "it will never get better" spends countless hours on all social channels for said game trying to convince anyone who will listen to agree with them.
Also, sports games change year after year. New Mechanics, New controls... if a certain segment of the population doesn't master the new controls and begin dominating the leaderboards "like they did last year" - then they think all of the changes are garbage and start bashing the game, posting poor reviews etc in some weird attempt to delfect any responsibility from actually learning new mechanics.
Obligatory - I Don't think the game is perfect. I'm not saying everyone who posts complaints or bad reviews is a butt hurt HUt bunny - Be a Pro, Franchise.. I don't play them but there are legit complaints about years long bugs in those modes.
My point being - sports games from any company are always going to have a subset of users who will obsessively spend their time arguing that the game sucks and insist everyone see things from their point of view, otherwise you're just a 'shill'
Community Manager
@llamaverox wrote:
@KidShowtime1867 I'd also like to point out, I've made several post in this forum of games I have won where I am pointing out significant flaws in what I consider to be bad gameplay. My issues with this game are consistency and the lack of simulation. Losing a game because the game lacks consistency. Is not fun. What also isn't fun? Winning games because of it. I have not had only a handful of games where I felt good about winning it, because it feels cheesy to score in this game. You have to cheese the goalies to score. You don't cheese them going for the same 3 or 4 ways to score you aren't scoring. Which is just badly designed gameplay. We just plainly disagree that the issues with this game are related to losing,
Can you give me examples of consistency? Having every scenario play out the same every time doesn't sound very simulation with hockey being the dynamic sport that it is.
@EA_Aljo wrote:
@llamaverox wrote:
@KidShowtime1867I'd also like to point out, I've made several post in this forum of games I have won where I am pointing out significant flaws in what I consider to be bad gameplay. My issues with this game are consistency and the lack of simulation. Losing a game because the game lacks consistency. Is not fun. What also isn't fun? Winning games because of it. I have not had only a handful of games where I felt good about winning it, because it feels cheesy to score in this game. You have to cheese the goalies to score. You don't cheese them going for the same 3 or 4 ways to score you aren't scoring. Which is just badly designed gameplay. We just plainly disagree that the issues with this game are related to losing,Can you give me examples of consistency? Having every scenario play out the same every time doesn't sound very simulation with hockey being the dynamic sport that it is.
Things you have already said are not issues, such as sticks going through bodies and pucks and players keeping the puck.
When trying to defend passing lanes, pucks going right through players, as offense has 100% puck pickup on passes but defense is completely out to dry on it.
Stick lifts going right through sticks despite being in proper position, and sometimes even getting the sound for a stick lift and it still being a penalty.
Phantom cross check and elbows just because the game wants more drama.
AI literally standing still on the breakout creating pylons you have to avoid.
There are so many little issues that pop up that are frustrating. Give me a simulation game one year and I promise it outsells the arcadey games your team are producing.
Also a simulation game means an in depth franchise mode that has meaning for winning stanley cups, part of what makes franchise mode not fun is it is barebones. You win a stanley cup there is no tangible difference between that and being the first overall pick. There needs to be systems in place, like the radio calls of be a pro need to be in franchise mode. Have prestiege of your teams matter as far as free agents or salary negotiations. There are so many little things that would make a more meaningful game.
https://youtu.be/pxE8oGbasIs?si=FM_4bIVe7F45BHhf
This video does a good job of showing it.
The responses from community members on this forum are so out of field for what Mike says.
@llamaverox wrote:When trying to defend passing lanes, pucks going right through players, as offense has 100% puck pickup on passes but defense is completely out to dry on it.
Not true. Although there are some clips showing a puck phasing through a stick blade, the defensive victimhood of "the offense has 100% puck pickup" is not going to get you better outcomes in these scenarios.
You can absolutely be in a passing lane and guarantee 100% interception if you properly position your player in order to do so. If you can't, then you engage the intended recipient. Defence 101.
@llamaverox wrote:Stick lifts going right through sticks despite being in proper position, and sometimes even getting the sound for a stick lift and it still being a penalty.
If an errant stick lift is executed, it will phase through the opponent's stick and if the stick lift animation comes into contact with the opponents geo, it has a high chance of triggering a penalty sequence. The solution: get better at positioning yourself for stick lifts. Don't use it as a reactionary escape when you've been stripped of the puck. It may work 1/20 times, but the other 19 times - you're at serious risk for a penalty. Many of us have adjusted and can see now that this responsibility (stick lifting) and subsequent penalties have opened the game up more.
@llamaverox wrote:Phantom cross check and elbows just because the game wants more drama.
Another piece of misinformation. This just isn't true. At all. I'm not sure if it's because many of you are unfamiliar with game development or just aren't aware of basic logic, but the penalty sequence isn't actually eyeballs on a referee executing reasoning on what they're "viewing' in front of them. These are black and white, 1's and 0's decisions. X animation with penalty keyframes activated, calculation of penalty chance based on attributes, player position etc.. execute penalty sequence, yes or no. There are no phantom calls, because the body check animation needs to be activated in order to call a cross check or elbowing penalty.
@llamaverox wrote:AI literally standing still on the breakout creating pylons you have to avoid.
Maybe because the a.i. expects passes on the breakout whereas 99% of the player-base is simply skating full speed, end-to-end trying to force a cross crease? It's also why people complain about AI offsides so much - steamrolling through the neutral zone is not a typical play but literally almost every single player implores this tactic more often than not and they wonder why the a.i. "is so brutal'. Again - human errors contributing to poor ai play.
@llamaverox wrote: Give me a simulation game one year and I promise it outsells the arcadey games your team are producing.
This is a sim. Many offline players have sliders they share that give a great experience. Online and competitive environments will never be 'sim' in terms of sliders. You need those modes to be accessible and fun to everyone while striking a balance with players who want more depth. It's tough.
Community ManagerThank you. That really helps the consistency you're talking about. Glad to see Mike's response. It certainly echoes my own conversations with him. You're always welcome to provide videos of anything you'd like reviewed. There are times sticks are supposed to pass through objects. Pucks can pass through players when contact is made with another player. It's really important to see what you're experiencing to understand if it's intended or not.
@KidShowtime1867 wrote:
@llamaverox wrote:When trying to defend passing lanes, pucks going right through players, as offense has 100% puck pickup on passes but defense is completely out to dry on it.
Not true. Although there are some clips showing a puck phasing through a stick blade, the defensive victimhood of "the offense has 100% puck pickup" is not going to get you better outcomes in these scenarios.
You can absolutely be in a passing lane and guarantee 100% interception if you properly position your player in order to do so. If you can't, then you engage the intended recipient. Defence 101.
@llamaverox wrote:Stick lifts going right through sticks despite being in proper position, and sometimes even getting the sound for a stick lift and it still being a penalty.
If an errant stick lift is executed, it will phase through the opponent's stick and if the stick lift animation comes into contact with the opponents geo, it has a high chance of triggering a penalty sequence. The solution: get better at positioning yourself for stick lifts. Don't use it as a reactionary escape when you've been stripped of the puck. It may work 1/20 times, but the other 19 times - you're at serious risk for a penalty. Many of us have adjusted and can see now that this responsibility (stick lifting) and subsequent penalties have opened the game up more.
@llamaverox wrote:Phantom cross check and elbows just because the game wants more drama.
Another piece of misinformation. This just isn't true. At all. I'm not sure if it's because many of you are unfamiliar with game development or just aren't aware of basic logic, but the penalty sequence isn't actually eyeballs on a referee executing reasoning on what they're "viewing' in front of them. These are black and white, 1's and 0's decisions. X animation with penalty keyframes activated, calculation of penalty chance based on attributes, player position etc.. execute penalty sequence, yes or no. There are no phantom calls, because the body check animation needs to be activated in order to call a cross check or elbowing penalty.
@llamaverox wrote:AI literally standing still on the breakout creating pylons you have to avoid.
Maybe because the a.i. expects passes on the breakout whereas 99% of the player-base is simply skating full speed, end-to-end trying to force a cross crease? It's also why people complain about AI offsides so much - steamrolling through the neutral zone is not a typical play but literally almost every single player implores this tactic more often than not and they wonder why the a.i. "is so brutal'. Again - human errors contributing to poor ai play.
@llamaverox wrote: Give me a simulation game one year and I promise it outsells the arcadey games your team are producing.This is a sim. Many offline players have sliders they share that give a great experience. Online and competitive environments will never be 'sim' in terms of sliders. You need those modes to be accessible and fun to everyone while striking a balance with players who want more depth. It's tough.
Completely disagree with you. Plain and simple we both have our Opinions, and we just flat out disagree. You have been on these forums disagreeing with criticism for years I don't expect that to change based on my post
@llamaverox wrote:Completely disagree with you. Plain and simple we both have our Opinions, and we just flat out disagree. You have been on these forums disagreeing with criticism for years I don't expect that to change based on my post
I've also been agreeing with a lot of the criticism, but that usually goes unnoticed 🙂
Community Manager
@llamaverox wrote:
@EA_Aljo I just think simulation is the direction the series needs to go. The closer to simulation I think the game is the better the game is.
While I don't agree with this, I'd love to see a simulation mode added to the game. In the past, whenever we've added something to the game that makes it harder, the community very heavily pushes back. I'm talking about gameplay only. Not anything to do with presentation. I'm curious why Online Versus so played so much less than HUT. It would be the more sim style mode. Also, we had a huge amount of pushback when EASHL had pre-made classes. Everyone wanted a way to boost their players.
Something else to consider is that you could see less consistency with a sim mode. We can use poke checks as an example. If you want every successful poke to move the puck out of reach of the carrier, then it wouldn't matter how contact is made. You poke the puck, it moves out of reach. What we currently have isn't full sim, but it takes into account various conditions that determine where the puck goes and who picks it up. This is based on how hard the puck is hit, how the stick makes contact, the ratings of the players involved, etc. I definitely agree there needs to be a higher level of consistency, but I think the more we head that direction, the less sim the game becomes.
@KidShowtime1867 wrote:
@llamaverox wrote:When trying to defend passing lanes, pucks going right through players, as offense has 100% puck pickup on passes but defense is completely out to dry on it.
You can absolutely be in a passing lane and guarantee 100% interception if you properly position your player in order to do so. If you can't, then you engage the intended recipient. Defence 101.
Let's not exaggerate. You can absolutely be in good position to pick off a pass and prevent the offensive player from getting a shot off and still get screwed by the game mechanics.
This happened just the other night. Defensive player facing the incoming pass, in a glide and in body position such that the offensive player should have no way to get their stick on the puck. Instead of picking off the pass or at least disrupting it with his stick the game chooses to use a kick animation which fails. Then the offensive player quite literally phases his stick through both the defender's feet/legs to get a shot off. The icing on the cake is the goalie failing to make the save because he's trying to stop a completely different shot.
And no, I don't think the correct play here is for the defender to turn his back to the play and try to shove the offensive player.
@PlayoffError wrote:And no, I don't think the correct play here is for the defender to turn his back to the play and try to shove the offensive player.
Hard disagree on that one. When you're THAT close to the crease, you should be engaging the intended recipient. No question about it.
@KidShowtime1867There is question about it, your analysis is based on ideal scenarios, when this happens every game.From all manner of distances.
Community Manager
@PlayoffError wrote:
@KidShowtime1867 wrote:
@llamaverox wrote:When trying to defend passing lanes, pucks going right through players, as offense has 100% puck pickup on passes but defense is completely out to dry on it.
You can absolutely be in a passing lane and guarantee 100% interception if you properly position your player in order to do so. If you can't, then you engage the intended recipient. Defence 101.
Let's not exaggerate. You can absolutely be in good position to pick off a pass and prevent the offensive player from getting a shot off and still get screwed by the game mechanics.
This happened just the other night. Defensive player facing the incoming pass, in a glide and in body position such that the offensive player should have no way to get their stick on the puck. Instead of picking off the pass or at least disrupting it with his stick the game chooses to use a kick animation which fails. Then the offensive player quite literally phases his stick through both the defender's feet/legs to get a shot off. The icing on the cake is the goalie failing to make the save because he's trying to stop a completely different shot.
And no, I don't think the correct play here is for the defender to turn his back to the play and try to shove the offensive player.
This is an interesting one. I agree it shouldn't happen. I also think it's a pretty edge case. The stick passing through the skate is most likely intended. Had the other skate not been lifted, the stick would have passed through it and not been able to contact the puck. Most likely, this is a very uncommon scenario.
If we had full sim and sticks didn't pass through objects, this could have played out very differently. The defender probably would have ended up getting tripped unintentionally since most people will be trying to take a shot. They don't think about the player in front of them and worry about causing a penalty. This is something the community would most be really unhappy with as it would happen constantly.
There is a world of difference between how the game should be played and how it is actually played (at least, at a semi competitive level).
In my experience, there isn't a whole lot more the defender can do. Sure, you can go down for a pass block attempt but we all know how slow and clunky that is - the moment you take your finger of the buttons you're locked into a completely useless state for about a second and the one-timer would work normally. You normally bombast a user for attempting the hit in a scenario like this -- the groundwork to real/proper defense should be line of sight.
This certainly isn't as rare as you're suggesting Aljo but at the end of the day does that really matter? We have been whining and arguing back and forth about this for years and nothing is even done to address it at all. Is there really, absolutely, positively, zero way to at least make these clips look better visually? Different animations, more unique ways of tracking the puck with limbs or leniency towards net battles?
We don't need to worry about the defender getting tripped because that would mean nerfing something for the offense - Playing D has been a Sisyphus Sim for years now
Community Manager
@TTZ_Dipsy wrote:
We don't need to worry about the defender getting tripped because that would mean nerfing something for the offense - Playing D has been a Sisyphus Sim for years now
The same would apply to defense. A scramble to slap a puck out of the zone on the PK could result in a trip if they accidentally hit the opposing player's skate that is also going for the puck. I'm just saying, it would cause a lot of very frustrating moments that wouldn't really add anything to the game. Until we have 1:1 control over the player we're controlling, animations are going to be needed.
@EA_Aljo wrote:Also, we had a huge amount of pushback when EASHL had pre-made classes. Everyone wanted a way to boost their players.
Just wanted to say I don't think this necessarily has to do with sim vs arcade, more customization vs competitive standardization. I think the community enjoyed the role playing aspects of unlocking and customizing their load out and while standardized classes created a more equal footing, it felt more empty. Also, I think you guys got the balance between standardization and customization right with allowing a measured amount of customization with everyone starting from the same place. So nice work.
I think most players deep down understand that sim vs arcade is more a spectrum and not a binary decision. I would be in favor of pushing the slider a little more toward the sim side, but understand in order for the game to feel good, and even feel like a sim, there are some arcadey elements at play.
I personally think the bigger issue is just how easy it is to offensively give and receive passes but yes, losing momentum upon collision would make things interesting - Of course that would force an obscene amount of new animations, tracking, and saves to be created to the point it's unfortunately not entirely worth it. Without them I see the goalie becoming even more of a floppy chicken out there.
The problem with these new builds is the feeling of choice. Yes, of course it was just the illusion of choice back in '14 with "fully" customizable builds, but you actually felt like you could fine tun to your exact specifications; these new ones are much more restricted: Perfect for the 5v5 and 6v6 crowd, but definitely not balanced (or at least fun) for other modes like 3v3.
You've completely forgotten about Ones, Eliminator has an extremely clear meta akin to the old 3on3 Arcade game just without goalie hitting, and Pro-AM really doesn't matter.
It's so strange to me that even after using boosters, some builds still can't even get maxed out stats that actually play into their unique traits/strengths.
Community Manager
@PlayoffError wrote:
@TTZ_Dipsy The obvious solution to me would to have the offensive player's stick either bounce off or just stop when it makes contact with the defender's leg. Just don't allow shot animations to phase through players.
I'm sure we could base whether or not a trip is caused on the offending player's discipline as well as the overall force of the attempted shot. Regardless, it seems like it would interrupt the flow of the game too much as I could see this happening very frequently. Unfortunately, without more precise control of the stick, we're going to need the stick to pass through bodies and objects at times. This has definitely gotten better over the years. It's just still not at a point where we can have full contact without causing more frustration than fun.
I think the thing about the sim vs arcade thing is that, at the end of the day, this is still a video game, and so it's not going to be 100% representative of real-life hockey. The goal would be trying to find a balance where the game is still fun and flows very well while also not being cartoonish.
Currently, I think the game looks and feels like the end fight of Captain America: Civil War. Games look like 10 superheroes are flying around with their X-Factor powers. I'm mildly surprised there isn't a giant blue laser beam shining down at center ice.
I'd like to see more diversity in the builds used in the game. Currently, the meta is to use a puck-moving defenseman at around 6'/160 lbs. with gold elite edges and some combination of close quarters/tape to tape/one tee. Most competitive 6s/3s players use some variation of that kind of build, and it's understandable because there's really no reason to use any other kind of build. 6s/3s is all about maxing out your speed and bee-lining until you're in range for close quarters to activate, or forcing a pass. It's incredibly dull.
@EA_Aljo wrote:
@PlayoffError wrote:
@TTZ_DipsyThe obvious solution to me would to have the offensive player's stick either bounce off or just stop when it makes contact with the defender's leg. Just don't allow shot animations to phase through players.I'm sure we could base whether or not a trip is caused on the offending player's discipline as well as the overall force of the attempted shot. Regardless, it seems like it would interrupt the flow of the game too much as I could see this happening very frequently. Unfortunately, without more precise control of the stick, we're going to need the stick to pass through bodies and objects at times. This has definitely gotten better over the years. It's just still not at a point where we can have full contact without causing more frustration than fun.
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I don't see where tripping comes into it. I'm not advocating for sticks never passing through bodies and objects, it's definitely a necessary evil. But in this case I don't see how gameplay would become more frustrating if a shot animation that causes the shooters stick to pass through a defender's body would result in the shooter not interacting with the puck.
In an ideal world I'd prefer that the shot animation would be interrupted and the stick just stop when it comes into contact with defender's body. This would both stop the shot and prevent the shooter from picking up the puck immediately after the shot animation finishes once their stick is in a position it should never get to in the first place.
That's not likely to be feasible any time soon. My second option would be to allow the shot animation to play out as it does now, but to not allow the stick to make any contact with the puck on the other side. This would at least not allow 'impossible' shots to occur.
In general I'd just like to see more consistency. If I'm skating without the puck my stick will regularly interact with other players as if they're both physical objects. This is good IMO. I've posted and seen other people post videos of defensive plays that don't quite look right and often the answer is that their stick touched another player's stick or body which prevented them from interacting with the puck. A bit frustrating, but it's consistent so it at least can be understood.
But on offence shot animations can phase through bodies and still get the shot off and players with the puck can just move their stick through defenders at will. The slight loss of possession they get is so short that it effectively doesn't matter in far too many cases. I've advocated before that the time between when a player with the puck's stick passes through a defensive player and when they can interact with the puck again needs to be lengthened somewhat. It's just too short right now IMO.
@PlayoffError wrote:My second option would be to allow the shot animation to play out as it does now, but to not allow the stick to make any contact with the puck on the other side. This would at least not allow 'impossible' shots to occur.
People would be here raging with their zoomed-in instant replay clips of shot animations not connecting with pucks, with no understanding of the underlying logic in why that happens. We see this regularly now with the liberties taken with phasing in terms of stick effectiveness.
@PlayoffError wrote:I've posted and seen other people post videos of defensive plays that don't quite look right and often the answer is that their stick touched another player's stick or body which prevented them from interacting with the puck. A bit frustrating, but it's consistent so it at least can be understood.
But it's not understood. Many people here see these scenarios play out and insist EA is out to screw them, despite being given an explanation as to why these things happen in today's game.
@PlayoffError wrote:But on offence shot animations can phase through bodies and still get the shot off and players with the puck can just move their stick through defenders at will. The slight loss of possession they get is so short that it effectively doesn't matter in far too many cases. I've advocated before that the time between when a player with the puck's stick passes through a defensive player and when they can interact with the puck again needs to be lengthened somewhat. It's just too short right now IMO.
This I agree with.
