NHL Team
@PlayoffError wrote:My second option would be to allow the shot animation to play out as it does now, but to not allow the stick to make any contact with the puck on the other side. This would at least not allow 'impossible' shots to occur.
People would be here raging with their zoomed-in instant replay clips of shot animations not connecting with pucks, with no understanding of the underlying logic in why that happens. We see this regularly now with the liberties taken with phasing in terms of stick effectiveness.
@PlayoffError wrote:I've posted and seen other people post videos of defensive plays that don't quite look right and often the answer is that their stick touched another player's stick or body which prevented them from interacting with the puck. A bit frustrating, but it's consistent so it at least can be understood.
But it's not understood. Many people here see these scenarios play out and insist EA is out to screw them, despite being given an explanation as to why these things happen in today's game.
@PlayoffError wrote:But on offence shot animations can phase through bodies and still get the shot off and players with the puck can just move their stick through defenders at will. The slight loss of possession they get is so short that it effectively doesn't matter in far too many cases. I've advocated before that the time between when a player with the puck's stick passes through a defensive player and when they can interact with the puck again needs to be lengthened somewhat. It's just too short right now IMO.
This I agree with.
@PlayoffError wrote:
@KidShowtime1867The community not initially understanding something isn't a reason not to do it. It just means that there needs to be more of an effort to educate players on why things happen they way they do. Doing this in a clear and constructive fashion goes a long way.
You're not wrong, but in the face of taking a sweaty HUT or EASHL club loss on a play that was affected by EA having to take liberties with physics, the player(s) will always default to blaming the game and insisting it's broken and needs to be fixed.
EA can explain why things happen until they're blue in the face, but if enough people on social media drum up enough hatred and performative outrage over a design decision that adversely affects their current playstyle or, god forbid, requires additional learning of a new mechanic, it gets patched and reversed.
In today's climate of instant "outrage" and the virality of the hivemind - EA can't make huge changes to the game without fear of affecting the baseline of yearly sales. They're at the mercy of the loudest most entitled population of gamers that's ever existed. (And I don't mean NHL specifically, I'm talking the general population of today's gamers)
That said, even on these forums - you have to handle everyone with little kid gloves or else they cry about being "bullied". They can bully developers about how much their game "sucks" and how much it's "broken" and how they're "never going to buy it ever again" and how they "have never seen hockey played in their life" but the second someone claps back and says "hey maybe you could learn this mechanic a little better" it's all "oh stop abusing me".
My point being, the average user doesn't care about under-the-hood design choices meant to keep the game balanced, with the side-effect of having unrealistic sequences play out. All they see and react to is what plays out. Being on the bad side of an outcome, 9/10 users will insist they are playing 'perfectly' and the "game decided" to give the bounce to their opponent. Then they come here, or twitter, or Reddit to find like-minded folks to generate some 'outrage' in an attempt to get their perceived issue 'fixed'. Anyone who disagrees is a shill, is downvoted, blocked and/or reported to moderators for being 'combative'.
@KidShowtime1867 wrote:
@PlayoffError wrote:
@KidShowtime1867The community not initially understanding something isn't a reason not to do it. It just means that there needs to be more of an effort to educate players on why things happen they way they do. Doing this in a clear and constructive fashion goes a long way.You're not wrong, but in the face of taking a sweaty HUT or EASHL club loss on a play that was affected by EA having to take liberties with physics, the player(s) will always default to blaming the game and insisting it's broken and needs to be fixed.
EA can explain why things happen until they're blue in the face, but if enough people on social media drum up enough hatred and performative outrage over a design decision that adversely affects their current playstyle or, god forbid, requires additional learning of a new mechanic, it gets patched and reversed.
In today's climate of instant "outrage" and the virality of the hivemind - EA can't make huge changes to the game without fear of affecting the baseline of yearly sales. They're at the mercy of the loudest most entitled population of gamers that's ever existed. (And I don't mean NHL specifically, I'm talking the general population of today's gamers)
That said, even on these forums - you have to handle everyone with little kid gloves or else they cry about being "bullied". They can bully developers about how much their game "sucks" and how much it's "broken" and how they're "never going to buy it ever again" and how they "have never seen hockey played in their life" but the second someone claps back and says "hey maybe you could learn this mechanic a little better" it's all "oh stop abusing me".
My point being, the average user doesn't care about under-the-hood design choices meant to keep the game balanced, with the side-effect of having unrealistic sequences play out. All they see and react to is what plays out. Being on the bad side of an outcome, 9/10 users will insist they are playing 'perfectly' and the "game decided" to give the bounce to their opponent. Then they come here, or twitter, or Reddit to find like-minded folks to generate some 'outrage' in an attempt to get their perceived issue 'fixed'. Anyone who disagrees is a shill, is downvoted, blocked and/or reported to moderators for being 'combative'.
What's your solution then? Never make any significant changes to the current game? That will just enrage the people who are convinced that EA just releases the same game with a roster update each year. People who want to be outraged about the game are going to find a reason to do so regardless of what you, I or EA does. They're never going to be satisfied, so it doesn't make sense to allow them to dictate how the game is developed.
EA, and us here on these forums should be making more of an effort to reach the people who can be reached. If someone makes a post complaining that some aspect of the game is 'broken' there needs to be more of an effort to understand what the root of their issue is. Far too often people are jumped on for using the wrong word to describe their problem and the discussion is off the rails before it even begins. If people are given a chance to further explain what they think is wrong then a discussion can be had about why what their seeing is or isn't intended behaviour and from there further discussion about what they might want to see in the future can occur.
Community Manager
@PlayoffError wrote:EA, and us here on these forums should be making more of an effort to reach the people who can be reached. If someone makes a post complaining that some aspect of the game is 'broken' there needs to be more of an effort to understand what the root of their issue is. Far too often people are jumped on for using the wrong word to describe their problem and the discussion is off the rails before it even begins. If people are given a chance to further explain what they think is wrong then a discussion can be had about why what their seeing is or isn't intended behaviour and from there further discussion about what they might want to see in the future can occur.
I very frequently ask for feedback so it can be relayed to the team. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. If someone is claiming the game is broken, or if it's just a rant saying the game is bad with no actual details, chances are good they're not being constructive so that's largely going to be ignored. Those that do provide actual constructive, mature feedback get it taken more seriously and it gets passed on. There have been a lot of good discussions with usable feedback. We've acted on a lot of this, as you can see in the patch notes.
I think part of the problem is that a lot of the criticism here is often times overly simplistic or just insulting the game devs. I mean, when someone posts, "nhl bad make it different u suck", what exactly are Aljo and the game devs supposed to do with that?
I post a lot of my criticism on here, but I generally try to be as detailed as I can with what the issue is and why I think it's occurring. We need more detailed criticism with screenshots and game clips and less "this game bad 0/10" type posts.
@PlayoffError wrote:What's your solution then? Never make any significant changes to the current game?
That would be ridiculous.
@PlayoffError wrote:People who want to be outraged about the game are going to find a reason to do so regardless of what you, I or EA does. They're never going to be satisfied, so it doesn't make sense to allow them to dictate how the game is developed.
I agree, but the current state of social media allows these users to commiserate with hundreds or thousands of others, reinforcing their 'opinions' so much so that they see it as fact. This can generate a "social media backlash" that sales & marketing departments don't want.
@PlayoffError wrote: If someone makes a post complaining that some aspect of the game is 'broken' there needs to be more of an effort to understand what the root of their issue is.
Again, you're not wrong. I'm the #1 proponent of people posting clips rather than walls of text. That is an effort in understanding the root of a user's problem. Furthermore, I used to go to extensive efforts to look frame by frame at issues presented here and that is yet another effort in understanding that 99% of the people here don't do. When I respond with a long-winded breakdown of a clip, that's an effort to make the OP understand. More often than not, however, they're not posting clips to get told how they can get better or how they can get the game to give them the outcome they want more often. They're posting clips to be agreed with, and when I pop into a thread pointing things out that OP may have done better - they're always unwilling to accept it. They just want to be told "you're right, the game is broken in the way you think it is". There's no discourse.
Just like some of us need to do a better job of understanding a user's issue, the user is responsible for communicating those problems clearly. Creating a topic like "this game is unplayable" with the content eluding to how the new hitting controls "suck" gets us nowhere.
@PlayoffError wrote: If people are given a chance to further explain what they think is wrong then a discussion can be had about why what their seeing is or isn't intended behaviour and from there further discussion about what they might want to see in the future can occur.
Users always have the ability to further explain what they mean by providing clips from their console. There is no reason, this day and age, to not provide a game clip of an issue you've experienced if you consider id game breaking. PS5 and XBOX make it stupid-easy to capture gameplay and there are tutorials here on how to do it.
A user coming to the forums to post an encyclopedia's worth of text about an in-game scenario does literally nothing to contribute actual feedback. It also does nothing when that user becomes incredibly defensive when asked to provide a clip. It does nothing when the user denies what is happening in the clip just because it may be pointed out they made a small mistake.
So, I don't agree that people aren't given a real chance to explain their issues. Being held to task over a claim that the game is "broken" is not the same as disallowing them the right to further explain themselves. In fact, it's an opportunity for them to clarify things. It's okay for us to hold each other responsible. If some users are going to take any pushback on their claims as "bullying" - then maybe announcing their opinions on a public forum isn't something they should be doing.
https://youtu.be/o5xUk4ksHN0?si=9QJZVZKt5oi43DR-
Explain this one, this was a longer clip of me standing him up but, I should of recorded the whole sequence but this is the main part I find stupid.
@llamaverox wrote:https://youtu.be/o5xUk4ksHN0?si=9QJZVZKt5oi43DR-
Explain this one, this was a longer clip of me standing him up but, I should of recorded the whole sequence but this is the main part I find stupid.
What's stupid about it? The two of you are jostling for possession and position.
At one point, you're in a perfect position to execute a stick lift but you choose to actively skate away from the situation:
There's a few frames at the beginning of the battle where you've successfully knocked the puck loose but you're continuing to actively skate in the opposite direction, right into your opponent:
Users with the faster twitch-skill will win in these scenarios because they're quicker to recognize when possession has been knocked loose and/or obtained. It's a real skill to have when playing competitively.
The Anaheim player in this scenario is showing a slow response to what's happening whereas the other player is patient and sticking with the puck and gets the better of the loose puck because of the Anaheim player skating away from it.
@KidShowtime1867 wrote:
@llamaverox wrote:https://youtu.be/o5xUk4ksHN0?si=9QJZVZKt5oi43DR-
Explain this one, this was a longer clip of me standing him up but, I should of recorded the whole sequence but this is the main part I find stupid.
What's stupid about it? The two of you are jostling for possession and position.
Users with the faster twitch-skill will win in these scenarios
True. Definitely some wonky stick on body incidental, though.
@llamaverox wrote:
@llamaveroxI have body position I should have the puck. That's what's stupid about it.
Yes, you had body position at one point but chose to continue skating into your opponent. Your opponent reacted to the loose puck slightly sooner than you did but you both reach the loose puck at the exact same time, which is where the jostling begins:
@llamaverox wrote:
@llamaveroxYou also highlight the one point his stick is on the puck and not the 2 seconds before it where mine is on the puck.
During the battle and jostling, your player does not have possession of the puck at all.
@PackBeak wrote:True. Definitely some wonky stick on body incidental, though.
100%. It's not perfect.
@llamaverox wrote:
@KidShowtime1867That's exactly why I don't like posting videos, you highlight what you want to show in screenshots when the whole video is needed for context. I'm done with your post quite frankly.
I'm highlighting parts of a video that you provided. I'm not making anything up. You can take my explanations and re-watch the video to discern my reasoning for yourself.
His stick even phases through my player to give him even the ability to go for that puck.
It's why I want simulation, the game would play so much better if you couldn't just walk through players.
@llamaverox wrote:
@KidShowtime1867You are highlighting what you want to show, not what the video shows
I am showing clips and stills from a video you provided. You are choosing what I'm showing.
@llamaverox wrote: I have body position he walks THROUGH, my body to get his stick on the puck.
At no point does his body phase through yours.
There's a frame or two where your player suffers an animation glitch but it's non-impactful to the overall outcome:
@llamaverox wrote: I should have that puck when his stick is between my legs, I should have it when he's to my right and gets priority over my mcdavid who is standing with proper body position on his right thigh. I should have a puck pick up when he's once again trying to skate through my player
The only moment his stick can be considered between your legs is when you're actively skating away from the puck
@KidShowtime1867I'm actively trying to dislodge the puck with my skates, I am saying his stick phases not his body. He literally shouldn't even be able to have his stick on proper position there. I should already have the puck and be going the other way anyway in that screenshot. We just completely disagree on what that video shows, how are we supposed to agree on the game.
My point is simple, I have body position and his guy picks it up, and keeps it despite being inside mcdavid's body position.
Community Manager
@llamaverox wrote:
@KidShowtime1867I'm actively trying to dislodge the puck with my skates, I am saying his stick phases not his body. He literally shouldn't even be able to have his stick on proper position there. I should already have the puck and be going the other way anyway in that screenshot. We just completely disagree on what that video shows, how are we supposed to agree on the game.
My point is simple, I have body position and his guy picks it up, and keeps it despite being inside mcdavid's body position.
You can't play the puck when the stick passes through a body. If we didn't let this happen, arms would twist in ways that would break them. Sticks would get caught between legs and under arms. This would happen all the time and make for a pretty frustrating experience while your players un-pretzled and got back in the play. You also run the risk of unintended penalties and injuries. I get that clipping isn't realistic. However, it's a necessary evil for an overall better experience.
@llamaverox, @KidShowtime1867 I feel like you guys are just talking past each other.
@llamaveroxis has a point in regards to body position. His player is in a spot where, if the game had 100% physical interaction between sticks and bodies, he should be able to easily get the puck first because his opponent literally has to drag his stick through both legs to get to the puck.
What @KidShowtime1867 is getting at ( and please correct me if I'm wrong ) is that in EA NHL you don't really have the body position you think you do because the physical interactions just aren't there. The other player can just drag his stick through you and be battling for the puck despite your attempt to block him out.
Personally, I think plays like this just look *wrong* and I wish that body position in regards to sticks would matter more. But sticks phasing through body parts is just an aspect of the game we have to deal with for now.
Community ManagerObviously, dragging a stick through a body isn't ideal. You kind of have to suspend your disbelief. A real player would probably be able to move their stick around the opposition and continue making an attempt to pick it up.
@EA_Aljowould something like "scoring chances" be able to be a statistic that is tracked in game? I feel like having more statistics would be nice. Maybe "unblocked" cant be tracked but just shots inside that area.
Just in case its needed, the NHL defines scoring chances as: Scoring chances are unblocked shots from the crease out to the faceoff dots in the circles and up to the tops of those circles.
@llamaverox wrote:https://youtu.be/o5xUk4ksHN0?si=9QJZVZKt5oi43DR-
Explain this one, this was a longer clip of me standing him up but, I should of recorded the whole sequence but this is the main part I find stupid.
I think Showtime's comments on this clip are pretty fair in general, but one thing that stands out more to me than the Anaheim player losing the puck battle is that it seems like the Anaheim player, despite at times being in position to pick up the puck, never even attempts to grab the puck. The Anaheim player even stands over the puck and still doesn't make any kind of play for the puck. That doesn't make much sense to me.
I'd be curious to know the builds the two players were using. What were the defensive/offensive awareness stats? Was either player using no contest? There's a lot we don't know about this clip.
What I will say, not that this sentiment is entirely applicable to this clip, but I simply do not care for x-factors. I don't like the idea that a player can win a scenario in the game because an icon lit up. If we were to get a kind of sim style mode in EASHL, I'd hope such a mode would have zero x-factors. I think it would be awesome if we had a mode where everything was decided based purely on user input and reaction speed.
Oh, to dream.
