EA_Aljo
Community Manager
Community ManagerRe: Any love or changes to Defence players?
What changes would you all make to defense? Besides improving tying up players in front of the net as well as decreasing penalties for stick lifting.
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@EA_Aljo wrote:What changes would you all make to defense? Besides improving tying up players in front of the net as well as decreasing penalties for stick lifting.
- Faster lateral movement while DSS is engaged
- No slowdown while backskating with DSS engaged. I believe right now, you suffer a small speed penalty when initiating DSS which I feel is unrealistic. A player skating backwards shouldn't lose speed by simply changing the placement of their stick. While in DSS, their feet are still moving and there's no change in upper body momentum as there is with a regular poke check so a speed incursion shouldn't be applied.
- Better tools for quickly chipping a puck off the glass without having to engage R1 and upping the risk for delay of game, although the trailer showcased this may actually be resolved.- Ability to execute a high dump that doesn't go the length of the ice (this would be key when considering the new exhaustion engine)
- The ability to tie-up or otherwise inhibit the stick of a moving player. I'm not advocating that a moving player get stuck in a tie-up, however as a d-man, I should be able to limit their stick movement even when their feet are moving and they're in close proximity to me. Additionally, this mechanic shouldn't be limited to just the defensive zone.
- Remove interference penalties from small shoves in front of the net
- A player who gets shoved in front and stumbles should not have their deflection animation suddenly 'snap' them out of the stumble animation. The stumble should finish to completion, giving D-men another tool to stopping Big Tipper.
- We need some smoother (better) animations for skating backwards and controlling a puck, skating backwards while passing a puck and skating backwards while receiving a puck. It feels clunky right now to receive a pass while skating backwards as you need to let a transitionary animation play out before you're able to pass again. But maybe one-touch-passing will resolve this as well.
- I'm concerned the removal of Vision control while controlling the puck will inhibit our ability to maintain vision control while in control of the puck in Powerplay scenarios or other offensive scenarios that involve D-to-D passing.
- EA_Aljo
Thanks. Appreciate those details. I was under the impression that you all want new defensive tools as well as changes to the existing ones. I agree with you on what you're suggesting though.
Perfect list @KidShowtime1867
One thing I want to have is more control of my stick. I’d like the ability to feather stick checks such as hooks, slashes and especially stick lifts.
- @KidShowtime1867 That's exactly what we need. They've added new improvements to offense, they've improved goalies, but there is almost no improvements for defense, except new experience of "pinned" effect so we can fully enjoy it in 24. At least, remove speed penalty from D when DSS is initiated and allow me to shove players staying in front of the net, so no interference penalty is called. Btw, that was already in game, but they decided to took this away from D for unknown reasons.
- EA_Aljo
@Beauts90 wrote:
Perfect list @KidShowtime1867
One thing I want to have is more control of my stick. I’d like the ability to feather stick checks such as hooks, slashes and especially stick lifts.
The ability to feather stick checks, slashes and lifts is interesting. Personally, I'd probably not be too good at this. In the heat of the moment, I'm not confident I'd be able to feather pressing the current button for these controls. If it were tied to a trigger, that would be easier though. Interesting idea. Appreciate the feedback.
@EA_Aljo wrote:What changes would you all make to defense? Besides improving tying up players in front of the net as well as decreasing penalties for stick lifting.
Since you asked. I'm pretty sure I've brought all of these up over the last couple of years, but once again:
- A stick lift that isn't so risky it isn't worth using.
- Poke-checks that reliably dislodge the puck when timed and placed correctly.
- As @KidShowtime1867 mentioned, remove the speed hit when using poke/DSS while face-to-face with the puck carrier.
- The ability to tie up players sticks without needing them to come to a stop.
- The return of incidental contact dislodging the puck. The change made to NHL 23 where the puck-carrier's stick just moves defender's sticks out of the way when they collide is terrible given the lack of other tools we have.
- Vastly increase the time it takes for a player to re-gain control of the puck after their stick phases through other players. Right now the fraction of a second the player takes to re-gain the puck they "lose" by dragging their stick through a defender essentially means they don't lose possession at all.
- Stop allowing players to maintain possession "through" the boards. Especially the ability to quickly spin off the boards while keeping the puck. For example if a player is holding the puck on their left while kissing the glass they shouldn't be able to quickly spin to the right while keeping possession.
- In general, make body position matter. Puck carriers skating right at defenders and coming out the other side smelling like a rose should be the exception, not the norm.
One new feature I'd like to see is some way to swat at the puck or opponent's stick to dislodge the puck instead of using a poke-check. One-on-one and face-to-face with an opponent with the puck all of our existing tools are not nearly as effective as they should be. Stick-lift is too risky, poke check needs to be done at just the right spot and even then doesn't always have the desired effect. Even just getting your body in the way doesn't do much. What's missing in EA NHL is what I'd using IRL hockey, a quick swat at puck exposed right in front of me would knock the puck away AND knock the opponent's stick.
At a ski-high level the main thing that I think would make the game better is to make one-on-one battles more like "real" hockey. It should be hard and take skill to beat a defender one-on-one. In EA's NHL game it's far too easy. I get that the game will always tilt a bit towards offense, but when every play is a "wow" moment, nothing is. Make one-on-one offense harder and encourage more passing plays would make the game so much better IMO.
Part of the reason there's so much concern here about the "exhaust system" is the way EA has encouraged players to play offense for years. Unrealistic puck possession combined with poor defensive tools has created an environment where offense is encouraged to rag around the perimeter in hopes of drawing a defender out of position into a one-on-one battle that is lopsided in the offense's favor. If passive defense is the wrong way to play defense ( and the "exhaust system" is EA saying exactly that ) the way to encourage more aggressive defense is to give defense the edge in those one-on-one battles. Force the offensive team to make passing plays or put the puck on net because they fear giving up the puck. Artificially weakening the defense because they're not running around chasing the puck just encourages the current offensive meta. Now there's no ability to out-wait offensive players ragging the puck on the perimiter.
- @EA_Aljo if you play a decent level of real defense in real hockey, its painfully clear that the game rarely give you the feeling of playing real defense. Ironically the best iteration was nhl 10-12.
Better lateral movement.
Less being stuck in mud.
Some actual animations that help keep a puck onside instead of stretching to get a puck offside.
Some defense specific dekes.
No slowdown while dss.
Fix bugs behind your net trying to shoot a puck around the board.
Less penalties on lift stick.
No tripping while poking a person who isnt moving.
Better collision detection of your stick while controlling the puck around your goalie so you can go through the goalie with stick and puck and lose it bringing it back.
Better poke check logic. Nomore poke that bumps the puck one inch.
Some ways to "hug" the player and drive them to the board....ie light check where you keep contact with the opponent and drive them to the board. Hard to explain but very common play.
Oh...add a imations on defense to use your skates to block passes or dekes. Its crazy how easy it is to slide a puck between a player's legs when its so easy to use your skates to stop it. So I haven't heard one person mention it in this thread and I figure that I should do so in that case to put some at ease. The LT madness with the puck is completely dead at the time of this writing. Eki stated you can no longer ballerina skate which in turn is going to be an improvement to defense when we try to go and bump, check, poke etc.
Please make sure there is a dedicated thread like this for defense when the beta tests come out, because with BG3, Starfield, and Spiderman releasing so close together, I truly have no reason to get a game that's just going to make me frustrated to play.
@EA_AljoAljo, a HUGE nerf to Big Tipper would be a great start. It's because of games I just played that it's a banned perk in some leagues.
Up 3-1 in a game we've been dominating in the 3rd period, here's the first one.
https://i.imgur.com/qPi5NhM.gif
Then a few minutes later, here's the second one for them to tie it up. I like this one because for some reason there's three of our players that can just reach and deflect that weak shot away. Even the Tipper that's covered, but that slow shot somehow becomes a perfect bar down tip. Why is it so difficult for the defensive auto-reach to kick in, but it's a miracle worker for the team with the puck?
https://i.imgur.com/s0wcgpa.gif
And here's our OT game winner by... you guessed it.
https://i.imgur.com/1OPEvg0.gif
Three tip goals in a row is just sad. They had two silver Tippers up front and we had none.I will be curious to know if the x-factor abilites remain the same of maybe they've been tweaked or new ones introduced? Truculence, big tipper and few other of them were already 'banned' in some EASHL leagues because they are considered OP.. Changing the game dynamics in 24 might make a big difference in how you build your player in CHEL, but then again it might not. If ballerina skating really is nerfed / removed, hitting is different and physicality more important, maybe we will see more versatile builds?
Soon see what the test will bring, although as usual *final product may vary* goes without saying.
- @Sgt_Kelso I wouldn't be surprised if, at the very least, we see ones pertaining to the new stuff. Skaters get a faster one touch passes, or maybe shots and hits fill the pressure meter up more than normal. Maybe a goal while in full pressure resets the buff going into the next stoppage. For goalies, something regarding the goalie fatigue or the pressure system being requiring longer time or more actions before the buff. Could also see a goalie sprawling save refills your teams energy. Just some ideas.
It would be cool, if the pressure meter decreased a little for good defensive plays l, or bad passes. Just so it can't just build
- @EA_Aljo How about removing the hitting bubble that is still there according to play testers
PlayoffError made a great post. Basically, everything they said.
Also, how about changes to OFFENCE to that it doesn’t 100% favour offence all the time?
This exhaust engine is TERRIBLE.
Keeping the puck in the zone shouldn’t add to the meter. Sitting at the blue line, ragging against the boards, why should that be rewarded?
How about shots on net, passing, deking defenders. That should add to the fatigue meter. Not simply just holding the puck in the zone.
Also the debuff it applies to the defense is laughable. Just everything it does is laughable and poorly designed. Very cool concept, just as EA always does, terribly poorly executed.
@EA_Aljo wrote:What changes would you all make to defense? Besides improving tying up players in front of the net as well as decreasing penalties for stick lifting.
Reward defensive IQ & positioning when trying to intercept passing lanes, or making a block.
The DSS is totally underutilized. It slows you down, using it to intercept passes will cause you to get scored on more compared to if you were to just stand there.
PLEASE fix "gimme" cross crease goals. Newer players should not be having to learn to use cheap goals.
Goes through defenders in position to break it up.
Odd-man rush or not, you're pretty likely to get scored on by a less skilled player. A lot of own goals in NHL 23 on this play.
There are difficulty levels and division rankings for a reason.
Maybe more goals after a successful deke or successful saucer pass through a defender? Well aimed wrist shot?
For D3-D1 competitive play I would love to be able to play solid defensive hockey. To add to that: I would like to have to score more skillful and creative goals.
@PackBeakThe game does for the most part reward IQ and positioning but you have to remember the game has RNG because of overalls and other variables such as distance, power of the pass. I'm fairly certain Star's fan had it with Ryan Suter after the amount of backdoor passes he let thru in the playoffs.
Defending in all sports will forever be harder because it's more of a read and react and sometimes guess. Even when you know a certain thing is gonna happen it can still get done.
I mean just look here at the times a team was decent in defense and still the pass gets thru.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypDRUBApLtU
Solid defense can be played it just requires a full team of humans doing that. Now when AI is involved it's just a bunch of praying, but the AI isn't supposed to be a huge factor.
I do think they ruined the DSS in the way of nerfing the speed of someone using it. The biggest problem was skating and leaving the stick out had close to no effect on slowing the player down. That part should be hindered speed wise. Now if a player is in their glide especially backskating then the DSS shouldn't be slowing them down as it's a controlled state.- @KlariskraysNHL
"I'm fairly certain Star's fan had it with Ryan Suter after the amount of backdoor passes he let thru in the playoffs."
Thought I was the only one caring, but apparently not.
Go stars.
Good defence is art! Not sure where you're going with this tbh.
Of course for the most part the game rewards IQ and positioning, but if I were comparing it to 23 or 22, though, it's only become more frustrating for everyone who plays defence.
Defending in all sports will forever be harder because it's more of a read and react and sometimes guess. Even when you know a certain thing is gonna happen it can still get done.This is the last thing they should be trying to make "sim" style.
I do think they ruined the DSS in the way of nerfing the speed of someone using it. The biggest problem was skating and leaving the stick out had close to no effect on slowing the player down. That part should be hindered speed wise. Now if a player is in their glide especially backskating then the DSS shouldn't be slowing them down as it's a controlled state.
If we were talking arcade/sim, the slow from holding your stick out is also awful.
The thing was - it was making you faster when you did. If it was a smaller/negligible slow I wouldn't mind.
Using the DSS hinders and takes you out of position more often than it helps.
It's also tuned to where when you have the puck you can get hit with a poke 4-5 times around the boards and never even miss a step.I've been saying maybe turn down poke strength, and have more puck battles on these plays.
I'm guessing it is the way it is, right now, because they want the game to be high tempo. Youngsters wanting continuous, fast paced gameplay.
I don't know.
I personally love good defence, or a good puck battle.
- @PackBeak Faster and less sloppy play also looks better for esports. I say it countless times each year but offense must always trump defense. People want to be the scoring hero more than the defensive stud so they lean in favor of offense. I play a bunch of goalie and defense. I don't like what they have done to goalies but they want them WOW factors by making a goalie look silly. The fatigue system on a goalie is a joke to me. The goalies in the NHL are workhorses. Desperation saves should only be happening because of poor positioning and maybe a huge scramble in front with multiple shots in a 5 second duration.
If anything the skill gap of a great defender compared to an average defender is huge because of the changes even if they are underutilized. My biggest gripe is how good the Puck Moving Dman is at defense. They should be terrible imo and the Defensive Dman should be that rock stopping majority of crosses and such. But nah they like the flashy offense of the Puck moving dman so they give them more than adequate defense too. - @KlariskraysNHL The pursuit of artificially forced "wow moments" is one of the reasons the game has become harder and harder to enjoy over the last few years.
There's the obvious problem that "when everyone's super no one is". When a "wow moment" happens multiple times a game it ceases to impress anyone. They become just another play. In the worst case scenario they become part of the meta and lose their impact entirely. Part of the reason the Michigan is exciting IRL is because of how rare it is ( and at this point it's lost a lot of its mystique ). If it's happening every other game it's no longer exciting. For my club "wow moments" are when we set up a great passing play or make a great read on defense. With how lopsided things have become in favor of the offense, one man shows are no longer impressive, they're the norm.
Making offense easier and easier while nerfing defense and crippling goalies has lead to another problem over the last couple of years. More and more close games feel like they're decided by wonky game mechanics than by the skill of the teams playing. And I'm not talking about the game picking a winner. I mean poke checks that don't move the puck, goalies letting in goals from terrible angles that should never be dangerous, passes going through multiple defenders waiting for it, etc. Sure there are lots of games where the skill level is lopsided and in those cases the better team usually wins, but when the skill levels are even it feels like more games are decided by broken mechanics rather than skill. It's hard to be satisfied with a win when it seems undeserved. Well said
- @PlayoffError Perfectly said.
Another problem to this, like you said ''when everyone's super no one is'', there's no backtraking anymore. You can make the gameplay easier the next year by tuning up a few abilities but you can't really ever make them any harder to execute again. We just hit a new high peak with all the one touch skills which are never going back again.
Everything will be so overly automated that actual skills to play hockey won't even be a requirement anymore. The only difference will be the hockey IQ.
When passing doesnt require any aiming anymore, dekes are done by a simple button push, reverse hit become common as if it's something that happens all the time, hip checks on one touch but normal big hit need to be set up and charged? This is so upside down. It's like playing a shooter with 1000% aim assist, eww
This is kinda upsetting. Of course all the kids and the one that never play the game/hockey are going to be happy with these changes and surely others too because they can finally look like that guy that perfected his skills for the last 10 years in the game but...I don't see how this make the game funnier when you don't have that feelling of accomplishing something cool/great plays by using/needing any particular skills anymore. - @Tigidooh There is still a difference when everyone is super. It means those that react and think faster are more likely gonna dominate. You give the average player the same team as a sweat and the game will be a complete dismantling. Everyone is capable of using the skills given to them in the game. But if you don't know when and how properly that sets them apart. Hockey IQ is the most important skill.
I'm happy with the change and let me check..... I have 13days 3hrs 11min of time put into the game. Just play 6s humans it's where the real competition exists anyway.
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