Marcel Kiefer comparison ABS on/off
Here the link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NWRxcJ0iUek&feature=youtu.be
Forum Discussion
All good man, just want to have a discussion. Yeah, totally agree on the "actual" elitist where they belittle / flock people who uses assists. And for the record, I'm not saying that assists or ABS is bad, it's essential to make more people to play the game comfortably. Most of the assists is pretty balanced, they all have their trade offs pretty fair I think, with the exception of Pit Assist, where in some tracks you can just floor it to the pitlane and not have a penalty lol, but it's not the one that I want to talk about.
The other assists, such as TC or auto gears have a fair trade off in pace in my opinion, both TC and Gearbox have a +0.7 sec trade off based on Jarno's video in 21. Don't know about 23 but I assume it's the same. ABS on the other hand, has really small trade off in pace with only +0.1 sec based on Jarno's video, and with Marcel's new video it seems like it's still very powerful. Moreover, TT leaderboards confirm this with many players use ABS in TT leaderboards.
I mean, I get it's just a simcade, but is it wrong with wanting to balance assists out for more competitiveness? With how you can exploit the ABS, not doing anything to it just makes it more harm than good imho. The narratives where using ABS or any kind of assists can make you faster, can lead to one of the reason why so many people mock people who uses assists in the first place, cause they use that excuse so it makes them feel better. Not gonna lie, sometimes in the heat of the moment I felt that too.
@Marvlint End of the day whether its popular or not elite players of any game are the minority, and its unwise to change any gaming experience in favour solely of the minority.
Heck i play Destiny 2 and i'm aware thats not everyones cup of tea but the amount of changes they've made over the years for the hardcore players because they've been so vocal on twitch or youtube has changed the experience for the worse ultimately killing the player base.
The same will happen with F1 if they kill assists whether thats popular or not its true.
The only thing they can do is to make assist/no assist only lobbies.
Scar isn't wrong in what he's saying its just not popular with the hardcore players because they always hunger for more challenge, but i guess thats why leagues exist ay.
Heck i play Destiny 2 and i'm aware thats not everyones cup of tea but the amount of changes they've made over the years for the hardcore players because they've been so vocal on twitch or youtube has changed the experience for the worse ultimately killing the player base.
The same will happen with F1 if they kill assists whether thats popular or not its true.
The only thing they can do is to make assist/no assist only lobbies.
Scar isn't wrong in what he's saying its just not popular with the hardcore players because they always hunger for more challenge, but i guess thats why leagues exist ay.
- @matty0blobber Awe man. About a year or so ago I had a look at Destiny 2 on ps Store. Just looking at the content made my brain explode. Then I watched a video on the game by the Act Man and I had no idea what I saw in ps store was nothing compared to the game menus
@matty0blobber wrote:
@MarvlintEnd of the day whether its popular or not elite players of any game are the minority, and its unwise to change any gaming experience in favour solely of the minority.
Heck i play Destiny 2 and i'm aware thats not everyones cup of tea but the amount of changes they've made over the years for the hardcore players because they've been so vocal on twitch or youtube has changed the experience for the worse ultimately killing the player base.
The same will happen with F1 if they kill assists whether thats popular or not its true.
The only thing they can do is to make assist/no assist only lobbies.
Scar isn't wrong in what he's saying its just not popular with the hardcore players because they always hunger for more challenge, but i guess thats why leagues exist ay.@matty0blobber Yeah, balancing the ABS is tricky for sure, as it is already strong irl. The easiest solution is to make a no assists lobby or league you may say, but the sad reality is it's not popular like I said in the previous reply. My point is by nerfing the ABS to make it more consistent in the trade off in pace like the other assists, it will hopefully motivate people to not use it and improve their driving.
About what you said with the track limits on Qatar and also @ScarDuck14 about setups, yes I agree and it's has a similar issues on why people do it on ABS. People will abuse the heck out of it because it is faster and easier. Both of them should be fixed and resolved in some way, but we're mainly talking about ABS here. One at a time.
I understand that it's probably not a priority issue right now considering the current state of the game, but even the minority is also the one who are playing the game a lot every year, so raising this issue is not a bad thing imo. I just hope that Codemasters or EA could do something about this, even just a slight nerf is fine.
It's clear most users prefer to use some level of assists so why would/should the developer go against what the majority of their customer want?
Just to appease a minority? That makes absolutely no sense for a business.
If the time at a top of a leaderboards is what gives you satisfaction then turn ABS on. If satisfaction of driving without assists is what you want then do that. But why the need to moan about it either way?
- @VL_RYAN See if I was interested in the top of the time trial board. That would mean I’m close to it. If I wasn’t using assists. And let’s say I’m top 20. Id count how many above that were. Let’s say 10 were. Id move myself up 10 places. Easy. Even if you are top off the leaderboard. There’s no price so fame to be gained so it doesn’t matter to me where I or anyone else is on it… I know how good I am and that’s all that matters
- @ScarDuck14 I'm not sure he's on about leaderboards though honestly, i do agree there needs to be more incentive to turn assists off in the long run other than feeling good about yourself or someone calling us bad for using them.
I personally see no incentive to turning them off which goes some way to prove the appeal isn't there,but i do think they should just stop you from crashing/spinning only but right now they're helping people in the speed department. How they do that i have no clue though haha. This comparison with ABS on/off is popping out every year and i think it's a useless comparison. If you are fast, you are fast with assists or without them. If you can't see the proper racing line, the proper braking points so you won't compromise your exit, no assist will make you faster! In F1 22 i did a little test in Silverstone to see why a friend of mine is really slow, like 2-3 seconds in quali compared to me (he is using assists and he used to be at least as fast as me) and in 3 laps with TC full, automatic gearbox, abs on i was already at 0.200 behind my best time, so clearly that 2-3 seconds are not coming from using assists. And despite the fact i am not using ABS or TC, i am not even close to the top in time trial and i know it's because i am not exploting the game at maximum. If someone is beating me using assists i won't and i can't get mad because i know he was faster than me without assists too, just because he needed 2 weeks to get used to no abs or TC off or manual gearbox doesn't mean i am faster because in 2 weeks i will be behind him again.
@Hempyjr wrote:This comparison with ABS on/off is popping out every year and i think it's a useless comparison. If you are fast, you are fast with assists or without them. If you can't see the proper racing line, the proper braking points so you won't compromise your exit, no assist will make you faster! In F1 22 i did a little test in Silverstone to see why a friend of mine is really slow, like 2-3 seconds in quali compared to me (he is using assists and he used to be at least as fast as me) and in 3 laps with TC full, automatic gearbox, abs on i was already at 0.200 behind my best time, so clearly that 2-3 seconds are not coming from using assists. And despite the fact i am not using ABS or TC, i am not even close to the top in time trial and i know it's because i am not exploting the game at maximum. If someone is beating me using assists i won't and i can't get mad because i know he was faster than me without assists too, just because he needed 2 weeks to get used to no abs or TC off or manual gearbox doesn't mean i am faster because in 2 weeks i will be behind him again.
Yeah, I'm aware that when someone learned to drive without assists, their pace will be similar or even faster. In my own experiences, I found significant improvement by learning no TC and manual, I think about a second faster. The ABS however, I found not much of a difference between my pace. The benefit is so small, and also now I have added something more to worry about: lockups. This might be different from people to people of course, I have no idea on how you only got 0.2 sec difference even though you use almost full assists.
That is why I also use Jarno's video as a references, where he found that TC and Auto have a significant trade off by roughly 0.7 sec each, while ABS he found similar in pace by just 0.1 sec. Also on Marcel's video he said roughly the same.
Some people might interpret me wrong, I don't really mind that people drive faster than me using assists. It's just that it's a shame that some people just want an easy way out by not learning and improve their driving, even though I'm sure they can but decided not to because basically it's not worth the time as the payoff is not really worth it.
- @Marvlint I don't have any idea either how i got only 0.2 difference. Tho i guess it's because i am not an elite driver to squeeze everything out from the car and track and therefore my driving style is pretty constant at some level. That's why i said that who is fast with assists will be fast without them too. When you are esports driver and you extract almost everything from car and track (most of them are pretty close in terms of pace) you can the see the time difference between automatic gearbox and manual, for the rest of us doesn't matter who uses assists and who not. Some people like my friend doesn't have time and mood to learn how to play without assists, he just wants to start the game and enjoy it, me on the other side, i can't see myself driving again with all those assists 🙂
@HempyjrCan you suggest the best way or order to slowly come off the assists or remember how you did it?
I imagine its not wise or enjoyable to turn them all off straight away aha.- @matty0blobber Turning them all off straight away definetly not. One at a time and after a week or two after you are confortable with manual gearbox for example, you can try turning off ABS and then the same story with TC 🙂 Which one will be the hardest to get used too i don't know, it's different for everybody, for me it was the manual gearbox, forgeting to upshift after the corner or shifting in the wrong gear, but in time you get used to and do it automatically. But the best way is to not flashback if you play offline, if you use flashback you will do the same mistakes and will take longer to get used to, when you know you have only 1 chance to get it done you will try harder 🙂
@matty0blobber wrote:@HempyjrCan you suggest the best way or order to slowly come off the assists or remember how you did it?
I imagine its not wise or enjoyable to turn them all off straight away aha.My example of getting rid of assist was as follows: TC med, Auto, Line (since F1 2010, i.e. since the beginning) ➡️ TC off (since ~ F1 2018?) ➡️Auto off (since ~F1 2019?) ➡️Line off (since F1 2021?)
@matty0blobber wrote:@HempyjrCan you suggest the best way or order to slowly come off the assists or remember how you did it?
I imagine its not wise or enjoyable to turn them all off straight away aha.I'm in the process of doing this now. I only started playing with F1 22, used assists always.
For F1 23,I'm slowly going off of assists. I found ABS off first was the easiest to learn. Then TC. I went from full to off, skipping medium. I haven't done manual gear shifting yet but it's last on my list.
ABS was easy and quick for me. I'm getting solid at TC off but I couldn't do a 100% race without messing up once or twice yet. To learn, I used Time Trial and flashbacks. If you're struggling in a specific turn, just do it over and over and over using flashbacks. It eventually gets easier. Then, when you can do a lap usually with no spin outs, then just do that lap over she over, trying to beat your time.
They should add more stuff in f1 world that slowly removes assists, like track mastery removes the racing line, they could have a series that gradually removes tc and abs etc over the course of a few races at the same track.
This would encourage people to try more, rewards would have to be beefy though to further encourage people to try.
I race with...
- manual gears, found that easy to adjust to within a week.
- traction control last year I had on medium as it was too twitchy on off. This year I've switched off and it's manageable.
I'm currently in the process of turning the manual brakes off and finding it a challenge.
I'm guessing you need to adjust the car setups and brake bias etc as its definetly harder to get used to than it was when I turned other assists off.
Racing line I'm also in the process of trying to turn off. I think they could have a better system in the game to help with this. Racing line just in corners, then they should have something else between that and off I feel.
I also decided to wean myself off of assists this year. I always played with TC on medium and auto gears (I never liked the "feel" of ABS so I never used it). This year I'm only going to use auto gears!
Going well so far, it's a huge learning curve for me but I'll keep trying it.
- @Nylink Good on you for sticking with it. ABS is the hardest to get used to for me, so it helps that you've never used it.
On 22, I used medium TC, ABS and auto gears. But I switched the racing line off eventually and moved to cockpit cam.
This year, it's all off. I'm definitely slower at the moment but it's a far more immersive and exciting way to play the game. I'm not going to win any races but I've picked up a couple of podiums in ranked.
@Pepski wrote:
@NylinkGood on you for sticking with it. ABS is the hardest to get used to for me, so it helps that you've never used it.
On 22, I used medium TC, ABS and auto gears. But I switched the racing line off eventually and moved to cockpit cam.
This year, it's all off. I'm definitely slower at the moment but it's a far more immersive and exciting way to play the game. I'm not going to win any races but I've picked up a couple of podiums in ranked.It will come, trust me. 😉
