So I follow a seemingly popular setup creator in the f1 community and noticed that on all but maybe four circuits he has full RR on camber. As someone who has gone to great lengths to try and understand how camber works in sim racing, it... annoys me how meta this specific setting is to the F1 games. My annoyance has reached a fever point with this year's game because I make a point to add front camber on any circuit that has mid-high speed prolonged corners (think Catalunya, Interlagos or Spa) in order to combat understeer. Logic being that the tire leans more in those corners which should equal more grip. More grip = higher cornering speed so I'm not getting swamped by the AI on exit. The thing is, perhaps just given my personal driving style, this has been an effective tactic. Idk if it makes me faster per se, but the car definitely feels more planted thru said corners. I mentioned this to said setup maker, whose response was essentially just "It's the meta, but here are other ways to combat your issue." And then proceeded to give me other settings that I had already adjusted to taste. No, camber shouldn't be a set-n-forget setting, period.I'd understand minimizing camber if you were suffering from tire wear issues or just really wanted to maximize traction on corner exit, or if the game properly simulated the typical OMI temperatures then there'd be actual thought put into this part of the setup. My question is why has RR on camber been so meta for so long and does anyone else ever deviate off of it? Are my alterations actually working or is it a placebo from forcing myself to apply actual sim philosophies to F1's setup physics and it's actually making me slower?

There was a similar discussion here that should interest you. I'll copy and paste my main points there, but basically the physics are simplified and exploitable. I took OP as feeling frustrated by the "meta" scene still being all about those extreme LLRR or RRLL whatever setups.What I was teasing at is pretty much what you covered. Setups work, adjustments to suspension geometry (and other parameters) have an impact on how the car handles.The meta will hardly change though. In the sense that we will continue to see these extreme values in esports and youtube setups all around. That's due to the fact that the game physics are still very exploitable.We've made strides in the right direction, with a more realistic tyre model, improvements to the aerodynamic systems, collisions and hitboxes, etc. But the simulation is still fragile and people can get away with setups that live on a knife-edge in a handling model that still accommodates wheel and controller users with relatively little separation between them. Plug a pad on your PC and launch iRacing, set a funky camber value and no toe in in a high powered RWD car and try to put a competitive lap time around the track.F1 is a simcade. There's no demerit in it, actually. It is trying to reproduce the feeling we fans get from watching those cars going round and round apparent (but deceiving!) ease. Those cars look planted and mighty on the telly, so the game wants the majority of its player base too feel capable and mighty as Max and Lewis.It's like on FIFA, how you need to go out of your way to fumble a cross. Press the button, fill the bar moderately and the ball will simply fly towards the target with considerable precision. We see players hitting those crosses left and right on the Premier League, so that's what the game is aiming for. Nevermind if you cannot even hit the box on a corner come Sunday match with your friends; the game will cater to a simplified simulation of physics, turning the whole kicking technique in black magic at a press of a button, so that anyone can hit a "simple" cross just like Salah or De Bruyne.In summation, extreme setups (that the game doesn't even allow to be that extreme) will always be relatively accessible. However, most people will be missing out on the blessings of having a more balanced or thoughtful setups, and how it can help them put the power down when fumbling their way out of La Source, because the "meta" makes it look like anything but LLRR or RRLL just makes for a backmarker performance.

@AquaOrenjiWas not always RRLL it’s been RLLL in previous games. If you feel better increasing camber then increase it. The Meta setups are for top 1% And TTers. And multiplayer sweats.Set the car up how it feels for you. I only play single player so have nothing to prove and on long races I prefer setups that make me dance. So sometimes I increase camber sometimes I decrease. On a long race last thing I want is a twitchy low grip car.

@mariohomoh I was hoping you'd show up before I even started composing the post. Thank you again, good sir.It just grinds my gears (heh) that I can devote six days of the week to setup building on iracing or ACC for one day's worth of actual racing but setups are almost plug n' play on F1. Building setups in the old games that had max practice programs and made running all three practices actually worthwhile was more fun than the races themselves at times. Nowadays I just mouth-breathe while I run somebody else's setup and can barely be bothered to deviate for my own personal gain. Then I actually went and did it and was reminded of those good ol' days.I just wish there was some more character to the esport setups instead of one guy feeling like the next guy's. But I know they're never going to move off their 5-minute copy/paste setups until the physics model gives them reason to. Which in itself is wild given how different the driving model is this year. The numbers on each end of the slider may have changed but the position of the little dot on the slider itself has remained stationary.Gonna start playing with the comically low tire pressures next--not that I have to really give consideration to any sort of interplay with the rest of the setup, pfft.

@AquaOrenji Wow, huge respect for that diversity effort! I'm planning on doing just two races, a drow and a half-orc or dragonborn, and I'm anticipating those two taking dozens of hours of my playtime already(😉)

@mariohomoh Was gunna just tag you and let you answer… Wish I had now makes my answer look pathetic 😂

Why is suspension geometry so META?

20 Replies

ScarDuck14
Legend
2 years ago
@AquaOrenjiWas not always RRLL it’s been RLLL in previous games. If you feel better increasing camber then increase it. The Meta setups are for top 1% And TTers. And multiplayer sweats.

Set the car up how it feels for you. I only play single player so have nothing to prove and on long races I prefer setups that make me dance. So sometimes I increase camber sometimes I decrease. On a long race last thing I want is a twitchy low grip car.
mariohomoh
Hero (Retired)
2 years ago
There was a similar discussion here that should interest you. I'll copy and paste my main points there, but basically the physics are simplified and exploitable.
I took OP as feeling frustrated by the "meta" scene still being all about those extreme LLRR or RRLL whatever setups.
What I was teasing at is pretty much what you covered. Setups work, adjustments to suspension geometry (and other parameters) have an impact on how the car handles.
The meta will hardly change though. In the sense that we will continue to see these extreme values in esports and youtube setups all around. That's due to the fact that the game physics are still very exploitable.
We've made strides in the right direction, with a more realistic tyre model, improvements to the aerodynamic systems, collisions and hitboxes, etc. But the simulation is still fragile and people can get away with setups that live on a knife-edge in a handling model that still accommodates wheel and controller users with relatively little separation between them. Plug a pad on your PC and launch iRacing, set a funky camber value and no toe in in a high powered RWD car and try to put a competitive lap time around the track.
F1 is a simcade. There's no demerit in it, actually. It is trying to reproduce the feeling we fans get from watching those cars going round and round apparent (but deceiving!) ease. Those cars look planted and mighty on the telly, so the game wants the majority of its player base too feel capable and mighty as Max and Lewis.
It's like on FIFA, how you need to go out of your way to fumble a cross. Press the button, fill the bar moderately and the ball will simply fly towards the target with considerable precision. We see players hitting those crosses left and right on the Premier League, so that's what the game is aiming for. Nevermind if you cannot even hit the box on a corner come Sunday match with your friends; the game will cater to a simplified simulation of physics, turning the whole kicking technique in black magic at a press of a button, so that anyone can hit a "simple" cross just like Salah or De Bruyne.
In summation, extreme setups (that the game doesn't even allow to be that extreme) will always be relatively accessible. However, most people will be missing out on the blessings of having a more balanced or thoughtful setups, and how it can help them put the power down when fumbling their way out of La Source, because the "meta" makes it look like anything but LLRR or RRLL just makes for a backmarker performance.
ScarDuck14
Legend
2 years ago
@mariohomoh Was gunna just tag you and let you answer… Wish I had now makes my answer look pathetic 😂
mariohomoh
Hero (Retired)
2 years ago
@ScarDuck14 Nah, you're spot on. "Why many words when few do" 😂

You touch on all the key points:
1) The meta needs to catch up from time to time
2) the meta doesn't cater for realism or driveability, just "high scores"
3) Takes a certain type of skillset to take the meta far
4) What good is it for you if you cannot be consistent with it? Making 3 laps 3-4% slower will always beat making 1 fast lap and crashing out on the other 2.
ScarDuck14
Legend
2 years ago
@mariohomoh Yup.., Was just stroking your ego 😝
AquaOrenji
2 years ago
@mariohomoh I was hoping you'd show up before I even started composing the post. Thank you again, good sir.

It just grinds my gears (heh) that I can devote six days of the week to setup building on iracing or ACC for one day's worth of actual racing but setups are almost plug n' play on F1. Building setups in the old games that had max practice programs and made running all three practices actually worthwhile was more fun than the races themselves at times. Nowadays I just mouth-breathe while I run somebody else's setup and can barely be bothered to deviate for my own personal gain. Then I actually went and did it and was reminded of those good ol' days.

I just wish there was some more character to the esport setups instead of one guy feeling like the next guy's. But I know they're never going to move off their 5-minute copy/paste setups until the physics model gives them reason to. Which in itself is wild given how different the driving model is this year. The numbers on each end of the slider may have changed but the position of the little dot on the slider itself has remained stationary.

Gonna start playing with the comically low tire pressures next--not that I have to really give consideration to any sort of interplay with the rest of the setup, pfft.
mariohomoh
Hero (Retired)
2 years ago
@AquaOrenji You got it right, pal.
Just keep an eye on the frustration. Channel your energy and limited free time accordingly to the rewards you get. No sense spending hours on this or that game if you're not getting your time (and money) worth out of it.

Nevertheless, F1 23 is still miles ahead in enjoyment when it comes to actually driving these cars ✌🏼
AquaOrenji
2 years ago
Yea luckily Baldur's Gate 3 has taken the role of first driver in terms of fun factor. I'm struggling to get one race done per day opposed to early on when I was doing 2-3 races per day through gritted teeth. The AI and the game in general have gotten better and more compelling, which is the only reason I even bother, but my overall interest has certainly waned. Hopefully this mini-revelation about non-meta setups will reignite me.
@mariohomoh wrote:
@AquaOrenjiYou got it right, pal.
Just keep an eye on the frustration. Channel your energy and limited free time accordingly to the rewards you get. No sense spending hours on this or that game if you're not getting your time (and money) worth out of it.

Nevertheless, F1 23 is still miles ahead in enjoyment when it comes to actually driving these cars ✌🏼
mariohomoh
Hero (Retired)
2 years ago
@AquaOrenji Wow, huge respect for that diversity effort! I'm planning on doing just two races, a drow and a half-orc or dragonborn, and I'm anticipating those two taking dozens of hours of my playtime already

(😉)
WigglyStyle
2 years ago
Sometimes logic becomes victim of logic.
Lots of good tips and info from the other posts above. But also keep in mind that every setup scale isn’t necessarily a balanced scale.

For example, the options for camber can (might) be determined by regulations or creative choice. Meaning, all the way to the left can be ’Awful’ to all the way right being just ’Bad’. This would force the ’meta’ to allways pick all the way right.

But setups is always a balancing act of pro’s and con’s between each parts and how they impact each other. Meaning the pros of a more agressive camber might not be worth it’s negatives, if they can instead be balanced with a softer/harder ARB, if that would produce similar benefits but less negatives.

Im not saying current setup system is good or bad. Just saying Logic and Car Setups often find themselves in heated arguments/war (in every game/sim) and sometimes there will always be a maxed out/minimum ’meta’. Like the irl pirelli tyre pressure struggles (2021?) Every team always used minimum tyre pressures because the grip gain was so great (compared to ex. stability loss) And then everyone was crying and surprised when everyone tyres flew of or punctured in Silverstone and in Baku —>forcing pirelli to raise minimum allowed tyre pressures.