David Greco's Handling, Driving and Setup Q&A (?)

Meza994
3 years ago
@ajobling1983 Very interesting.. Intentionally getting rid of the porpoising ingame.. Hurts every realism lover haha but its understandable for the casuals and AI.. Still want it in the next game should it remain in F1, very essential part of the setup work and will ruin the laptimes when you can go high downforce in Silverstone when they are forced to go low downforce IRL (low downforce is slower laptimes).. Soo maybe something they should think of to add for 2023 (in said case) with a option to turn it off?

More tyre load details sounds very interesting but i still think they have gone for a wrong balance at minimal loads.. Too much front grip in those loads IMO making the car less stable in traction zones (happy to step out)

Setup just as i suspected no more downforce packages which sadly means likely less opportunity to mod the game to realistic results ☹️
Nuvolarix
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@ajobling1983 wrote:
Alex Gillon did a small interview with him if your interested.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L7jwRa1oVFo

quite interesting 🤔
Thank you very interesting 🙂
itsMZ90
3 years ago
Hi guys,
do you have some information about the center of gravity and the center of pressure position of the car? Is there a fixed aerodynamic balance (difference between front and rear wing) able to move the CoP in the CoG? This will lead to a “neutral” behaviour of the car and could be the starting point for creating each own setup.

thanks!
ActuallyImJulie
3 years ago
@itsMZ90 The peak downforce value for the front of the floor is 1.3449, and 1.5085 for the rear, so there is a natural bias for the rear. The wings are a similar story, the front at 0.14, rear 0.16. So it seems there's should be about 12-14% more downforce toward the rear of the car at equal wing settings, though without actual telemetry I can't confirm it.

I assume center of gravity is the same as center of mass in this context? In any case, COMZ has a value anywhere from 0.09 to 0.108 which MIGHT be directly translated to 9% - 10.8% rearwards bias. A higher number is more rearwards, but I can't say whether it's an actual value, or an arbitrary value. It does seem to line up with the aerodynamic distribution though.

So... Theoretically, assuming it's that simple, Ferrari with the front wing a few clicks higher than the rear should be pretty centered, as far as I can tell.

But on top of that, the tires have a natural rearward bias, to the tune of about 3%. Rear tires do tend to wear out quicker though, so it's an important consideration for race setups. By the time you're switching tires, the balance has probably shifted to only 1.5-2% rear bias.

Hope that helps in some way.
Mikulitsi
3 years ago

But on top of that, the tires have a natural rearward bias, to the tune of about 3%. Rear tires do tend to wear out quicker though, so it's an important consideration for race setups. By the time you're switching tires, the balance has probably shifted to only 1.5-2% rear bias.

Hope that helps in some way.
@ActuallyImJulie Wait how'd you get this from the files? What row in the files says this 3% rear bias on the tyres alone?
ActuallyImJulie
3 years ago
@Mikulitsi Well, there's no specific line that says there's a rearward bias, but there are lateral and longitudinal grip values based on tire load. They are about 3% higher at the rear.
DavidG53
3 years ago
@ActuallyImJulie also for the Alpine case, it would be a distribution of 47.5% front, 52.5% rear
ActuallyImJulie
3 years ago
@DavidG53 Thank you, I get the calculation now. Great about the axle too, I can guess a lot from the files, but they can't tell me everything. Thanks for taking time on the forums to clear it up.
Meza994
3 years ago
@DavidG53 Great to see you back and not abandoning us for too many stupid questions and comments😝 but i got another stupid question, not sure if that was ever commented on by you - too many pages to go through haha..

Anyway as i tried to modify the game to find more realistic values to match the behaviour of tyres etc from real life - like Baku tyres only go between 70 and 80° in quali while in Jeddah easily 105° and more and in the race rear tyres up to 120°.. but while dumping a lot of time i found out this weekend that the carcas temps dont affect the surface temperature so if you got good carcas temps your surface temps can still cool out very easily..

Was this intentional or why is that? Its the same for brakes too but thats far less of a problem as brakes are way higher temps anyway but overheating carcas temps would pose another challenge when they cause your surface temps to get more problematic aswell! But with the way i tried to go about it it was totally possible to avoid big problems even for less advanced players!

Would love to hear about it 🙂
Blackbird90
3 years ago
@Meza994 wrote:
like Baku tyres only go between 70 and 80° in quali while in Jeddah easily 105° and more and in the race rear tyres up to 120°
I'm curious how you would know these values?
DavidG53
3 years ago
@Meza994 the way the surface tyres are setup, are too heavily influenced by sliding and not by load, reason why they cool down too much.

It is however intentional, or better, is one less variable to take into consideration.

Another thing to take in consideration is that the ambient temps don't do much and don't change much either.

The brakes influence the carcass temps, but you need a high value for that, and, without a choice of brake duct, I don't want it to be too much of a factor.
Meza994
3 years ago
@DavidG53Yeah ok thought as much, thanks for letting me know and yes load dependant heating is definitely something that was going through my head haha
And yeah all those variable were things i would like to be implemented, brake duct size and taping - fairly easy done though just increase the linear heat coef.. And so on but ou know all these yourself, i would just love proper tyre and heat management via setup and driving style but i know you got sooo many things to do and so little time sadly ☹️ just hoping for the best..
@Blackbird90simply by watching onboards of specific cars, especially when Norris uses a visor cam its sometimes even visable in daylight what his carcas temps are (on the steering wheel) and on the Alfa Romeo its even showing a color indication of the surface temps likely going from ~50-120 or something like that its six different colors or so.. And the general data from those makes quite a lot of sense except for qualifying in Bahrain when Bottas was "heating" his tyres up to something like 70° on C3s which should have a optimal working starting around 100° but except for that its showing even more gentle loss in performance than currently in the game and a more stepped approach like it was in 2018 i think..
So:
C5: 90°
C4: 95°
C3: 100°
C2: 105°
C1: 110°
Just a rough estimation with only a "small" loss in performance being further off of this so 80° on C5 is not much slower maybe 2% less grip, same for overheating by 10° like Norris was running 120° and over on his C2 tyres in Jeddah which would mean a very oversteery car if it was as extreme grip loss as currently in the game..
Also by my testing this would require the tyres to have a very similar or even equal heating, so a C5 heats up the same way a C1 does but on a track like Silverstone the C1 will just about reach his optimum working range while the C5 is already overheating - which makes sense considering how softer tyres are supposed to be better in cold conditions - simply because they dont need as much heat to work, yes this is currently also the way in the game but without the correct carcas temperatures, currently the difference in tyres is not what temps they need but how fast they get hot, small but important difference when we ever wanna get proper brake heating on the carcas :P
DavidG53
3 years ago
@Meza994 Also remember the AI only use a simplified temp model for heating up from blanket temps, but then stay at optimal temp all the time.

You would need to balance that somehow the player can stay at the optimal temp all the time with every compound, and not within 2% less grip.. this is a guaranteed disadvantage towards AI.

I thought about it, and would make definitely more interesting the choice of the compound depending on track and setup used.
Meza994
3 years ago
@DavidG53 Yeah the AI is definitely a problem here and i totally understand the difficulty of making such choices, too many variables you have to think of, i just want this tyre depth so badly haha any way to make it realistic but with AI thats not at an unfair advantage or disadvantage requires a lot of work sadly..

But im glad you found some time again for us 🙂
ScarDuck14
Legend
3 years ago
@Meza994guess I won’t get any more direct messages from you…. Welcome back @DavidG53 please dont leave Meza again 😂
Mikulitsi
3 years ago
@DavidG53 I don't remember if this has been asked already but...
I've been wondering that do different time of days (like sunrise or sunset) and the different track temps affect the grip on the track and if it has any effect on the tyre temps?
DavidG53
3 years ago
@Mikulitsi yes but negligible, sadly.
Mikulitsi
3 years ago
@DavidG53 I understand you said it's negligible but I'd love to know more about it because for some reason these little details interest me haha. Like how small of change is it in terms of grip and which time of day/track temp gives the best grip etc.

Also idk if this 2nd question is in your area of expertise but talking about different time of day settings, do you know how many minutes it takes in game to go from a certain time of day setting to a different one (like from sunset to dusk or from midnight to dawn etc.)?
Meza994
3 years ago
@Mikulitsi I didnt do much testing on the tyre temps changing with track temperature but from what i saw its within 2-3° celsius.. Not too much currently but if the actual track temperature range would be 10°-60° instead of ~22°-38° these differences could be fairly realistic, highest to lowest would make a considerable difference on tracks which are already a overheating problem at low temps but with 55° track you would have to drive very careful... But then again the AI would be required to react to track temps etc...
Mikulitsi
3 years ago
@Meza994 Well I hope David can give a thorough answer
Mikulitsi
3 years ago
<Chassis>
<Mass value="798" />
<MOIX value="877" />
<MOIY value="2042" />
<MOIZ value="126" />
<COMY value="0.21" />
<COMZ value="0.108" /

Looking at these rows from the game files and based on the earlier replies here, I guess COM means "Center of Mass". However does anyone have any idea what MOI could mean?
Bojote
3 years ago
https://www.britannica.com/science/moment-of-inertia
Mikulitsi
3 years ago
@Bojote Thank you! That makes sense
P4st3l1ak
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@DavidG53, I was told to look up your YT tips&tricks clip about wing setup, by @ScarDuck14 . It is interesting that "5 up, 5 down" would make such a difference (not always for me as I am not as consistent as you are shown in clip 😉 )
So if this little tweak makes the difference, why it isn't used in pre-defined setups? 😉
I also noticed that AI cars always use one of pre-defined setups, usually the one suggested to gamers in FP1. And it seems - based on UDP telemetry - all of them use the same.
Is that intentional, to put AI little bit on a back foot and give us gamers a chance to beat them? 😉
DavidG53
3 years ago
@P4st3l1ak Ai actually use different setup. I don't believe udp shows it correctly. Mainly wing and ride height difference, that's all.

Why it isn't used in pre-defined setups? Because players at lower level must be able to drive the car as well. Internally we found that a lot more people would just spin and not complete a single race if we went for faster setups.

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