How Realistic is F122? (According to an F1 Engineer)
Interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VwhThyQ6V8
Forum Discussion
@Wollcott Before people ask: the most realistic F1 car in a game is the W13 in iracing as it was designed and programmed by mercedes engineers themselves. (and yea the FFB in iRacing isnt that great as well, pretty poor actually. But it is still miles clear of F1 22 - and that is insane to think as iRacing is from 2008 and F1 22 basically 2015)
@Wollcott did you get to drive a sim in a factory or in the team's entourage? This is off topic, but if that's the case I'd love to hear more about it and I'm most definitely not alone in that! Though there are a bunch of users who casually play the game, there's a good number of legit petrol heads here that will always perk their ears up to hear such stories 👌
However if you got into a sim in an exhibition, museum or the sort, please bear in mind that those sims are tuned for the general public. I'm referring to sims like those in the Ferrari museums or in the various exhibitions the teams promote around the world.
It is still a great experience, but the sims are tuned down with TC, lower FFB strength etc.
Regarding going flat on 2nd gear, I'll properly attach a telemetry screenshot when I get back to my desktop but you'll notice how their throttle application is not so binary. And race start incidents are there to demonstrate that it is not as simple as go full throttle from 2nd onwards. Healthy dose of upshifting or throttle modulation.
To those not entirely sure what this is about, think of the engine speed (RPM) as the source of power of the car, not the throttle. The throttle is a valve that allows you to increase or decrease the engine speed at different rates - so 50% throttle will increase engine RPM at a certain rate from idle to 12.000 or whatever, while going full throttle will do so much faster. It is not instantaneous though. You can be at full throttle in lower gears no problem, as long as you upshift earlier (shortshifting) when the wheels get close to breaking traction as the power increases as a result of higher engine speeds.
That said, the game has a lot to improve to get to a more realistic state. David Greco himself has mentioned many aspects he wasn't content about in F1 22 and even shared a long list of handling features and updates he'd like to work on, so that (not being in a good state) is not a secret.
Same goes for the FFB.
Comparing it to iRacing as a game "released In 2008" is misleading too. iRacing gets huge updates from time to time and the last one was pushed just a few months ago. Literally everything from AI to crash models to FFB gets reworked in these big updates. If you were to play the game in an earlier state it would not feel the same.
And I imagine you know this already, but for those reading iRacing's W13 was not designed and programmed by Mercedes. They did a great collab, with constant feedback from the team and even a Discord server just for Mercedes engineers and iRacing devs to hang out and discuss progress with the car.
It was still made by the iRacing guys over data provided by Mercedes.
You can take a peek at how it happened on the iRacing Downshift podcast with James Vowles, episode 40. Yes, that Vowles that has just jumped ships and is now the boss at Williams haha! In the show he speaks at length on how the car was developed, what sort of data they disclosed for the iRacing team, what the iRacing devs got right and what they got wrong. Keyword here being "they", as in iRacing devs - Mercedes didn't code or program anything, just gave feedback on how it was shaping up and tested it in a simracing rig with Anthony Davidson and Mercedes eSports drivers Jarno and I think Moreno.
- @mariohomoh Ive driven a car in a actual sim once and apart from the huge screen and the motion its not that different to rFactor2 or iRacing. Id say closer to rF2 as the physics are more realistic than iRacing. And we specifiically asked if there were any assists or anything but it was possible to do it without any of these.
And yes, ofc its true that iRacing nowadays is a lot different to the first days and the game is much more demanding on specs etc. The FFB tho hasnt really changed in at least the last 6-7 years. You get miles better feedback than F1 22 and yet its thousand times worse than for example Asetto Corsa. Feedback wise this is how i want the F1 game to be. If thats the case tho you can also argue that no pad player can ever drive against wheel anymore as the feedback would make the wheel way too good compared to pad. but then also i think thats just fair and fine as its still a racing game and i havent seen someone drive a car IRL with a stick. so i think proper wheel support is definitely needed in this game.
Regarding the W13: I didnt mean to mislead, obviously they did not code it for the developer, but as you already pointed out they offered a lot of data and collaborated while making the car. And the car feels a lot different to the previous iracing F1 car, although that one is very realistic as well.
About the gears: nobody in real life goes flat out in 2nd gear on every corner where you use it, but it can be possible, while in F1 22 flat in third is already impossible in many instances. But also this has been an issue for so many years in the f1 games and i have no clue why codemasters still goes this route. And every year its the same. First it feels like lower gears are back but after a month it turns out its even higher gears than the previous year. Its weird and silly.
@mariohomoh wrote:@Wollcott did you get to drive a sim in a factory or in the team's entourage? This is off topic, but if that's the case I'd love to hear more about it and I'm most definitely not alone in that! Though there are a bunch of users who casually play the game, there's a good number of legit petrol heads here that will always perk their ears up to hear such stories 👌
I'd love to hear that too.
And guys, don't get me wrong - the discussion is great - but it sounds like you are expecting something that was never intended for this F1 game series - as far as I think of the game in those years playing it. It's like judging a fish by its abiity of climbing trees. To implement this in such level of finesse the game could never be released yearly.
And to say that TC medium players have no part in the discussion sounds arrogant to me. Firstly 'cause splits the players into categories where some are relevant and some aren't. Second because those are the guys who feel the most this misbalance in traction - though they don't necessarily know what's going on and why. So, if it's hard for us, for them it's almost impossible - to the point where they could lose interest in learning and turning assists off and ultimately dropping the game.
@dancrodriguesVast majority play the game using a pad. So game should be optimised for pad as well as wheel. Without those on pad. The game wouldn’t be financially viable
afterall it’s advertised and sold as a game.
- @ScarDuck14 100%. there is no point in optimizing this game for a wheel and not pad. right now its still optimized for a pad, even if its not as OP as last year and previous versions.
BUT that is no reason to not include full potential FFB for a wheel. And if at the end of the day pacegaps are too big then so be it, let pad players drive pad leagues and wheel players wheel leagues. i just dont see any reason why they to this day have not integrated actual wheel support.
Take AC as an exmaple: its obviously optimized fully to a wheel as its a real racing game and the FFB is incredible well and accurate. Yet, a pad player can still almost reach wheel pace and the support for pad is very good too. a member of our league started playing ACC on a pad and he couldnt believe that his controller was able to give so detailed feedback on everything. So, it is possible to fully support wheels and still optimize for a pad.
- @dancrodrigues No , not at all do i want to put people in categories, but in this specific topic, about realism and comparing to real life it does not make sense to listen to people that play with TC as obviously there is no common ground to compare. Its nothing against someone using it. But it doesnt make sense comparing the handling/traction etc. from a traction control played game to a real life car without that assist. Same thing about ABS. the only real comparison which makes sense and brings everybody on the same level is 0 assists in game, as there as 0 assists IRL (ok power steering maybe)
But about the first part:
What bugs me the most is that F1 cars in actual simulators are MUCH easier to drive than the F1 game. I dont get the intention behind this. Why is it easier to dirve an F1 car on iRacing than the offical F1 game? if anything that makes people lose interest even more or compensate it by turning on assists.
Thats why 2020 was so good. and as far as i know it was the only F1 game where developers had actual discussions and meetings with real life F1 drivers.
@Wollcott wrote:
But about the first part:
What bugs me the most is that F1 cars in actual simulators are MUCH easier to drive than the F1 game. I dont get the intention behind this. Why is it easier to dirve an F1 car on iRacing than the offical F1 game? if anything that makes people lose interest even more or compensate it by turning on assists.
Thats why 2020 was so good. and as far as i know it was the only F1 game where developers had actual discussions and meetings with real life F1 drivers.There's no intention, mate. I think it's due to having to release yearly and, at the same time, bring something new and engagin to a wide range of players, from casuals to petrol heads every single year.
They surely don't have enough time to code from scratch every year so they may add something here, another thing there and anyone who has some experince in coding knows that is terrible. Imagine small regs changes every year, plus adding story mode, then supercars to grow the player base and make more money... I have my reservations too on their work and in some bugs but I think they do great with their timescale - here in Brasil we say that the "blanket is too small" meaning one can't cover it all.
- @dancrodrigues oh and about the sim i replied above this post already
And can you attest that you were driving a sim in a non-exhibition context specced to realistic settings? Bear in mind that in a exhibition or museum, the guy in the simracing booth is not a race or simulator engineer, that parameters for tyre grip are made on an software engine level, and simulators on booth, however fancy, are not decommissioned real F1 sims but rigs built in partnership with consumer grade brands like Fanatec and Thrustmaster. Ferrari for instance has a long, long time partnership with Thrustmaster and those booths are built by them with the general public in mind.
Sorry for going over this point again. It’s just that from your reply it wasn’t clear if you got into a real F1 sim, or on an exhibition “F1 sim”.
Back to iRacing, I’m not talking about PC specs to run the game. I’m referring to game engine and software parameters for handling and physics. On this one we’re going to have a hard disagreement, mate, as even FFB ultimately changes as a result of new tyre models or category updates (GT3, LMP, etc), and these get reworked frequently. Even 2023 Season 1 introduced significant BoP changes for the GT3 cars and they veritably change how a car handles.
Again, I don’t see how alluding to iRacing being released in 2008 has any bearing on this debate.
Now back to the torque and gear ratio, sorry for the crude paint intervention:
If anyone here have any trouble reading the chart, I’ll be happy to break it down. But hopefully anyone can see the shortshifting and the frequent throttle modulation in gears as high as 5th?
Anyway there was a dedicated section in Ultra’s video all about how off the mark the gear ratios are. Isn’t that exactly their addressing of torque and traction issues of F1 22? Gear ratios are precisely that, all about torque delivery.
