Re: F1 2022 what did we learn/Handling VS Real Life (clips updated)

39 Replies

Dansmotorsport
Rising Vanguard
3 years ago
@Meza994Exactly we haven’t had any irl hot laps yet so you can’t say it’s unrealistic and yet again comparing Bahrain is again the old game. I’m not talking about the old game. We all know the handling wasn’t right in the old game.

If the f1 drivers say this years game is unrealistic then fair enough but until they do I’ll refuse to say it’s unrealistic.
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@Dansmotorsport You dont get me.. im comparing a similar corner from real life 2022 Bahrain to what the players did in the game.. So same cars, same speed, similar steering angle (even less ingame) and yet IRL they had more throttle applied.. We have 2022 telemetry available just not from Miami but corners are comparable to some degree from track to track.
Dansmotorsport
Rising Vanguard
3 years ago
@Meza994But there is no footage from f1 22 at Bahrain so you can’t say this.
this is my point
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@Dansmotorsport Not from Bahrain.. But from Miami.. How often do i have to repeat myself? Haha if a corner is taken at a similar speed with similar steering angle it is comparable, even when its not the same track.
Dansmotorsport
Rising Vanguard
3 years ago
@Meza994 No as the surface grip will be different so until there is some running tonight at Miami you can’t say it’s unrealistic.
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@Dansmotorsport Bahrain has very bad surface grip.. Because of the sand they need to run mid to high downforce setups similar to Australia to compensate for the low tyre grip. But ingame the tyre grip is usually 4-5% too high although for the newer tracks it has been a bit better.

Also Norris did a (forced) lap you can find it on youtube, he is driving super bad in there like 5-6 seconds off of esports guys.. So it cant be 100% the same :P
mariohomoh
Hero (Retired)
3 years ago
@Meza994
I'm talking about a good number of clips with Youtubers racing with cold tyres, confirmed as they cycled through the MFD. Norris uploaded a hot lap in what I assume was Time Trial on his Quadrant channel and he did not seem to struggle with grip.
The AI seemed pretty catchable even with DRS off, so probably not pushing or the difficulty too low.
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@mariohomoh I know what you were talking about and in the race the tyre temps matter a lot!

I was just saying that im referring always to time trial laps with my Handling model "complains"..

Regarding Norris well for the last straight he was struggling a bit and wasnt pushing at all on that lap, makes the car look more stable but we need to wait till we have more to go off for sure.

AI is not finished and yes i have seen that catching, might be too many variables, ERS deployment, low drag setups, too low difficulty, too high slipstream coded into the cars.. Cant tell that from here
Hempyjr
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
The handling from real life or anything else from real life can't be recreated 100% in a game, no matter if we talk about a handling from an F1 car or we talk about an aviation simulation game. That's why it says "simulation", because no matter what you do, it won't be 100% like in real life, it's just a simulation, it won't never be real! All they can do is let's say to be close, but never the same. It doesn't matter what the telemetry says or not, will never be 100% accurate. Maybe in teams like Ferrari with multi milions simulator to match the real life but somehow i doubt that they are able to recreate 100% the real life in there too, after all their is called still "a simulator".
mariohomoh
Hero (Retired)
3 years ago
@Meza994 I'm not too worried. The sample we've got is too small, it could be either way. But we've already got upgraded kerbs in 2021 that hampered these Need For Speed players and Kiefer and Opmeer already came out saying how kerbs are even more realistic this time, hurting your aero if you're too aggressive over them.

Lando showed that you can do well if you apply the throttle smoothly. He drove pretty comfortably and sure quite slowly, but it shows that you can work with all the RPM range of the power train alright.

Now that seems like quite the overly obvious thing to say, but people seem to forget how pay drivers and even moderately competent ones can absolutely lose it even in a straight line in real life if they aren't careful with the throttle. These cars are easily capable of breaking traction on lower speeds.
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@Hempyjr True 100% is never achievable but looking at the past it wasnt 90%, not even 80%..

Maybe im just scared of an experiment happy developer going for more "risk-reward" style handling instead of following real life just like last year haha but for all i think its about 5% or less more grip at minimum loads.. Compared to last year when the rear was missing 30% grip at maximum loads..
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@mariohomoh True for this year its the right development but im just a scarred kid after last year vs. last year real life haha.. Opmeer yes, he is experienced IRL dunno about Kiefer though.. Still applies to Opmeer though afaik he never drove a high downforce car.. These things are just crazy on kerbs but yeah new era, new kerb behaviour!

That with the RPM might be a real problem as i said to Nuv in another thread.. The engine working well at all revs might be the cause for the extreme short shifting which got to pretty bad levels in the esport scene currently.. It just works too well at lower revs, no downside from short shifting.

Absolutely, everybodys favourite (maybe second) paydriver Latifi showed that in Jeddah but especially in higher speeds that shouldnt happen except for too much steering angle.. But those spins are often also the worse cars that have either a bad aero balance (oversteery) or just in general too little downforce.. They are tricky in low speed but so far i didnt hear many drivers IRL complain about a lack of traction as people did yesterday ingame
SomaticCoast375
New Hotshot
3 years ago
@Dansmotorsport You’ll see that the game is unrealistic very soon and then let’s see your excuse to defend Codemasters
mariohomoh
Hero (Retired)
3 years ago
@Meza994 There's an old Michelin (!) report floating around on internet ether analysing tyres and grip. It gives the different coefficients of grip of different tarmac surfaces, like very granular tarmac or chunkier tarmac etc.

And the coefficient of painted surfaces.

It's a huge drop. If it's wet then it's massive.

These cars can absolutely lose it if you're not mindful of your driving.

I didn't get what you meant with "didn't hear many drivers IRL complain about a lack of traction as people did yesterday ingame", sorry.

Can you plot the power curve of these engines from the game files? I mean the torque + power curves against engine RPM, the dyno graph. That would shed a beacon of a light over how to time your upshifts in the game.
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@mariohomoh Of course its much less grip but especially the kerbs get more grippy the more they are driven on.. Besides the old Michelin reports dont take the huge amount of downforce into consideration.. But yes especially on kerbs but always you gotta be alert on a street circuit.. Wait wrong sentence😂 drivers can always lose it if they are not careful but just stomping the throttle in first 2nd gear without care also never worked ingame..

I meant that the real F1 drivers almost only said that slow corners are very slow this year and rotating the car is not as easy. But i didnt see complains about traction out of slow corners by the drivers. At east nothing comparable to what the players said about ingame.

In the gamefiles the power output is scripted to certain revs, which is logical works that way IRL too, especially the V8s were only putting high HP out at optimum revs, 5k lower and you would lose a lot of HP.. In 2021 its maximum power at 11k revvs, minimal lower till 12.3 and dropping a lot also below 9.9k (much more below 9k)
Dansmotorsport
Rising Vanguard
3 years ago
@SomaticCoast375I’m not defending codemasters im just saying that you can’t say it’s unrealistic when the irl drivers haven’t driven the only track we have seen in the game. Plus this is a pre release version, so it could be changing anyway.

My main fear is that people moan (which is already happening) about the lack of traction and then codemasters change it to something that is even further away from what it is like to please these players rather than sticking to what they know and the input they have from the f1 drivers.

Its ok though I’ll ask Esteban what he thinks of the game in terms of handling when he’s back from Miami next year and using the real simulator.
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@Dansmotorsport Codemasters dont have a close dialogue with drivers to get the handling right.. Otherwise 2021 wouldnt have happened..

Its correct that they shouldnt listen to players only complaining because they struggle but fake difficulty is even worse.. And not all people writing on here got no idea of physics or how the game engine works..
mariohomoh
Hero (Retired)
3 years ago
@Meza994 the coefficient of grip is a multiplier, what do you mean it doesn't take downforce into consideration? It's a different factor altogether. The coefficient of grip I'm referring to is the one between the rubber and the tarmac, the downforce doesn't matter.

Now when you're calculating your total grip or longitudinal grip for instance, obviously the downforce or rather the load generated by your aero plus car weight is multiplied by said coefficient, as Grip_Long = Load * Grip_Coef

Having downforce doesn't change the coefficient of grip between road and rubber. What I meant to say in the previous post is that you can easily spin the car even with no steering lock if you're not mindful of power and surface.

What you're describing for the engine power output is on par with the little dyno info we've got for these cars. I really wished we could extract more juicy data from it!
Dansmotorsport
Rising Vanguard
3 years ago
@Meza994No but they do ask on their feel they did this with 20 when on lockdown as the drivers were playing it more and leclerc is an ea embasidor so I highly suspect they have got his input at least.
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@Dansmotorsport Well 2020 was the one in which they mostly simplified the ERS due to the drivers.. And being an ambassador doesnt mean anything.. He gets preferred treatment that mostly it lol Might be he got involved a tiny bit but anything major would have been promoted as such by Codemasters.. They would use that opportunity "F1 22, made with the input of Championship leader Charles Leclerc for maximum immersive gameplay".. Whenever a person of public interest has input on such things its promoted as such so not gonna be much..
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@mariohomoh Yeah the total grip is more what i was referring to as that was still a lot in 2021.. The tyre grip isnt the supreme factor though, the amount of downforce makes the tyre grip a lesser factor for total grip than in Michelin days.

Yes spinning was always easy, i didnt disagree.. But its not that incredibly difficult either, more difficult than in 2021 or 2020 but i think people will always miss each other on this topic as everybody has their own definition on what is called a lot of spinning or little spinning.. In 2019 Vettel was spinning cars right left and center with cars quite a bit harder to spin than the current cars..

Well i shortened it for you, didnt want to add all ~15 splines for the specific power outputs for you haha the whole engine is quite a bit of details but never too important to me, for modding a singular value is sufficient in a different folder haha
Maxlvlreal
3 years ago
I've seen the video, but I think he drives with traction control you can see that in the last hairpin that there's something limiting revs like TC does. But what I have to say, I think it's realistic that you have less grip in low speed corners but much more grip in the high speed corners as that's the characteristics of Ground effect cars
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@Maxlvlreal True the behaviour is correct but when you start comparing the speeds of when they reach full throttle in 2021 and 2022 they can go at least the same speed full throttle and even earlier due to the lower cornering speed and therefore reach the right steering at lower speed too.. Point is the traction is not bad at all, but at least for some parts Blakely seemed more realistic with his throttle application..
BadMayh3m
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
I know the handling model has been change when I saw the wings could be changed all the way to 50.
Unless this was just done to make Supercars work I would think you can tune out any tire temp or traction issues, imo it's to early to tell yet.
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@BadMayh3mIf the traction would genuinely be too low it wouldnt be the solution to just go higher rear downforce. This leads to a understeery car and less top speed and if it behaves like last year when the AI didnt care about low traction/grip (doesnt seem to bad currently though!) so forcing us to go with a setup we can get the maximum out of the car with but is genuinely slower would be the solution.. Just get it right in the first place.. In 5 hours we will know a bit more if it actually is close to real life traction
And for the 1-50 downforce slider it could be either for super cars but also more steps in between the old (1-11) for more fine tuning and a wider range in general, from very low downforce (1-10 -> Monza) to very high downforce (40-50 -> Monaco). Potentially no more different car performances in the first place then and you have to go with the correct setup yourself.