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SexyBrigadeiro's avatar
SexyBrigadeiro
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago

Re: Is the AI top speed broken again/still?

@ScarDuck14 

I understand all that you said and I wouldn't be surprised if the AIs/game are kinda 'scripted' to 'override' their supposed normal performance and get some 'extra' just to make things hard(er) to the player, BUT.. in this case, that's also why we (the players) have the ability of increasing (or decreasing) the AI difficulty level if we want/need to, right?

I mean.. there should be no need for the game to literally 'cheat' and give the AIs some BS 'boosts' just to keep things 'entertaining' and 'exciting' for the players - IF we want a bigger challenge, we should just increase the AI level and that's it - that's also why we have the option to 'extrapolate' the AI limit (which is supposed to be 100) and increase them up to 110, for example..

But on the other hand, what's happening is that we're being forced to decrease the AI level - and they're still 'cheating' and doing things they weren't supposed to (and things that the player can't replicate) anyway, so.. all in all, it's just some annoying (and unnecessary - and unwanted) BS added (intentionally or by accident) by the devs.

All I know is that I don't like the AIs in this particular game (F1 22) and I didn't have ANY of these issues in the previous games - I used to play against the AIs at around 95-100 and it was pretty tough and I wouldn't always win, but at least it didn't feel like they were cheating and/or obeying different 'laws of physics' than the players..

Whatever the devs did to "improve" the AIs in this game, I didn't like it (personal opinion, but I read a lot of people complaining about pretty much the same things so I know I'm not 'crazy' - at least I hope not - lol)..

Still this doesn't make sense to me:

If a car/team is maximized (in terms of performance), how can the other 9 teams (on a LOWER level of performance - including top speed) and also with a cap of 'only' 90% of their full performance, get HIGHER top speeds (and better performance overall)?!

THIS is what pisses me off and makes me feel like I'm competing against cheaters..

I 'worked' to develop my car to the maximum and still most of the other teams, which are waaaaay below that maximum (and limited by 90% of their total strength) are performing better (higher top speed).. That's just doesn't make sense (this 'game mechanics') and it's pure BS - just frustrating and annoying..

6 Replies

  • ScarDuck14's avatar
    ScarDuck14
    Legend
    3 years ago
    @SexyBrigadeiro Totally with you. Because I’m odd. Last year and the year before I started hundreds off my team careers. Each time picking different engine then answered the questions differently until I’d covered every which way. But last year in particular because there we’re so many bugs., As this year I didn’t bother getting serious about my team career until a lot off the handling and my team bugs(sponsors not paying out etc) had been fixed. So I thought I may aswell drop ai to 70 so I could win from very first race. And turn off failures. Which I did. Soon as I got into second half off season.. it would rain every race. Bottas and Verstappen went hyper aggressive whenever they were behind me they would blatantly ram into me. All my R&D started failing first time. And as I got closer to winning the championship with 4-5 races to go I would find last five races the ai would catch me. 3-4 seconds a lap. On the last lap I was getting swarmed and rammed:

    But the funniest one was got to Abu Dhabi. Teammate had only won 10ish points: I’d already seal the championship. And only needed to score 10 points to seal my first constructors. But only wanted the play station trophy. So changed race length to 5 laps. And turned the ai down to 40. I’m on pole. First 2 laps I pulled out a 10 second lead. Job done. On the last lap the ENTIRE grid had caught me. Hadt to constantly flashback as although managing to avoid eachother just kept crashing into me.

    So I realised my R&D failures were probably scripted so I didn’t upgrade my car so quick. As a lot off people had said in 2020 it was to easy to max my team car.

    Noticed if I was doing well and punching above my weight it would start raining more and more i think scripted to make it harder

    Bottas and Verstappen. Mainly Bottas would on purposely crash into me. I’d watch the replay and from their cockpit cam. They had plenty off room to pass me. But just as they got up along side me you’d see their steering wheel for no reason then sharply.

    So I managed to talk to Codemasters and as with all developers they never confirm or deny they use scripts and cheats. But I got my point across by explaining that I get the scripts cheats and rubber banding are there to make it more exciting for the majority who are casual and younger players who for the most part will play on under 80Ai. But once ai is on 80+ With 2nd driver boost it starts getting challenging and scripts and cheats shouldn’t be active. Did they listento me or not? Probably not. But This year they added adaptive ai for casual players 😀

    Doesn’t rain so much. But when it does seems to get dry/wet in last few laps where ai stay out. But if we want to finish we have to pit. Ai we’re great when game released because it actually felt they were racing eachother. But I think because it caused so many ai to crash out or pit for new wings. They put a stop to majority off Ai wheel to wheel.

    But all that said. It’s just my opinion and despite twitters best efforts. opinions are not facts😀
  • SexyBrigadeiro's avatar
    SexyBrigadeiro
    Seasoned Ace
    3 years ago

    @ScarDuck14 

    Once again I agree with you and have been through several similar situations with these F1 series games in the past and also in the current one - although these issues about the AIs in the career modes are worse in F1 22, IMO..

    I never liked any kind of rubber bending (or adaptive AIs) in video games - at least not in games where the players can easily set the AI difficulty level (pretty much 99,99% of all video games, BTW), simply because that makes it almost pointless to be able to select the difficulty level and in the end that's just a good excuse for the game to 'cheat' and beat the player on several situations where it normally wouldn't/shouldn't.

    And no, I don't want to always win and/or for things to be always super easy, but I also don't want to lose just because my opponent literally cheated and did things they weren't supposed to do and I just can't have a fair 'battle' - not to mention that we play video games for fun - to just relax, have some fun, have a good time, etc - and when you get frustrated and stressed while doing it, that's just terrible.

    I understand the intentions about rubber bending and although it may be good to try and help beginner players, making the AI 'slow down' or 'play light', by literally adapting to a lower skill level player, at the same time, it makes them literally cheat if a more experienced player wants a bigger challenge on a  higher difficulty level - and this is not cool.

    I like games that give the players as many options (about anything and everything) as possible and then let the players decide how they want to play the game - and the same applies to the AI difficulty levels - here in F1 22, for example, we literally have 110 different options for the AI difficulty level (from 0 - or 1 - to 110, I believe) and this is great!

    But when you have, for example, AIs with a LESS developed car and with only 90% of the total strength getting higher top speeds, super acceleration out of corners and super late braking, etc, this is just BS..

    Once again: I like a good challenge and I don't want to always win - I'm super ok with losing and getting my a$$ kicked, BUT.. as long as I KNOW my opponents are playing fair and that they're bound to the same 'game rules' as I am - and we all know the AIs in this game are literally breaking those rules (like Neo in the Matrix) and that's NOT fun, or cool, or 'oh, it's just to keep the challenge level high' - that's just annoying, frustrating, pure BS, unfair and literally cheating.

    If the AIs were bound to the same game rules as the players and if it was super easy for me to beat them, I would gladly set them to 110, or ask the devs to give us the chance to increase them to 120, 200, 999, whatever - the point being: let the PLAYERS decide how difficult they want the game to be, instead of giving the AIs a free pass to break the game rules and do things the player can't do - this is REALLY annoying and it kills the fun of playing the career modes against the AIs..

    ...

    Last but not least - and please, don't get me wrong, but.. - thanks for setting my previous post as a 'solution' (thanks for the XP - lol), but I don't think that's actually a solution and it would be good to keep the topic 'open' for future discussions if anybody wants to talk about these issues - and if not.. the topic will fade and 'die' naturally anyway, so.. at least I 'complained' about it and I can only hope the devs make the AIs better for future games (they really screwed them up in this one - sorry, but it's true)..

  • ScarDuck14's avatar
    ScarDuck14
    Legend
    3 years ago
    @SexyBrigadeiro Don’t flatter yourself this time. I accepted solution by accident 😜

    Some years back on PS4 I bought a cheap turn based table top strategy game. Called Battle of the Bulge. If your not up with WW2. It was * last big attack on the western allies.

    But it intrigued me because the developer (One guy I think) made the game as a exercise on Ai. Game doesn’t take long but he included a detailed explanation on what’s wrong with most if not all gaming Ai and why he was attempting a different approach to Ai and he added all his development notes.

    Any way he first explained Ai isn’t actually hard to code. He said the issue comes after you’ve got the Ai performing at 100%. He went on that if 100% equates to the games hardest level. You then have to dumb it down to lower difficulty levels such as medium and easy which is really hard to do and that causes the ai to do stupid random things. And it’s worse if the ai is already stupid because whoever coded it in the first place lacks know how.

    So he says ALL developers have two go to tools. Scripts… So the Ai in this case. Tanks and troops move, attack, defend at a specific turn or time. Problem with the his is. If player has played through a game a few times. Player knows when and where the attack is coming and therefore easily prepare: So to combat this and keep it challenging for the player Cheats are coded for the ai to use. Normally buffing ai or nerfing player units. Until both fall ai/player within a predetermined bracket set by the developer. So doesn’t matter how good the player is.

    So this guy decided instead off different difficulty levels. His approach was to code his ai to represent 3 different Generals mentality. cautious/balanced/Aggressive

    And First time I played the game I thought ok I’ll go up against the cautious Ai general. Thinking it would be easier. And it felt that way halfway through the game though where I’d been chasing the ai units around My units were tired and low off supplies. But I was winning: destroyed load off German units…. Loads and loads off the ai’s weak inexperienced units. Then within a few turns the ai elite panzer units started moving forward and I was massacred. My units with No ammo no fuel. The ai just bypassed them., And doubled teamed my fresh well supplied units.

    So next game I decided ha I will move all my units up together supporting eachother. So no single units get cut off and isolated. But as I moved forward on mass. Only saw the odd German. So thought it’s cause I’ve got strategy right and ai cautious nature ment he’s falling back.. Can’t run forever I thought. Turns out the ai elite tank units could run. As my entire army moved forward. I was getting sucked in by the ai. And again within a few turns the ai general had done me again. It sent its elite tank units. Around my flanks and in behind me again cutting off my supply lines and then massacred me. I play the cautious ai half dozen times and I got beat every time. As it was cautious and I was impatient it just waited for me and then countered my every move. But playing the aggressive ai was easier because like me it would preferred to attack at every opportunity. And then when I played balanced ai. Every outcome could and did happen. Both wTight small victories and both had massive victories.

    To this day. Game was a basic turn based strategy game developed by one guy(I think) but the ai was fire 👍
  • SexyBrigadeiro's avatar
    SexyBrigadeiro
    Seasoned Ace
    3 years ago

    @ScarDuck14 

    LOL - it's ok, mate and I was totally not tapping on my back because of that post (clearly not a 'solution' at all), so no worries!

    Once again I agree with what you said and I can only add this:

    I obviously don't have a clue about coding, or making video games (I only like to play them - lol) and I can easily assume it's never that easy and simple to code an AI and make sure it's gonna behave 'perfectly' and please everyone, etc..

    But also as I said, I don't like when the AIs do things they weren't supposed to do and then make the competition unfair.

    IF this is the only possible way, then that's just a shame, but I still don't like it.

    Even on previous F1 games by Codies, I noticed the AIs doing 'weird' (unfair) things (that are a LOT worse now, in F1 22) and one of the most noticeable things is, for example, when a player tries to brake as late as possible for a corner (trying to overtake) and then the AIs literally respond to the player's input on the brake pedals - meaning the AI will only brake when the player brakes - so, if the player is already braking on the very limit, it should be impossible for anyone to brake even later and still take the corner just fine, BUT.. the AIs can do it (not the player though and if we try, we're gonna go out of the track, or hit a wall, or other cars) - the AIs can literally break the 'laws of physics' of the game to do that (brake super late and still take the corner just fine) - and they do it ALL of the time on F1 22..

    So, you add this to their unrealistic & impossible to beat acceleration + top speed (in scenarios they should NEVER be that 'powerful') and it's just a big unfair competition, to the point where it's just an annoying, frustrating, upsetting and stressful experience, instead of just relaxing and having fun, with some great competition and fun challenges..

    So, whatever they did and are doing with the AIs in this game, it's just not good - I'm sure it's not easy to do it and they're working hard and trying their best (I don't want to be unfair myself here), BUT.. the final result is still too far from good and it clearly needs improvement, adjustment and actual fixes - and I didn't even mention their actual behavior (awareness) of the players when fighting for positions, literally ignoring the player and just crashing into us..

    So, sadly, at the moment, the AIs in F1 22 are a big mess and it takes away most of the fun when playing the career modes, at least if you want to play on a stronger level, or unless you simply set the AIs to a lower level and just 'sunday drive your butt around the track' - which is just boring.. - although even if you set the AIs to a low level, they can still do most of these 'absurd' (unrealistic/unfair) things..

    Anyway..

    The whole point of this topic is to create some 'awareness' around these issues and hope the devs can make things better in this regard for F1 22, or at least for F1 23 and the future games of the series.

    Here's hoping..
    Cheers!

  • ScarDuck14's avatar
    ScarDuck14
    Legend
    3 years ago
    @SexyBrigadeiro I’ve also noticed the ai braking late perfectly in sync with me as we’ll. so I’ve found as the ai are generally slow going into a corners. I brake earlier then coast and roll past them into the corner. It does require nailing the brake perfectly. As on occasion I’ve scrubbed way to much speed well before the corner: but I’ll then flashback as much as I don’t like to. But I will cheat if the game cheats simply cause games are ment to be fun.. Raging is not fun
  • SexyBrigadeiro's avatar
    SexyBrigadeiro
    Seasoned Ace
    3 years ago

    @ScarDuck14 

    Yes, it's not too hard to 'understand' the AI behavior (about the brakes, for example) and then find a way to 'counter measure' that - especially when we can use Flashbacks and try as many times as possible until we get it right (and yes, that's kind of cheating too, but I usually use a lot of Flashbacks the more the AI 'cheat' as well - lol)..

    My point was just to show an actual example of how (and how much) the AIs cheat and do things they weren't supposed to do - things that literally break the game's 'laws of physics' rules and things that are literally impossible for the players to do (not just the super late braking when the player is attempting to overtake, but also the BS accel & top speed, etc), so.. all in all it can be pretty infuriating when you're trying your best to do a great move and the AI just cheat to kill your move with some unfair & unrealistic move by themselves..

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