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You would all just make my life 10 times more complicated than what it is, and the time is never enough.
Also we would just be giving more tools to exploit to esports guys, and once it is exploited, everyone here will go from, oh so nice new system to, is so crap, you codemasters are ..... And everyone will just get angry at me. Plus, this would be something to plan, design and code at the beginning of a project, not when the game is almost released.
- Meza9943 years agoSeasoned Ace
@DavidG53Nobody said it must be done for F1 22😏
I think everything we bring up on the forums is just meant as a genuine idea that we would like implemented at some point, doesnt matter if now, the next game, the game after etc. Just things we would like to see.
I get your point but is it justifiable to limit a games potential because some will exploit it and idiots will blame the dev for it? Like take the Souls/Borne serious, it gets exploited like no tomorrow yet the fanbase doesnt hate on the devs.. Okay thats saying more about a toxic fanbase of F1 games🤔 Just to emphasize it, i can really understand your points but people would even hate on you when theres nothing to exploit "eww how boring, this game is no fun" or something like that.. But again, i know its very difficult and most fans arent grateful no matter the effort!
Just out of curiousity, how bad would you deem the exploit potential of 2 modes we could adjust the deployment for each gear (2nd-8th) on a scale from 0.2 to 0.7? Just limiting to whats useful - mariohomoh3 years agoHero (Retired)I think @DavidG53 point is that there's no room for half baked ideas. To which I wholeheartedly agree.
If there's not enough time and resources to give the ERS the improvement it deserves, let it stay as it is. A step to the side or an artificial usage cap per lap doesn't add anything meaningful to the game. I'd rather keep the focus where it is, implementing good ideas, until the ERS crops up to the top of the list again. - Meza9943 years agoSeasoned Ace@mariohomoh Not really how i understand it.. Even if ERS is done exactly like it is IRL it would be very easy to exploit in a game and therefore understandably bad for the devs. Even something not true to life can add a lot to the game, like MyTeam does, its not even half baked and adds a lot
- mariohomoh3 years agoHero (Retired)@Meza994 letting you introduce a 11th team to the grid is nowhere near the same thing as limiting ERS changes to twice per lap, mate. That's an artificial limit conjured out of nowhere whereas a new entrant is something that's always in the talks and arguably very much in the making.
No one's denying that the ERS could use some love, mind you. - Meza9943 years agoSeasoned Ace@mariohomoh No budget cap, engine upgrades without using a new engine, upgrades not costing money but a magical "resource point" you gain via doing an unrealistic lap to save your tires.. Want me to go on?😂 I wasnt talking about the idea behind the mode (new team) but how its implemented as you are so keen on things only ever being implemented the right way, hell tyre temperatures should be out of the game by that logic, brake temps did virtually not matter a bit for tyre temps in 2021 yet IRL were significant.
I just dont know why you find it so wrong to copy the behaviour of real teams into the game. Teams will also switch it usually only once per lap and even in iRacing they implemented a limit on how often you can change it. Besides im not even insisting on the limit, just on the fact that without half baked things this game would only be GP mode without anything but downforce and engine power (slight exaggeration😂) - mariohomoh3 years agoHero (Retired)@Meza994 you're moving the goal posts, mate.
The ERS was far from ideal and was exploited to ridiculousness, then it was remodeled in compromise but still good enough. Adding new modes without addressing the main cause of the exploit (there should be no net advantage from the constant flicking) and just artificially capping it with a videogamey hot fix like this is a sidestep. Given that it doesn't consist in that much of an improvement, I don't think it's worth it.
You're taking my talking points, running away with them and making these absurd claims you very much know that do not fit with what I think or want of these games. Let's dial it back a bit? - Meza9943 years agoSeasoned Ace@mariohomoh The problem can only be ever fixed with a full on deployment mapping for every 50m of a track. Thats why Esports guys were flickering so much, because they did the mapping like this. Yet i doubt many casuals will have fun going through the abstract work of mapping the whole ERS, they would either never touch it or feel overwhelmed and i can see and understand how Codemasters wouldnt want that which would lead to us being stuck with the current ERS because only the mapping would resolve the flickering (for the most part) in ESports
In short: Im just taking your arguments (no half baked) to the full game. I like to do so with generalised arguments, sorry😅Without half baked ideas there is far less progression, things need to be tested with players to see the reaction and they cant afford to first develop a full fleshed feature all the time only to see the players not liking it at all. Im totally with you on the base idea but improvements rarely come at once with straight on fully right means, especially in games released every year - mariohomoh3 years agoHero (Retired)@Meza994 me saying the proposed artificial limit of changes per lap is half baked isn't a generalized argument from my part, mate. It's me straight up saying that's a bad idea.
In my opinion you have very good ideas often. In my opinion this is not one them, Meza. The reasons I stated above, mainly it being a fake and very videogamey implementation of a system already rigged up by the devs. Represents no meaningful improvement to what we've already got in my opinion and I'd rather keep it the way it is until something proper can be done about it.
Bringing other shortcomings of the game is pointless and suggesting that we'd rather have either 100% realistic systems or absolutely nothing is an unfair mischaracterization of the argument. It's about directing resources to getting the systems to a further level instead of diverting them into band-aids.
Regarding the mapping I don't even know what to say as I honestly don't get why you're suggesting the players having to manually map the deployment is the only way around it.
Let's leave for the pros 😉 - Meza9943 years agoSeasoned Ace@mariohomoh Im gonna ignore most simply because i dont feel like we will find any consens, you are for some reason allergic to something even done in real sims, which is fine! And i dont see a problem at all to limit something "artificially" which teams IRL will only do once a lap anyway. And its fine, we wont agree, we dont have to, David wont have time for any of this anyway looking at all our ideas😜
Being able to map the deployment is something players want, its something thats making a huge difference in laptime! Let me explain this a bit closer: Imagine Codemasters would do 2 ERS modes, fully mapped and not touchable by players. One will obviously be less power output, one will be more. The way the game and actual physics work the Esports guys will go for the best traction and as soon as they are safe on full throttle go for the higher power output. Then near the end of the straight they will go for the lower because its not needed to have that much power and they need to recharge battery.. You see where im going? As long as Esports guys will have to choose like this they will always flick around, no matter how detailed the ERS deployment is. Either you limit how often they can - which we know by now you are not too enthusiastic about😜 - or you give them the chance to map it themselfes to have it the way they want in the first place and yet i would still not say its impossible that they would still flick like crazy. It will never be like real life because ingame they go for the most effective ways, they dont do that necessarily IRL. - mariohomoh3 years agoHero (Retired)@Meza994 I laughed out loud at you explaining ERS deployment mapping to me 🤣
Didn't say it don't get how mapping works. My point was we're trying to fit a landscape of a subject on our 1MP layman cameras. Hence why we're all coming up with poor tacky ideas - Meza9943 years agoSeasoned Ace@mariohomoh Its not a landscape of a subject, the ERS deployment is actually super easy.. quite a bit of work to implement full mapping but to get proper ERS deployment into the game is easy, even kids understand this😂
- mariohomoh3 years agoHero (Retired)@Meza994 And yet here we see suggestions to arbitrarily limit how many times you change ERS modes. Might as well make it so that if you skillfully drift around a kerb you get one extra ERS switch. Or if you hit on a turtle shell you spin out of the track 😂
- Meza9943 years agoSeasoned Ace
@mariohomohI think you are the only one thats actually butthurt about the idea of limiting the ERS changes.. didnt see a huge outcry over the iRacing W12 with limited ERS changes😱 And those are all simracers😱😱 must be clueless casuals none the less, how dare they being able to not be disgusted by it😂
And you bring up the argument of strawman fallacy😂 shame on you😜
- Meza9943 years agoSeasoned Ace@mariohomoh To cut this whole discussion short - even though i would prefer 2 ERS modes, even the option to modify the race mode and the qualifying mode would be an amazing addition for my setup hunger😂 Although this is artificially limiting already because we are not allowed to use the hotlap mode in the race😜
- goodhand123 years agoSeasoned Scout
All in all, when I go back playing F1 2019 and have to micromanage 5 ers modes and 3 fuel mixes throughout the race it feels like a nightmare to me.
- Meza9943 years agoSeasoned Ace@goodhand12 I think nobody will disagree that managing 8 modes - while still less than what they had IRL - is annoying and unnecessary haha nobody wants that many back
- yrek1503 years agoSeasoned Traveler
I think, that good idea may be approach like with fuel on the F1 2020 - less differences between all the ERS modes, so micro management would be less powerfull.
And maybe four or five modes:
Mode 0: Fail-safe mode, to use only in case of failure - no deployment, no charge, or small chargeMode 1: Charge - more charge, less deployment, maybe 60% charge/40% deployment
Mode 2: Default - equal charge and deployment 50/50%
Mode 3: Push - less charge, more deployment, 40% charge/60% deployment
Mode 4: Overtake - 80% deploy, 20% charge
Mode 5: Quali - Deploy about 100% allowed deployment trough full lap distance
All of the modes should be pre mapped for each circuit, or we can map it manually. OR just on the car settings, we can set manually deployment/charge rate for modes 1, 2 and 3.
I think It would be more realistic, and it will make micro management, like in 2019 less powerfull.
- Meza9943 years agoSeasoned Ace@yrek150 Would be the exact same flickering as in 2019, trust me.. Besides the ERS does work differently ingame, the modes dont change your charging rate, only how much power you deploy..
Huge exploit potential and a lot of work to change it to something like this. It would be a more realistic but Esports guys would do it exactly like this: Overtake or quali for the acceleration zones in which you dont harvest anyway, from 280kph onwards mode 1 or 2 and for the braking, which is the point of the track where you charge by far the most, they go to mode 1.. Then for traction maybe Mode 3 and back up to mode 4/5..
FYI in 2019 the modes only changed from 15% deployment in "low" to ~60% deployment in "overtake/hotlap".. Not really much difference to yours regarding the "benefit" being smaller..
Its a cool idea but sadly not the fix, sorry - yrek1503 years agoSeasoned Traveler
We can always lock the quali mode only to practice, and quali sessions, and make ofertake effective only on high speeds.
But I know that, on this stage of the game development, it's so hard do program, and test it well, so it's rather idea for the F1 23 game - Meza9943 years agoSeasoned Ace@yrek150 Of course we can always lock things etc. but this would A) encourage the wrath of Mario and you dont want him to come at you with all his knowledge about the actual physics behind it😜 and B) still wouldnt fix it. They wouldnt use overtake unless they truly want to overtake which in Esports they most often dont want, they want to keep their battery high and overtake near the end. Also would be not realistic either..
There are ways to fix it for a career mode (damage to the CE with each mode change - its not too unrealistic) but they wouldnt help with single races except for when you scale it up for those which then wouldnt be realistic again.. I dont think there is a solution for the flickering that will make everybody happy. For me personally 2 fully mappable modes + full power overtake and CE damage per change would be cool but everybody has a different opinion on this which is fine, most ideas would be interesting concepts just sometimes easy to exploit😄
Obviously all our suggestions are for F1 23 at this point, we should all be on the same page there🙂 - 3 years ago@Meza994
I read that too, that the charge mode itself did not change in F1 2018 / F1 2019, and that only the rate of deployment did.
So how about we add yet another feature on top of what @yrek150 and i (in my original post at the beginning of this thread) have already proposed:
Imagine that we can only change the ERS mode (or SOC) when the team gives us the greenlight to do so!
For example, a few scenarios and how it would play out:
1. Fresh out of the pits, 80+% ERS available, clean air in front, car in front is more than 10 seconds ahead. Team gives us the order to change ERS Mode (or SOC) to a higher rate, because of all the parameters mentioned above to attack. Once we go to a certain level of ERS used, for example less than 20%, the team will tell us to reduce the ERS mode to charge some energy.
2. Stuck behind and inbetween 4 cars, a train, only around 8% ERS left, engine (or rather the Battery / Turbo Charger / MGUK / MGUH) has some wear. Team orders us to lower the rate of ERS mode (or SOC) and preserve the car.
3. Start of the race, P16 in a Red Bull, Full ERS charge. Team does not give a order but, we can ask the engineer via the voice control / radio button if we can use a higher ERS Mode (or SOC) to attack.
4. Being in "no-mans-land", car ahead 10+ seconds, car behind 10+ seconds, we drive in a Alfa Romeo, engine is showing some little amount of wear, we are in P10 and in the points. Team orders us to use the normal or default ERS Mode (or SOC). We can ask the Team to use a higher or lower ERS Mode (or SOC).
In all 4 scenarios, we can not just randomly switch through ERS Modes from corner to corner, but we will always have to consult the engineer and the team, who will then give us either a green light and or tell us "No". This would certainly fix the issue of ERS abuse!!!
Of course this would be a lot of work for Codemasters, as there would be a lot of parameters to be included and to be wary of, but we can not forget that they are professional video game developers with years and decades of experience, and now also have pretty much almost unlimited funds via EA!!!
Codemaster, if they really wanted to (and or if the community really demands it), could easily do this in 1 or 2 years of development!!!
PS: This combination of proposal would make the experience much more realistic, as in real life the drivers NEVER change the ERS Mode (or SOC) randomly on their own and always consult with their team. Whilst it is specifically the team itself that usually determines if the driver is allowed to change the ERS, and when. Sometimes it is also only the team that can change the ERS for the driver from the pitwall. - Meza9943 years agoSeasoned Ace@RedRevNow Its fairly close to real life but then again it takes it all away from us, pretty much forced what we have to deal with and the only thing we can change is overtake button.. Which is like it is IRL for the drivers but the game has long gone past "only driving the car".. Yet it would obviously have some fans that way. It would fix the flickering but also not give us freedom to decide ourself when to push or when to save battery
Could actually be the case i want to save battery when im in the middle of nowhere near the end to have battery to deploy at the end for fastest lap or push all out in order to be close enough because P9 has a penalty.. When the game dictates it it also kills the freedom.. Its extremely difficult to find something thats realistic in its approach, thats not killing the freedom yet killing the exploit. The funds or not unlimited, otherwise we would have multiple devs implementing new things into the handling model.. EA has endless money but will only ever give CM as much money as CM give EA back with sales.. - Dansmotorsport3 years agoRising Vanguard
@Meza994If you want to save battery for the end of the race don’t use overtake. Then your battery will recharge so you have battery at the end of the race.
Personally id like it to be like the drivers have it irl so that the driving is down to how you drive not your management skills with ers and stuff that the drivers don’t control. Plus putting this into to system while the race is going on will just encourage micro management which isn’t realistic.
Regards to the rate of charge depending on battery level I’m pretty sure I saw something said about it when it was first introduced by codemasters, however this is also why you don’t see esports using it unless they need to as the power output is less due to the battery being in a higher recovery mode.
I have also experienced a similar thing that with a lower battery percentage say below 30 the power is less than when the battery is say above 70 and when you have none left the power is significantly less and therefore you are slower than if you have battery.
This is why I also don’t use the ers unless I need to and never let it get less than 30 unless I’m on the last lap trying to close a gap.plus as you’ve said what we have now is the most realistic and that’s what most of us want from the game when driving the cars and not have to worry about what soc mode etc we are in.
- Meza9943 years agoSeasoned Ace@Dansmotorsport If you want pure realism you need to play a sim game, not Codemasters titles..
Its a fair opinion to only want the drivers work but then again you dont do much to the setup, dont ever do anything in MyTeam etc as the drivers dont do that.. Its a long list we got in the game that the drivers dont actually do.
Regarding charging: Esports guys save it just to always have enough, they dont need it unless they are in front and therefore save it for bad situations.. I know the deployment is lower at below 10%, you can see the battery drain slower while pushing "Overtake" above i wouldnt say so though. Also i found whats probably causing this in the data and it suggests that deployment is dropping from only 92% at 9% charge to 32% at 3% charge. Obviously these 92% and 32% are multiplied with your ERS mode. In short above 10% always full ERS mode deployment (overtake = 100%; standard = 30%)
Its also not accurate to say most players want the most realistic experience, most players just wanna have fun, whether this is achieved by arcadey means or full on realism differs from player to player. Balancing everything with "Overtake" is not like real life for example which bothers me, especially as IRL they use it much, much less than ingame.. The management is done by the team yet the player takes the teams part ingame.. Its a tough call. Personally id be settle with the ability to mod the deployment rate of the modes even if only one is available in the race. No flickering, a bit more freedom though and teams do exactly that, adapt the deployment for each track - Dansmotorsport3 years agoRising Vanguard@Meza994 I would play a more sim based game but I only really like f1 and there is nothing out there that’s console based other than f1 that has the f1 cars in it.
While I agree the my team isn’t anything really that the driver does (this is a fairly new thing to add some itching different and I like to be fair) the setup is and it’s crucial for the driver to have input in that and they decide with the team what setup to have. The amount of time they also put into the simulators back at base trying different things in setup is crazy and I think you’ll be very surprised at how much input they have if you was ever involved (yes I do know and I have been involved) the driver is always telling the engineer what the car is doing in practice but qually and race you very rarely hear from them unless they are struggling with tyres or discussing pit stops.
I would say it is that people want the cars to handle realistically and most accurate that most people want to jump in and play and not have to deal with changing ers modes etc.
The reason they use it less in real life is because it takes longer to recover irl and I believe this has been rectified in the new game having watched one of the YouTube content creators (can’t remember which one now) but even they said it takes more laps to recharge than before so you can’t just use overtake like previous games.
Yes the management of how much deployed and recovery at each part of the track is done by the team and pre set before the race but I don’t really see this as something that needs to be in the game in my opinion (as in us customise it) as I’m sure it’s already implemented in the game by codemasters just behind the scenes.
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