Community ManagerHey there, @RicochetII
Thanks for all the feedback. I just want to comment on a few things.
@RicochetII wrote:
1. Presentation: NHL uniforms, NHL equipment, NHL players, NHL arenas, etc.
In game (primarily in CHEL), those aspects are often completely ignored. Purposefully.
- Uniforms are discarded in favor of everything from hoodies to pajamas (or worse)
- Equipment gets the same treatment ignoring helmets/visors and including gloves, skates, and sticks with often silly designs
- Rinks that are a step below amateur in outdoor venues with none of the quality or atmosphere of an NHL arena
This isn't counting the alternate game modes which take some of these aspects even further.
WoC is a fantasy league. While NHL equipment is available, it's not required as this is the EASHL and not the NHL. The outdoor arena is meant to be a more casual environment where hoodies and jeans are more acceptable. Ones and Threes Eliminator are pure fantasy so you can have the casual, vanity gear. Again, these aren't NHL events.
2. Game Modes: NHL hockey is at it's core 6v6 on the ice, 5 skaters and 1 goaltender, with specific rules designed for the sport.
EA has introduced ones and threes "arcade" modes as well as the 3v3 watered-down version of NHL OT with its own set of rules.
These are secondary (or even inconsequential) to what is expected from an NHL series, which is 6v6 on-ice play with NHL rules, but they are given attention and dilute the userbase for what "should" be the primary focus. A robust and accurate representation of 6v6 NHL gameplay.
This is fair that it dilutes the userbase as people are in those modes because they are more fun for them. However, the hardcore players of these modes most likely aren't interested in 6v6 play with authentic rules. So, chances are good removing them wouldn't make as big an impact as it seems.
@RicochetII wrote:
3. Gameplay: NHL rules, physics, and player ability should be accurately represented.
The rules are more or less as expected in 6v6 (ignoring other game modes because the rules are often just made up or non-existent). There's room for improvement in the application of those rules (rather than just random chance when x and y occur). Perhaps we are not yet at a point technically where rules can be applied through an analysis of the physical interactions alone.
The physics themselves, as applied in game, create too many unrealistic situations. Solid objects passing through each other and pucks magnetized or otherwise influenced to remain in play are among the most egregious. Perhaps there are technical limitations involved here as well, but at the very least stick blades and pucks should be solid and have realistic interactions. "Pong" achieved that in 1972. There's no reason we can't have it in 2023.
With the stick and puck interactions resolved, other elements related to player abilities should be able to be resolved incrementally.
- Hitting interactions have been ramped up to market the game, but NHL players are more elusive and resilient than EA gives them credit for. They don't get rag dolled on legal body checks frequently and they don't stay down for more than a few seconds unless injured.
- Lacrosses and Hipchecks have been brought up continuously already and EA took some action, but it simply doesn't go far enough. You might see a hipcheck once a game (if that) and it's done with momentum against speed up the boards. Hitting is a skill and hip checks involve the most skill to pull off while requiring certain conditions to be present. The Lacrosse move has been successful maybe a handful of times and attempted maybe a few times a year. It also takes skill and a certain set of conditions, chief among those is an unaware goaltender and AI goaltenders should not be unaware unless those conditions are met. Having both of these as "one-touch" buttons completely ignores the skill aspect. They don't even require accurate setup or positioning.
- Generally speaking, every "flashy" but mostly realistic thing implemented in the game happens with exaggerated impact and/or frequency. While mundane things that very frequently happen in real life occur with less frequency. A player catching/intercepting a slapshot is rare (especially the catching part) and never as clean as the game represents. The puck deflecting over the glass on a shot happens a lot, but it slows down the game with more faceoffs, so it rarely happens.
.
This is a video game. Clipping is going to happen. As it does in most other games. Since we don't have 1:1 fidelity with the stick, exceptions need to be made. For example, sticks are allowed to pass through players and objects, but they can't affect the puck. This is to reduce the chances of player limbs bending in ways that would break them. We've seen this happen occasionally with 24 and it has not been well received. So, it kind of goes to show that added realism isn't always a popular feature. When it comes pong, you're talking about a single block interacting with a single "ball". 2 singular objects reacting. They aren't dealing with limbs being attached while also holding a stick while also potentially interacting with other objects of the same nature. Hockey is infinitely more complex than Pong.
Again, this is a video game. Hits might be over the top at times. There are also times they are very realistic. Regardless, the point of the game is to have fun. Yes, there are some purists that want the game to be a 1:1 recreation of the real sport, but from what I've seen, the more real the game gets, the less it's liked. There need to be player attributes for example that add assistance to shooting, passing, hitting, etc. When we made a change to this a few years back, it made the community pretty upset because it became harder to score and accurately pass. We also frequently get comments saying NHL 14 played better. Which is far more of an arcade style game than NHL 24 as the physics are more realistic than they were 10 years ago yet some that claim they want a full sim game would rather have one that was less sim than what we have now.
I'm in agreement with hipchecks and Lacrosse moves. I'd rather those return to the way they were. Thankfully, the Lacrosse goal is pretty uncommon and the move is easy to defend to begin with.
EA hasn't made it clear, at least to me, what exactly this game is supposed to be and who it is supposed to be for. Perhaps they don't even know themselves.
I'd appreciate it if they would present a clear direction, at least for next year if they can't now. I'm no longer going to dive into the current product blindly.
As mentioned, this game isn't meant to be a full sim, recreation of NHL hockey. It's meant to have aspects of that along with an atmosphere that make it fun. I don't think we'll ever have a game that gives you that feeling of stepping on the ice and putting professional hockey skills to the test. What we want is a fun game for friends as well as solo players that the truly skilled can become masters of. Whether that's EASHL, Online Vs/HUT or offline modes. We have a very diverse playerbase so not everyone wants a full sim experience.
Thanks again for the feedback. It's absolutely appreciated.
Just want to touch base with this thread as a hardcore base community player involved in numerous areas such as the Twitch community of EA NHL. Vast majority of clubs have disbanded from EASHL due to lack of authenticity. I get EA is trying to bring the younger generation but very little have interest. Hence why my nephew and his friend already uninstalled NHL 24 and went back to NHL 21. There just isn't much interest in arcade other than Eliminator and 3's modes. Keep 6's authentic and the population will be better, My club buddies already gave up yesterday since we spent 6 hours with cross-play on from 9pm finding a game. On a Friday/Saturday night we spent longer and got 2 games where we got errored out.
Majority of the " Hardcore population " has moved on to other games because NHL 24 just isn't a great overall experience. This is happening with HUT competitors also, even the top tier players are losing interest and it's showing not just in the game but in our Twitch community also.
I don't mind the direction but there needs to be balance between Arcade/Simulation otherwise the series is hooped! Hate to say it but this is exactly how it is right now. Drop-in has hardly a community anymore because none us want to play using the same 2 teams and hoodies in 6's. Like I mentioned in NHL 22/NHL 23 threads we need something better than this.
EA did lose focus of this games direction and what the final product should be. Instead of fixing the core gameplay, as the community keeps asking year after year, EA applies a band-aid. Too much focus is on the "new" or "casual" players that hardcore gamers are being pushed away. This game went from fairly decent simulation, to basically NHL Hitz 2023. I agree they definitely need a balance between arcade and simulation. Right now, those lines are very blurred with focus mainly on arcade. We asked for gameplay fixes, EA gave us more HUT and clothing options in the other modes. Their priorities are confusing. The took out one of the biggest attractions to sports games....presentation. Now, we have 1/4 of presentation where you can't even read the stats they display, and we get this convulsion "flashing" lights on face-offs. The goal celebrations are quicktime events and looks extremely arcade.
Each year I ask what can be done, or where should the sliders be set so the game plays according the the player ratings. This would give a us more true simulation because it's based off players, not the overwhelming (and most times not working) sliders. Response I usually get is "you adjust how you want the game to play", which never answers and avoids my question. If I want the game to play to player ratings, what should it be at...difficulty, etc. Simple. But therein lies the issue. This game shouldn't be that complicated....why do we have shooting sliders, but also have player shooting attributes. Adjustments to sliders can wash out the attributes, which in turn, eliminates a player's true ability. The fact this question about playing to player attributes seems to be so complicated, shows the major issues with this game. EA went too far down the rabbit hole and the game is spiraling the wrong way. I don't see them fixing anything unless it's a complete rebuild.
First I want to reiterate that I'm speaking from my own perspective. There may be others who want different things and I accept that.
WOC/EASHL with the arcade modes and alternative presentation are fine, on their own. The box doesn't say WOC however, it says NHL. As such, I don't believe it's unreasonable to expect the experience to be NHL-centric.
HUT I'll give a pass to. It's essentially an NHL card collecting game, but it still has NHL presentation.
BAP gets a pass for presentation as well as Franchise, but those modes seem like an afterthought with the attention given to them.
I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that the EASHL is the flagship of the series however, so why is NHL branding being used to market what is being described as a "fantasy league". I would be wrong to expect a fairly realistic representation of the NHL in an "EAGames - World of CHEL" product. That could be just about anything. This series however, is "EASports - NHL".
Again, I don't know if I'm in the majority, but I expect a 6v6 experience that is reasonably similar to the NHL. Club was close at one point and drop-in was still reasonable, but the "fantasy" elements are increasing and degrading the experience. You could avoid most of the outdoor play in "casual" attire in Club, but now we have things like Werewolves.
The hope from the playerbase was for the experience to improve with time and future iterations, but that doesn't appear to be the goal for EA.
The issue with other game modes isn't simply detracting from the playerbase. They are also taking away attention and resources from the primary game mode(s) before it has the refinement and population to warrant additions.
There's also a side effect of players "learning" arcade elements and then expecting those in "realistic" game modes. Regular 3v3 for example, develops players to play as individuals and gives them time and space. Then they go into 6v6 and they are unable to adapt to having less room or playing as a team, so they perform poorly and go back to 3v3.
This game is killing its own 6's playerbase by actively promoting bad teamplay and poor development of players.
The players aren't interested in authenticity because you make them feel "special" in diluted representations of the sport instead of emphasizing or promoting the knowledge and skills which will allow them to succeed in a realistic setting.
I don't think we necessarily are far apart on the technical/physics aspects. I realize it is more complicated than the "Pong" analogy to have everything function realistically without obstacles. My point was that paddles (sticks) and ball (puck) are the most rudimentary requirement. Get that right first, then build on top of it without destroying the fundamentals of using a stick to move a puck.
There are "cheats" in use that direct the puck, where the movement of the puck should be pure and it should be the sticks determining the direction and velocity, while everything else is modified or adjusted around it. If that means an arm clipping through a body, it is preferable to a stick clipping through a puck or a puck clipping through anything at all. An arm looking weird isn't ideal of course, but it doesn't affect the gameplay and make you feel "cheated" like an unexpected physical interaction with the puck does.
" I don't think we'll ever have a game that gives you that feeling of stepping on the ice and putting professional hockey skills to the test."
Perhaps not, but should that not be the goal? There should be a steady progression towards something, and that's kind of my point.
Which leads me back to, What is EA's goal? Where do they see this series heading?
To me, as long as it says NHL on the cover, it should be heading in a sim direction which is exactly what you describe, "The feeling of stepping on the ice and putting professional hockey skills to the test".
If they put CHEL on the cover with a stated goal of creating "The most entertaining hockey game" or similar, I'm perfectly okay with that as well.
People can make educated decisions in either direction, I'm only saying the direction should be clear.
Many are holding onto hope of getting that sim experience. If there's never going to be movement in that direction, be open about it.
There's a market for a sim game and there's a market for an arcade game, but you aren't going to please both with the same product and you don't have the playerbase to do each separately.
I hope that was clear and again, not intending to rant or complain.
I want one of two things:
1) EA works on improving the NHL presentation and realism
2) EA works on making a fun but not necessarily realistic hockey game
I'm good with either as long as I can make an informed decision and temper my expectations accordingly.
What I don't want is simply a muddled middle ground with no indication in either direction.
You can't even use the casual shirts, hoodies, etc that you buy for 6s drop in anyway...so I don't get why they are not bringing back NHL teams and arena for 6s drop in, it was SO much better and use the casual gears for One, Threes, and 3s, you can't go wrong with this, you still have a big use of the casual gears and outside rinks while satisfying the one that prefer NHL equipement and arena for 6s. It's neither all the way casual or NHL, you get both....sound logical that they would make more poeples happy that way. The best of both world!
@EA_Aljo wrote:Hey there, @RicochetII
Again, this is a video game. Hits might be over the top at times. There are also times they are very realistic. Regardless, the point of the game is to have fun. Yes, there are some purists that want the game to be a 1:1 recreation of the real sport, but from what I've seen, the more real the game gets, the less it's liked. There need to be player attributes for example that add assistance to shooting, passing, hitting, etc. When we made a change to this a few years back, it made the community pretty upset because it became harder to score and accurately pass. We also frequently get comments saying NHL 14 played better. Which is far more of an arcade style game than NHL 24 as the physics are more realistic than they were 10 years ago yet some that claim they want a full sim game would rather have one that was less sim than what we have now.
I'm in agreement with hipchecks and Lacrosse moves. I'd rather those return to the way they were. Thankfully, the Lacrosse goal is pretty uncommon and the move is easy to defend to begin with.
@EA_Aljo I think you are missing the point when we say NHL 14 played better. Yes, the physics are more realistic now, but the tuning and thus gameplay is far less realistic. Back in the NHL 14 days, both offense and defense had to be played fairly realistically to be successful. On offense you had to move the puck around to find the good shooting spots to be successful. On defense, solid positioning, taking away the passing and shooting lanes was rewarded. Nowadays, you have to play the "meta" to be successful, and it hardly resembles hockey. The game speed is way, way too high. Offense is way overpowered compared to defense. Shot accuracy and power are far too high, and forwards who lose the puck instantly regain control nine times out of ten. On defense, you're penalized far too highly for an ever so slightly mistimed poke (huge loss of speed) or ever so slightly misaimed hit (artificially pulled way out of position), and playing well positionally is penalized by the Pressure Meter and the lack of interceptions. It's become all cross-creases and "glitch goals"... it wasn't that way in NHL 14 days.
Edit: Forgot to mention: In NHL 23, the HUT Rush "Sim mode" that was introduced later in the year fixed many of the issues I describe. The game played far more realistically and most people loved it. Why didn't that become the normal tuning this year? The game would be far better and more "sim" if it had.
Unfortunately the game has been getting more and more arcade style every year. That’s what kids want which equates to higher revenues.
Also sad how all the woke “things” keep getting added into the game each year.
”@EA_Aljo I think you are missing the point when we say NHL 14 played better. Yes, the physics are more realistic now, but the tuning and thus gameplay is far less realistic. Back in the NHL 14 days, both offense and defense had to be played fairly realistically to be successful. On offense you had to move the puck around to find the good shooting spots to be successful. On defense, solid positioning, taking away the passing and shooting lanes was rewarded. Nowadays, you have to play the "meta" to be successful, and it hardly resembles hockey”
Well said 👌🏻I agree 100%
EA have weird visio and feels like they are just so lost and they dont even want to find back on track.
I hope that some other company start developing a NHL game in the future. Maybe EA will start to focus more on this game if there is some kind of competition.
Community Manager
@MikeyAU630 wrote:
@EA_Aljo wrote:
Hey there, @RicochetII
Again, this is a video game. Hits might be over the top at times. There are also times they are very realistic. Regardless, the point of the game is to have fun. Yes, there are some purists that want the game to be a 1:1 recreation of the real sport, but from what I've seen, the more real the game gets, the less it's liked. There need to be player attributes for example that add assistance to shooting, passing, hitting, etc. When we made a change to this a few years back, it made the community pretty upset because it became harder to score and accurately pass. We also frequently get comments saying NHL 14 played better. Which is far more of an arcade style game than NHL 24 as the physics are more realistic than they were 10 years ago yet some that claim they want a full sim game would rather have one that was less sim than what we have now.
I'm in agreement with hipchecks and Lacrosse moves. I'd rather those return to the way they were. Thankfully, the Lacrosse goal is pretty uncommon and the move is easy to defend to begin with.
@EA_Aljo I think you are missing the point when we say NHL 14 played better. Yes, the physics are more realistic now, but the tuning and thus gameplay is far less realistic. Back in the NHL 14 days, both offense and defense had to be played fairly realistically to be successful. On offense you had to move the puck around to find the good shooting spots to be successful. On defense, solid positioning, taking away the passing and shooting lanes was rewarded. Nowadays, you have to play the "meta" to be successful, and it hardly resembles hockey. The game speed is way, way too high. Offense is way overpowered compared to defense. Shot accuracy and power are far too high, and forwards who lose the puck instantly regain control nine times out of ten. On defense, you're penalized far too highly for an ever so slightly mistimed poke (huge loss of speed) or ever so slightly misaimed hit (artificially pulled way out of position), and playing well positionally is penalized by the Pressure Meter and the lack of interceptions. It's become all cross-creases and "glitch goals"... it wasn't that way in NHL 14 days.
Edit: Forgot to mention: In NHL 23, the HUT Rush "Sim mode" that was introduced later in the year fixed many of the issues I describe. The game played far more realistically and most people loved it. Why didn't that become the normal tuning this year? The game would be far better and more "sim" if it had.
I also really enjoyed the sim mode in HUT. It would have been nice to see that become the regular tuning. It also made a lot of people unhappy though. So, that's the thing, we have a very diverse audience of players. While there are many of us that want a more realistic game, that's not going to make everyone happy.
I know the team is aware of the feedback you're providing. Changes could be made in the future. The lack of interceptions has been a big one for sure. Pokes going back to the carrier has been mentioned many times as well. I'm on the fence with that one though. Normally, when that happens, it's because the carrier has better positioning and is traveling in the direction of the puck. The defender didn't make good enough contact to send the puck out of reach. Poke checking is my primary for of defense. I use the defensive skill stick a lot as well because I have a lot of success with sweeping the puck away. I'm not saying there are no issues though either. It would be good to make pokes work more consistently. I also hate the slow down from poking. That's very frustrating.
If I recall right, the biggest complaint about 14 was cross-crease goals. That was the go to way to score and you spent all game defending it. Passes still got through, but I really can't remember if it was any better/worse than we have now. It's been almost 10 years since I played that game, but I know cross-crease goals were extremely prevalent then.
Thanks for the continued, constructive feedback. It's most definitely appreciated.
I found that this year they listen to us and they move things a lot more compare of last year, And they don't have scare to make them move, I was the guy who were complaining about ea a lot.. and this year i found the ea team are a lot more closer to their community! A lot of work to do again into the game but i think we are on the good way.
Nobody plays hockey in jeans, they freeze in the cold. Nobody.
@EA_Aljo wrote:Hey there, @RicochetII
Thanks for all the feedback. I just want to comment on a few things.
@RicochetII wrote:1. Presentation: NHL uniforms, NHL equipment, NHL players, NHL arenas, etc.
In game (primarily in CHEL), those aspects are often completely ignored. Purposefully.
- Uniforms are discarded in favor of everything from hoodies to pajamas (or worse)
- Equipment gets the same treatment ignoring helmets/visors and including gloves, skates, and sticks with often silly designs
- Rinks that are a step below amateur in outdoor venues with none of the quality or atmosphere of an NHL arena
This isn't counting the alternate game modes which take some of these aspects even further.
WoC is a fantasy league. While NHL equipment is available, it's not required as this is the EASHL and not the NHL. The outdoor arena is meant to be a more casual environment where hoodies and jeans are more acceptable. Ones and Threes Eliminator are pure fantasy so you can have the casual, vanity gear. Again, these aren't NHL events.
2. Game Modes: NHL hockey is at it's core 6v6 on the ice, 5 skaters and 1 goaltender, with specific rules designed for the sport.
EA has introduced ones and threes "arcade" modes as well as the 3v3 watered-down version of NHL OT with its own set of rules.
These are secondary (or even inconsequential) to what is expected from an NHL series, which is 6v6 on-ice play with NHL rules, but they are given attention and dilute the userbase for what "should" be the primary focus. A robust and accurate representation of 6v6 NHL gameplay.
This is fair that it dilutes the userbase as people are in those modes because they are more fun for them. However, the hardcore players of these modes most likely aren't interested in 6v6 play with authentic rules. So, chances are good removing them wouldn't make as big an impact as it seems.
@RicochetII wrote:3. Gameplay: NHL rules, physics, and player ability should be accurately represented.
The rules are more or less as expected in 6v6 (ignoring other game modes because the rules are often just made up or non-existent). There's room for improvement in the application of those rules (rather than just random chance when x and y occur). Perhaps we are not yet at a point technically where rules can be applied through an analysis of the physical interactions alone.
The physics themselves, as applied in game, create too many unrealistic situations. Solid objects passing through each other and pucks magnetized or otherwise influenced to remain in play are among the most egregious. Perhaps there are technical limitations involved here as well, but at the very least stick blades and pucks should be solid and have realistic interactions. "Pong" achieved that in 1972. There's no reason we can't have it in 2023.
With the stick and puck interactions resolved, other elements related to player abilities should be able to be resolved incrementally.
- Hitting interactions have been ramped up to market the game, but NHL players are more elusive and resilient than EA gives them credit for. They don't get rag dolled on legal body checks frequently and they don't stay down for more than a few seconds unless injured.
- Lacrosses and Hipchecks have been brought up continuously already and EA took some action, but it simply doesn't go far enough. You might see a hipcheck once a game (if that) and it's done with momentum against speed up the boards. Hitting is a skill and hip checks involve the most skill to pull off while requiring certain conditions to be present. The Lacrosse move has been successful maybe a handful of times and attempted maybe a few times a year. It also takes skill and a certain set of conditions, chief among those is an unaware goaltender and AI goaltenders should not be unaware unless those conditions are met. Having both of these as "one-touch" buttons completely ignores the skill aspect. They don't even require accurate setup or positioning.
- Generally speaking, every "flashy" but mostly realistic thing implemented in the game happens with exaggerated impact and/or frequency. While mundane things that very frequently happen in real life occur with less frequency. A player catching/intercepting a slapshot is rare (especially the catching part) and never as clean as the game represents. The puck deflecting over the glass on a shot happens a lot, but it slows down the game with more faceoffs, so it rarely happens.
.
This is a video game. Clipping is going to happen. As it does in most other games. Since we don't have 1:1 fidelity with the stick, exceptions need to be made. For example, sticks are allowed to pass through players and objects, but they can't affect the puck. This is to reduce the chances of player limbs bending in ways that would break them. We've seen this happen occasionally with 24 and it has not been well received. So, it kind of goes to show that added realism isn't always a popular feature. When it comes pong, you're talking about a single block interacting with a single "ball". 2 singular objects reacting. They aren't dealing with limbs being attached while also holding a stick while also potentially interacting with other objects of the same nature. Hockey is infinitely more complex than Pong.
Again, this is a video game. Hits might be over the top at times. There are also times they are very realistic. Regardless, the point of the game is to have fun. Yes, there are some purists that want the game to be a 1:1 recreation of the real sport, but from what I've seen, the more real the game gets, the less it's liked. There need to be player attributes for example that add assistance to shooting, passing, hitting, etc. When we made a change to this a few years back, it made the community pretty upset because it became harder to score and accurately pass. We also frequently get comments saying NHL 14 played better. Which is far more of an arcade style game than NHL 24 as the physics are more realistic than they were 10 years ago yet some that claim they want a full sim game would rather have one that was less sim than what we have now.
I'm in agreement with hipchecks and Lacrosse moves. I'd rather those return to the way they were. Thankfully, the Lacrosse goal is pretty uncommon and the move is easy to defend to begin with.
EA hasn't made it clear, at least to me, what exactly this game is supposed to be and who it is supposed to be for. Perhaps they don't even know themselves.
I'd appreciate it if they would present a clear direction, at least for next year if they can't now. I'm no longer going to dive into the current product blindly.
As mentioned, this game isn't meant to be a full sim, recreation of NHL hockey. It's meant to have aspects of that along with an atmosphere that make it fun. I don't think we'll ever have a game that gives you that feeling of stepping on the ice and putting professional hockey skills to the test. What we want is a fun game for friends as well as solo players that the truly skilled can become masters of. Whether that's EASHL, Online Vs/HUT or offline modes. We have a very diverse playerbase so not everyone wants a full sim experience.
Thanks again for the feedback. It's absolutely appreciated.
Hockey is fun. I mean, its hockey. I will reiterate that hockey is fun. The hockey video game which should be an accessible representation of the sport to newer audiences should still flow like real hockey. there should still be some semblance of rudimentary hockey positioning, cycling, and a reward loop for getting shots off from dangerous spots on the ice. We dont have that right now. We have goalies that give up nothing organic until youve hit some magic quota of routine outshide shots or spinning in the corner long enough...again, nothing like hockey.
I dont think youd nearly get the amount of "full-sim" feedback if your "causal" game just flowed like the sport, but it doesnt. Hockey isnt high speed pong. It's not a game of endless rush play and adding a meter into the game to artificially encourage users to slow down by artifically rewarding terrible shots from playing slow it not hockey. And I dont agree that the "more real it gets, the less its liked" since NHL 14-Legacy were much more grounded in reality than 24 and I dont see a ton of feedback expressing how amazing 24 is, do you? What about 23? 22? 21? Every game since the frostbite change where defense was eliminated, where the AI were nerfed into being stationary cones for the HUT community, has been terribly unliked with poor reviews, so where was the "full-sim" game approach in the last 5 years? Genuinely asking, which game was it? ive played them all, which route was the one EA thought they put their best "full-sim" foot forward and failed? And also, why did said "full-sim" game fail? what was the specific feedback, feature, part of the game that fans complained about?
Were you hearing:
"I hate that I score from the middle of the slot without a predetermined path taken and side of the net shot at."
"I hate that low-speed checking is super effective and that I feel my body positiong matters on defense."
"I hate that screens are effective which provides a risk/reward to playing a passive gap"
"I hate that my dmen get involved in the offensive zone cycle"
"I hate that my teamamtes are screening the goalie"
"I hate that the goalies are really athletic and dont seem to give up the same shot over and over again"
"I hate I can score on a breakaway by just shooting."
"I hate that my AI teammate knew to support the puck on a 2-on-1 rather than skating to the corner."
"I hate that my teammates can stay onside."
"I hate the powerply is properly setting up and letting me make great passing plays rather than continuously changing positions and effectively killing my powerplay"
"I hate that my AI can properly forecheck which prevents my opponent from ragging the puck"
"I hate that the puck carrier is bound by the laws of physics which prevents him making 360 degree escapes at full speed and without losing speed to avoid hits."
I mean seriously, what year did we try full-sim hockey? What year did we even try "semi-sim" hockey with more grounded skating and AI that want the puck but still allowed for unlimited deking and puck handling essentially? I mean that'd my perfect expereince. Deking, stick handling, sniping goalies, you know the fun stuff of hockey being very accesisble with the skaitng and AI play/pressure to make doing the "cool" things hard to do. I don't want deking to be eliminated. I don't want snipes gone. But I do want the AI to setup a powerplay properly. Id love to see skating grounded in reality so proper angles can be taken on puck carriers. I'd love to see the AI actually move in the zone both on offense and defense in a way that would even semi-resemble what I can see on TV any given night. I'd love to see my team sellout to hold the zone when down in the game, with their goalie pulled, set to full attack and full pinch settings, I dont think thats me asking for "full sim," I think it's asking for common hockey sense to be respected. Does this sound unfun? Does this sound like me asking for bad ice and bobbling pucks for "no reason"?
But again, that entire last paragraph hasnt even been tried. We never came close to meeting any of those items listed above. So wheres the "full sim" comments coming from? When was that tried? And to this point since we're listing off modes for other demographcis, which mode is the "full-sim" mode? What year was there a "full-sim" mode tried and subsequently failed? Why does every other demographic get a mode, or get to advocate for the AI to be nerfed into cones, but the full-sim community gets nothing? The actual hockey fans are told "nobody likes your version of hockey, so we're not doing it" but the HUT community is told "You're right (insert streamer here) the AI does attack the puck too quickly for you get those sweet dangz in, we'll make the AI stand still and completely ruin the offline modes so that you dont have to deal with those pesky skill zoners who are forcing you to move the puck."
Can you give offliners and "semi-sim" mode where the AI attack the puck like they did in NHL 20, and the goalies are realistically beatable, the AI are programmed to play a modern in-zone cycle, modern man-to-man defense, advanced forechecking strategies, the awareness to apply full pressure when losing late with the goalie pulled, and there's no flashing box on the ice lettign you know you've achieved full pressure? Seems like a decent investment. It would clean up these "full-sim" complaints that continue to plague these boards...maybe even make an online vs playlist of said mode if we really want to get crazy!?
@Limp_KidzKit wrote:
@EA_Aljo wrote:Hey there, @RicochetII
Thanks for all the feedback. I just want to comment on a few things.
@RicochetII wrote:1. Presentation: NHL uniforms, NHL equipment, NHL players, NHL arenas, etc.
In game (primarily in CHEL), those aspects are often completely ignored. Purposefully.
- Uniforms are discarded in favor of everything from hoodies to pajamas (or worse)
- Equipment gets the same treatment ignoring helmets/visors and including gloves, skates, and sticks with often silly designs
- Rinks that are a step below amateur in outdoor venues with none of the quality or atmosphere of an NHL arena
This isn't counting the alternate game modes which take some of these aspects even further.
WoC is a fantasy league. While NHL equipment is available, it's not required as this is the EASHL and not the NHL. The outdoor arena is meant to be a more casual environment where hoodies and jeans are more acceptable. Ones and Threes Eliminator are pure fantasy so you can have the casual, vanity gear. Again, these aren't NHL events.
2. Game Modes: NHL hockey is at it's core 6v6 on the ice, 5 skaters and 1 goaltender, with specific rules designed for the sport.
EA has introduced ones and threes "arcade" modes as well as the 3v3 watered-down version of NHL OT with its own set of rules.
These are secondary (or even inconsequential) to what is expected from an NHL series, which is 6v6 on-ice play with NHL rules, but they are given attention and dilute the userbase for what "should" be the primary focus. A robust and accurate representation of 6v6 NHL gameplay.
This is fair that it dilutes the userbase as people are in those modes because they are more fun for them. However, the hardcore players of these modes most likely aren't interested in 6v6 play with authentic rules. So, chances are good removing them wouldn't make as big an impact as it seems.
@RicochetII wrote:3. Gameplay: NHL rules, physics, and player ability should be accurately represented.
The rules are more or less as expected in 6v6 (ignoring other game modes because the rules are often just made up or non-existent). There's room for improvement in the application of those rules (rather than just random chance when x and y occur). Perhaps we are not yet at a point technically where rules can be applied through an analysis of the physical interactions alone.
The physics themselves, as applied in game, create too many unrealistic situations. Solid objects passing through each other and pucks magnetized or otherwise influenced to remain in play are among the most egregious. Perhaps there are technical limitations involved here as well, but at the very least stick blades and pucks should be solid and have realistic interactions. "Pong" achieved that in 1972. There's no reason we can't have it in 2023.
With the stick and puck interactions resolved, other elements related to player abilities should be able to be resolved incrementally.
- Hitting interactions have been ramped up to market the game, but NHL players are more elusive and resilient than EA gives them credit for. They don't get rag dolled on legal body checks frequently and they don't stay down for more than a few seconds unless injured.
- Lacrosses and Hipchecks have been brought up continuously already and EA took some action, but it simply doesn't go far enough. You might see a hipcheck once a game (if that) and it's done with momentum against speed up the boards. Hitting is a skill and hip checks involve the most skill to pull off while requiring certain conditions to be present. The Lacrosse move has been successful maybe a handful of times and attempted maybe a few times a year. It also takes skill and a certain set of conditions, chief among those is an unaware goaltender and AI goaltenders should not be unaware unless those conditions are met. Having both of these as "one-touch" buttons completely ignores the skill aspect. They don't even require accurate setup or positioning.
- Generally speaking, every "flashy" but mostly realistic thing implemented in the game happens with exaggerated impact and/or frequency. While mundane things that very frequently happen in real life occur with less frequency. A player catching/intercepting a slapshot is rare (especially the catching part) and never as clean as the game represents. The puck deflecting over the glass on a shot happens a lot, but it slows down the game with more faceoffs, so it rarely happens.
.
This is a video game. Clipping is going to happen. As it does in most other games. Since we don't have 1:1 fidelity with the stick, exceptions need to be made. For example, sticks are allowed to pass through players and objects, but they can't affect the puck. This is to reduce the chances of player limbs bending in ways that would break them. We've seen this happen occasionally with 24 and it has not been well received. So, it kind of goes to show that added realism isn't always a popular feature. When it comes pong, you're talking about a single block interacting with a single "ball". 2 singular objects reacting. They aren't dealing with limbs being attached while also holding a stick while also potentially interacting with other objects of the same nature. Hockey is infinitely more complex than Pong.
Again, this is a video game. Hits might be over the top at times. There are also times they are very realistic. Regardless, the point of the game is to have fun. Yes, there are some purists that want the game to be a 1:1 recreation of the real sport, but from what I've seen, the more real the game gets, the less it's liked. There need to be player attributes for example that add assistance to shooting, passing, hitting, etc. When we made a change to this a few years back, it made the community pretty upset because it became harder to score and accurately pass. We also frequently get comments saying NHL 14 played better. Which is far more of an arcade style game than NHL 24 as the physics are more realistic than they were 10 years ago yet some that claim they want a full sim game would rather have one that was less sim than what we have now.
I'm in agreement with hipchecks and Lacrosse moves. I'd rather those return to the way they were. Thankfully, the Lacrosse goal is pretty uncommon and the move is easy to defend to begin with.
EA hasn't made it clear, at least to me, what exactly this game is supposed to be and who it is supposed to be for. Perhaps they don't even know themselves.
I'd appreciate it if they would present a clear direction, at least for next year if they can't now. I'm no longer going to dive into the current product blindly.
As mentioned, this game isn't meant to be a full sim, recreation of NHL hockey. It's meant to have aspects of that along with an atmosphere that make it fun. I don't think we'll ever have a game that gives you that feeling of stepping on the ice and putting professional hockey skills to the test. What we want is a fun game for friends as well as solo players that the truly skilled can become masters of. Whether that's EASHL, Online Vs/HUT or offline modes. We have a very diverse playerbase so not everyone wants a full sim experience.
Thanks again for the feedback. It's absolutely appreciated.
Hockey is fun. I mean, its hockey. I will reiterate that hockey is fun. The hockey video game which should be an accessible representation of the sport to newer audiences should still flow like real hockey. there should still be some semblance of rudimentary hockey positioning, cycling, and a reward loop for getting shots off from dangerous spots on the ice. We dont have that right now. We have goalies that give up nothing organic until youve hit some magic quota of routine outshide shots or spinning in the corner long enough...again, nothing like hockey.
I dont think youd nearly get the amount of "full-sim" feedback if your "causal" game just flowed like the sport, but it doesnt. Hockey isnt high speed pong. It's not a game of endless rush play and adding a meter into the game to artificially encourage users to slow down by artifically rewarding terrible shots from playing slow it not hockey. And I dont agree that the "more real it gets, the less its liked" since NHL 14-Legacy were much more grounded in reality than 24 and I dont see a ton of feedback expressing how amazing 24 is, do you? What about 23? 22? 21? Every game since the frostbite change where defense was eliminated, where the AI were nerfed into being stationary cones for the HUT community, has been terribly unliked with poor reviews, so where was the "full-sim" game approach in the last 5 years? Genuinely asking, which game was it? ive played them all, which route was the one EA thought they put their best "full-sim" foot forward and failed? And also, why did said "full-sim" game fail? what was the specific feedback, feature, part of the game that fans complained about?
Were you hearing:
"I hate that I score from the middle of the slot without a predetermined path taken and side of the net shot at."
"I hate that low-speed checking is super effective and that I feel my body positiong matters on defense."
"I hate that screens are effective which provides a risk/reward to playing a passive gap"
"I hate that my dmen get involved in the offensive zone cycle"
"I hate that my teamamtes are screening the goalie"
"I hate that the goalies are really athletic and dont seem to give up the same shot over and over again"
"I hate I can score on a breakaway by just shooting."
"I hate that my AI teammate knew to support the puck on a 2-on-1 rather than skating to the corner."
"I hate that my teammates can stay onside."
"I hate the powerply is properly setting up and letting me make great passing plays rather than continuously changing positions and effectively killing my powerplay"
"I hate that my AI can properly forecheck which prevents my opponent from ragging the puck"
"I hate that the puck carrier is bound by the laws of physics which prevents him making 360 degree escapes at full speed and without losing speed to avoid hits."
I mean seriously, what year did we try full-sim hockey? What year did we even try "semi-sim" hockey with more grounded skating and AI that want the puck but still allowed for unlimited deking and puck handling essentially? I mean that'd my perfect expereince. Deking, stick handling, sniping goalies, you know the fun stuff of hockey being very accesisble with the skaitng and AI play/pressure to make doing the "cool" things hard to do. I don't want deking to be eliminated. I don't want snipes gone. But I do want the AI to setup a powerplay properly. Id love to see skating grounded in reality so proper angles can be taken on puck carriers. I'd love to see the AI actually move in the zone both on offense and defense in a way that would even semi-resemble what I can see on TV any given night. I'd love to see my team sellout to hold the zone when down in the game, with their goalie pulled, set to full attack and full pinch settings, I dont think thats me asking for "full sim," I think it's asking for common hockey sense to be respected. Does this sound unfun? Does this sound like me asking for bad ice and bobbling pucks for "no reason"?
But again, that entire last paragraph hasnt even been tried. We never came close to meeting any of those items listed above. So wheres the "full sim" comments coming from? When was that tried? And to this point since we're listing off modes for other demographcis, which mode is the "full-sim" mode? What year was there a "full-sim" mode tried and subsequently failed? Why does every other demographic get a mode, or get to advocate for the AI to be nerfed into cones, but the full-sim community gets nothing? The actual hockey fans are told "nobody likes your version of hockey, so we're not doing it" but the HUT community is told "You're right (insert streamer here) the AI does attack the puck too quickly for you get those sweet dangz in, we'll make the AI stand still and completely ruin the offline modes so that you dont have to deal with those pesky skill zoners who are forcing you to move the puck."
Can you give offliners and "semi-sim" mode where the AI attack the puck like they did in NHL 20, and the goalies are realistically beatable, the AI are programmed to play a modern in-zone cycle, modern man-to-man defense, advanced forechecking strategies, the awareness to apply full pressure when losing late with the goalie pulled, and there's no flashing box on the ice lettign you know you've achieved full pressure? Seems like a decent investment. It would clean up these "full-sim" complaints that continue to plague these boards...maybe even make an online vs playlist of said mode if we really want to get crazy!?
Honestly, EA should just tape this post to the wall and leave it there while they work on NHL 25. I cannot possibly agree with this more. This plus the presentation elements that were all taken away from us would make this the perfect game, or as close to it as you can realistically get.
