Could very be that the way i interpret the class wrong, or that i see people not using the system as it meant to be (which would mean the class system is wrong). But you can't say that i'm just subjective and your vision is objective ^^. And i really dont get neither why people quote BF4 every time like if it was the god reference. But saying that the specialists are here for teamplay can't let you say that.
Altho we are on the same page, there is a massive lack of cohesion, cooperation and so aka teamplay. But does the specialist and new class system do anything to improve that ? Did it kept the same level of teamplay as previous system ?
I agree that the specialist (at least some) provide benefit to the team. Falck and Angel reviving. And Paik and Caper doubling down as Recon. The other are much more self-centered. You see Sundance you know she has more grenade and can fly, cool. And ? Mackay can hook, cool, the dude will climb to camp from above etc ...
But the biggest problem is that by making sooo many specialists (10 !!) that can do a little everything, people consider it's enough and don't fulfil their role entirely. Taking gadget that don't complement their role or even forgeting the purpose of a role because they just see supposed cool character. They can drop an amo plates so it's enough, No, because real amo crearte stay and benefit everybody, Angel just pretty much everytime drop a few amo for himself that's all. Falk will revive and SOMETIMES pistol heal great, but wont drop a real medic crate in the middle of the group. Or drop medic crate but can't revive cause wrong specialist etc etc etc ...
It's small details, small nuances, but that in the end make a huge difference. You said yourself, previous system was more simple. This new one is so "complex" / messy that no that many people really fulfil properly a job. Making the gameplay by consequence less teamplay. So as we said at the beginning there is a lack of cohesion, given the circumstances how do you expect squad to interact between each other if they dont have internal cohesion ????
I saw your videos, same thing happen, when you are in voice with your friend there is some cohesion, otherwise teamplay is gone within the squad. You can't tell me that this new system is so great.
I'll say it again, those specialists are nothing but a supposed "cool" stuff that belong to hollywood movie or COD or BattleRoyal. And it's obvious that it's been made with this approach, hey let's make this character, and this one, and this one, annnd thise one, it will be coooool, and this outfit, and it can fly and it can .... no, sorry no. It completely diluted the notion of role.
@VRACinqueWell , i will try to respond as well as possible in the best of my capacity to let you understand how i view this and why i would claim that there is subjectivity base on certain parametres . And defining those parametres first would allow us to judge what is and what is not subjective .
First of all everyones in this so call " community " see a different BF as the " Gold standard " and because of this it will be a irreconciable community because no ones is ever happy .. Exemple : those who see Bad company 2 as the gold standard of " destruction " and BF should be all about destruction . Neglecting how some peoples only got farmed on wastedlands with no more covers anywhere and didnt found this experience " fun " ..
Second of all to determine if you are Objective or Subjective it depends on the topic .. If its a matters of " taste " then its always subjective .. If i say i prefer BF2042 because its " fun " its subjective . If you say i prefer classes system because it resonate with me its base on feelings emotions so its subjective etc.. if you follow me .. So i can be subjective and if i am i will have no problems saying it .. I really like Black and red stuff i also like blue and yellow i am not a fan of pastel color , I like the Unreal tournament franchise etc.. thats all base on taste and isnt objective ..
Thats said if i say something improove or harm teamplay then i have to justified it without neglecting counter points .. ill give you exemples
The premise or claim is " The specialist system and loadout system improove team cohesion and teamplay "
The you ask why is that ? Then i proceed to give you exemple that are logical and verifiable .. X and Y players can take X and Y weapons and X and Y gadjets and X and Y specialist to furfill a specific role whithin a squad being able to adapt to terrain types , range , and devices needed to furfill x and y goals ..etc..
Then you tell me The classes system is better because it prevent players from using x and Y type of weapons or gadjets or combinaison of the 2 . therfor could " Force " some players to play in team against their will ..
Its all depends on the premise and how you bring it .
And here is the catch ... If you pretend limiting X and Y weapons to X and Y classes is better because it " force teamplay or so call rock paper scissor "
Then the same will be true without the classes system If you take " Boris with a SMG and a Rocket launcher .. While Boris is alive if a tank come by he can react to it and start shooting at it but if the tank is to close he dosnt have the C4 the other person with a different loadout had right ?
So this so call " rock ppaper scissor " thing exist all the same depending on your loadout choices ..
If we pretend the classes system is more predictable once again unless you have a BF with Zero classes custumisation there was no 100% predictable anything ...
With specialist they are predictable .. you know or should know exactly what each specialist are capable of beside their second gadjet and weapon of choices ...
Unless a classes system had 2 fix gadjet and a single weapons you cant predict anything .. a F2000 and a Ak47 are insanely different guns .. one would shred you at CQC medium range the other wont so there was always elements of suprise ..
And in BF4 this was to the roofs because the 2 gadjet slots were custumizable so suppport without amo and medic without defib and med bag was a common thing ... beside Premade team or squads ..
But even forgeting BF4 ever existed , The same thing peoples claim dosnt exist in BF2042 does exist .. the balance between Smgs and Snipers is the same .. the variety of guns peoples use is about the same as previous BF ... the choice players make will affect their ability to react .. If you take Mckay youll be able to flank . but unable to rocket if you take meds or enable to repair if you take c5 and unable to fly like sundance and reach long distance and so on ..
Also there is a restrictive component in BF2042 you can no longer magically switch to another classes by picking it up on the ground when you pick a weapon its a weapon ...
Then complains may come about Angel " loadout drop " or Falk ability to heal and have another gadjet .. but the reality is her healing gadjet is a locked gadjet wich promote predictability .. If you see a Falk its 100% sure she heal .. If you see an Angel its 100% sure he can resuply and plate ..
As for " Purpose of the roles "
Sundance = Flank deep behind ennemy lines , crowd controle clusters + disabling vehicles or soldier Ui with pulse EMP
Mckay = Similar to planetside 2 light assault MCkay is the pure verticality soldier who can reach behind ennemy in high rise capable to suprise ennemy but also take vantage point over them ..
Boris = Hold position disturbe ennemy frontlines pushes
Irish = Fortify and disable ennemy explosive spam etc..
Thats their primary roles .. The the second gadjet is buisness as usual with the old classes system choices .. C5 trap players or vehicles close range . Rocket kill helis or tanks + vehicles etc.. Med box heal yourself and team mates . Amo box resuply yourself and team mates
But Amo box and Med boxs are weaker than Angel and Falk healing and amo because Amo box resuply rocket 1 tick every 40 seconds not sure the exact time lol but feel like eternity .. same for meds while Angel loadout box can resuply amo at full in 1 resuply with help tremendously when facing a vehicles spam ..
And so on and on ..
Not sure wich video you have watch .. some videos are full squads some video are only 1 or 2 friends some others are me alone with randoms .. And with such tiny players lobby 4 only .. it will be hard to really strategise when we have 1 person in a land vehicles while the other two are in Air buisness etc..
Let say here we are 3 with 1 random we stick in a HIND and dominate the air space what would you expect more ? While on some other match i could be in a Night bird dropping my friends here and there trying to win this game but being not more than 1/16 of the team make things difficult sometime when your team is terrible at times lol ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQSAnEUD5gk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQSAnEUD5gk
To finish Specialist core design have nothing to do with " COD " per say ./.. But i would say i dont like most specialist faces etc.. I dont like the corny lines .. i dont like the Amazon twitch skin purple thing .. I dont like anything like that .. But i know for a fact that the system itself is really good and might have not being bashed as much if it wasnt for those Corny one liners and silly trendy haircuts and so on and all those were faceless soldiers with full face mask on ..
This is a story that never ends. What could be a compromise if we were to have 4 classes with far greater flexibility. Just a talk from a theoretical point of view. Would it be possible so both parties would be satisfied. After all, everyone wants a good BF. I do.
@Stew360 you're stuck in this idea of forcing class based on weapon. Such as class X have weapon A & B only, then class Y have weapon C & D etc... (which is halfway true, halfway false. Some weapons were forced to some class, but a vast majority were also fully shared). And as it's been said multiple times indeed a more deep choice of your weapons is a very valid point that BF2042 (try but failed imo) to bring.
But again, this is not the point, i'm referring to the core logic behind the old vs new class system.
Let's try a different approach to explain. In combat environment & spirit such as the one BF propose, where you need to progress through a battlefield, or hold a position in a battlefield. You need some roles in the team. Which from legacy and logic are the following, and they still very valid :
- Someone to rain fire on the enemy, suppress the enemy, hold a position
==> BF decided that this guy will be the SUPPORT. How, by giving him weapons that allow him to rain fire. As he will shoot a lot, he can also drop amo crate for himself, and by consequences by dropping crate that will stay, for the team around him. Now indeed won't always choose the amo crate as one of the two gadgets. Altho most people usually do, but even the other gadget are fitting the notion of holding a position, being the claymore etc ... It still had this logic of he is here to support.
As the whole class was designed around this logic, it was impacting the gameplay of people using it. The same way you use an object the way it's designed to be used. With of course a margin of liberty.
- Someone to push foward and open the way. Able to rain fire enough to progress between two positions to hold
==> Role also given to the SUPPORT, and it still work. As he can also grab an assault rifle. And bringing with him along foward amo for everybody also completely make sense.
- Someone to follow & help & push the progress while healing the team.
==> BF decided that it was the ASSAULT, mostly renamed MEDIC by the commu. Giving him enough power to follow the front while able to both drop medic crate and revive people. Now indeed they could grab something else and only have one of the two heal gadget. But still he was able to help with the heal, and even for exemple the grenade launching with his smoke was a tool to help progress while avoiding taking damage (mostly the smoke grenade).
Once again, the class logic was entirely designer around this role, to encourage a specific usage
PS : previously swapped between ASSAULT and SUPPORT, the logic still worked, imo not sure which way around was working better. But they both work.
- Someone to protect against vehicle / help vehicle
==> BF decided that it was the ENGINEER. Once again, he has the fire power such as assault rifle to follow the front, while equiped to take down & / or repair vehicle, while carrying and RPG and repair gadget or any other tool still related to take care of vehicle, such as mines etc ...
Once again, entire class built around this logic, so impact player gameplay
- Finally someone to cover from far or infiltrate
==> Given to the SNIPER. Altho here there is a flaw, if it has all the tool to cover from far, it didnt had the weapon to infiltrate, such as an assault rifle or SMG. But would be an easy fix, just giving him a few of those weapons available (i think BF4 did it ?). And again, the gadget are all fully addapted.
Conclusion is, no matter what you were doing, as each class was entirely designed to fit it specific ROLE, no matter what you were doing you still had with you a COMPLETE set dedicated to this ROLE. And so by consequence you also knew what to expect when you see one of the four. Crystal clear and predictable.
Plus "only" four roles, but roles that combined can cover all the needs, do everything. Four roles, four people per squad ... you see what i mean. That's the whole logic.
(Now indeed based on people behavior of course some might not give a *, so the way they use their role could reduce the teamplay effect, but it will still have a little as they were designed around the roles)
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Now let's take the specialist. First of all, 10 specialists. Which means that even IF each specialist could bring something crucial to the team, 2 squads would not even be enough to cover all the needs. And a single squad if not in constant coop with another one, would be barely able to do anything. Cohesion within a squad is already poor, so cohesion between two squad atm is nothing but a unreachable dream. Now let's see are those specialists really bringing anything crucial ? Let's remember that behind the (imo, dumb) visual and fancy names as well as title "Specialist", those are nothing but forced Gadget slot 1.
- IRISH, build fortification is that really that important ? There are so many covers everywhere, is placing on the ground a new one really that vital ? Someone a minimum smart can easly find a path that give at least a cover every 10m max. So does it bring really anything to the team ?
- MACKAY, hook himself to a high ground. Other than allowing people to go camp high, it doesn't really bring anything crucial to the team. This is one of the most self-centered specialist imo
- FALCK, definitely hell of a useful one. Heal and revive. This is a pure MEDIC, that combine revive and health
- BORIS, automatic turret. Not sure what to think, this turret barely kill, but quite useful to spot enemy, altho only the owner benefit of the spotting. Half self-centered half recon ?
- CASPER, definitely a useful one too, that's a pure RECON
- NAVIN, so barely used don't know what to think. If used smartly could be useful against vehicle like a ENGINEER but people underestimate him so much, they don't use it.
- DOZER, don't really know what to think, i see him so barely used (his gadget). People really don't get his potential
- SUNDANCE, can fly. Cool trick but what does it bring to the team ? Kinda like MACKEY
- ANGEL, imo the amo plate isn't as good as the crate but still a very usefull dude. Definitely the SUPPORT. Combined MEDIC
- PAIK, only itself fully benefit of his trick, half recon half self-centered ?
So now we can establish the first massive problem. With only 3 to 4 specialists really useful to the teamplay, there is a massive probability that members of your squad will have non teamplay characters. Making one of the gadget gone.
Now to the second problem (linked) to the first one. With so many characters, called by names, with "fancy" outfit (to make you think they are movie characters ?) among them with so many non teamplay specs. It completely dilute the notion of role. Lost in a blurry of fancy, and cool trick, which is quite visible. People don't pick anymore a role, they pick a character. To do their own personal stuff.
Finally and once again linked with the previous problem. As the notion of role is getting diluted, and as no matter what specialist you have you can take any gadget you want : It finish to burry deep down in the ground the role. People don't pick a set anymore to fulfil a role. They pick what they want at the t time. To mind their own business.
Now some still take the time to rebuild role class, those are people that at core no matter what, are full team/roleplay. But they're far from the majority. If you add to that the fact that even in the old class system, where role were "forced" as we said some people would still don't give a crap. Now in the middle of this mess, teamplay is gone for good. When you see a specialist, beside the fact that majority of them have nothing to bring to you, the FEW that could it's completely unsure if they have in mind the notion of role, if they will help you.
So i'll said it again, if you like so much this new system, good for you. But it's FALSE to say that this help teamplay, this new system did hurted it real bad.
PS : you exemple of teamplay even show it, you could only show a video of a vehicle used as group, which has nothing to do with role / class.
@VRACinque He won't admit that. He will just say something about combined arms / teamplay / MAG / anectdotal evidence and that you are completely wrong. Yet in his super duper teamplay video, he and his abusive squad just farmed the crap out of the enemy team with a completely overpowered and bad designed vehicle on a bad designed map. Also funny, that his team lost, because what he was doing was not beneficial for his team at all.
