Forum Discussion

Hero

4 years ago

Solved

"Specialists" don't belong - Change my mind

I posted this in another thread but I think it warrants it's own thread.

Classes aren't as much about "restricting choices" as much as bringing back some sort of structure to the game.

Classes are a core component of Battlefield games going back to the BF1942. There has always been a trade-offs as others have pointed out. Good, bad or ugly it's a concept that has stood the test of time.

My personal issue with the specialists are the ridiculous abilities tied to the design, e.g.

Sundance ability to climb atop a 10' tall conex box and "glide/fly" 300yds, I mean what's the next evolution of specialists Superman? Not to mention crashing into the ground at mach 2 with minimal to no damage.

Mackay zipline/grapple hook that has a ridiculously short cool down, that is eerily reminiscent of Spiderman.

Dozer "magical impenetrable shield" which is somehow allows a single soldier to absorb a TANK round?

Irish "magical shield wall" = see above and he can carry two of these things around with him?

Boris wall hacking auto-gun who thought this was a good idea?

Casper this one doesn't bother me much as it's pretty close to the classic recon role, other than I hate mini-map spotting in general.

Rao meh. I'm ambivalent to this one as I just don't see it impacting gameplay much.

Paik the ability to wall-hack built INTO the game, yeah I just don't even get this. With all the other crap in this game giving away your position (stealth is virtually non-existent) do we really need a specialist with an ability universally considered cheating not so long ago?

Falck again not too many issues with this one as it seems to fall pretty close into the traditional medic role.

Angel ahh yes BF2042's super-soldier with unlimited supply of well... everything depending on your preset loadouts, nope just nope.

I was expecting and it seems a large number of the the community was expecting an upgraded/updated version of BF4 and we got some kind of bastardized COD/Fortnite/Apex abomination.

discussion

Twordy
4 years ago
The main problem with specialists is that they tend to be almost everything like Angel. Or succeed individually at flanking the enemies.
There is a reason for Command structure with Squad formations in modern militaries. Usually, I find Rifleman, Rifleman (Grenadier) with a grenade launcher, Automatic Rifleman with LMG, Marksman with Sniper/DMR. Some Squads include Medic, Grenadier (Anti Tank), Ammo handlers (usually Riflemans). Being the universal soldier is helpful for every single individual. Specialist limits the number of equipment, its quantity too. For example, fewer rockets to equip and no secondary equipment compared to previous Battlefields. Instead, players receive a Specialist gadget that is usually highly individualistic. This change, for some, may seem only cosmetic or viewed as a black or white color dilemma. But this design approach changes the dynamics of the match. Not to mention how the map design with 128 players change the dynamics of CQ. The sprint button has never been as important in a Battlefield game as before.
In the game mode called Gun Master, which was greatly popularized by CoD devs, there is no need for classes. I have no idea why this should not be the example and the case for TDM, SQTDM, Domination, and many other solely Infantry-based game modes. The medic class is the ultimate meta since at least 2005. Why there should ever be Classes or Specialists with no suitable sort of abilities in such casual game modes. Domination might be easily turned into a competitive mode with proper level design and setup.
Battlefield has never been a military simulator, let`s make that clear. Battlefield has succeeded in the introduction of the Conquest mode. A game mode that is deeply rooted in the division of combat roles similarly to modern militaries. Every squad is built upon combat roles, operators, prime objectives. This approach is not present in BF2042 and is strictly optional. Squad divisions with their respective roles helped players to find a meaningful way to play the game. Weapon type, side equipment was extremely intuitional, players could subconsciously adapt their playstyle. Players derived more gratification from being useful in times of crisis not because of their aiming skills. That is the beauty of the game in previous Battlefields, especially in BF2. Battlefield is a highly tactical arcade game, especially in Conquest mode. BF2 spawned such titles as Project Reality, Squad and these games are closer to mil-sim.
BF2042 has a completely different approach and I would quarrel whether this benefits Conquest mode even as a concept. To me, Conquest falls apart without organized Squads with combat roles. Without pre-determined classes, Conquest as a concept feels shallow. In addition, there is a complete absence of Squad Management. Servers are not being run by the communities. Battlefield just falls apart and becomes more individualistic.
I would give any money to witness Conquest mode with 7 or 11 classes. Rifleman, Medic, Support, Engineer, Anti-Tank, Sniper, Spec-Ops, Paratrooper, Recon and possibly Mercenary and Insurgent spin-off operators with respective equipment and combat approach than what is currently present in 2042. Vehicles deployed for a specific theatre of war as it used to be and is not apparent for the devs nowadays. Right now instead "Battlefield is back baby" slogan, I may witness "bad jokes on us players" as the main motto.

25 Replies

Psubond
Legend
4 years ago
@Ironhead841 belong or not isnt the issue. To get rid of them requires a game redesign and getting rid of skins that people unlocked. Have fun selling that to EA
Noodlesocks
4 years ago
Honestly I have noticed little tangible difference in how the game feels to play.
I get it, a well designed class system would absolutely be much better but simply having classes doesn't itself make it better. Take Battlefield 4 for example. A game that for a lot of people is considered the standard for Battlefield but the class system in that game is designed so poorly that pretty much every server and their admins have to restrict what weapons people can use. Can you imagine Battlefield 4 now with no community run servers and no admins to force good balance?
Not to mention that Dice Sweden has been diluting the necessity for class and team play for many years and over many games to the point where they could implement a perfectly balanced class system into 2042 and it probably would not improve anything. The class system never really helped me get ammo from support players when I needed it. Repairs from engineers. Health from medics. It has never helped me relay important information to my teammates right next to me about the enemy or get my squad to diversify our classes to maximise efficiency and work together.
The problem is that over time, the core design of Battlefield has withered and become rotten. The discussion the community is having shouldn't be about whether specialists belong because the core design at the heart of the franchise has gotten to the point where the most fundamental aspects of multiplayer gaming simply does not exist any more. They have been actively designed out of Battlefield over the course of several games.
I'm not going to say specialists don't belong in 2042 because honestly I haven't noticed any particular difference from their inclusion. That itself I consider a pretty sad indication of what Battlefield has become over the years. What I will say is that the game and the franchise needs to be completely broken down and redesigned from the ground up with fundamental multiplayer game design as the core focus instead of whatever silly gimmick Dice Sweden feels like focusing on this year.
DrunkwoIf
4 years ago
they arnt going anywhere, all we can do is hope they learn from this and dont put them in future games.
AuramiteX
Seasoned Veteran
4 years ago
We can't change your mind because you are absolutely correct.
EA better re-design the game fast, whilst refunding players in the process.
The current game is a failure. If you can't take the actions needed to save it then let it die and give people their money back.
Skill4Reel
4 years ago
@Ironhead841 wrote:
Classes aren't as much about "restricting choices" as much as bringing back some sort of structure to the game.
Classes are a core component of Battlefield games going back to the BF1942. There has always been a trade-offs as others have pointed out. Good, bad or ugly it's a concept that has stood the test of time.
I've played lots of Battlefield before Battlefield 2042 and I have rarely seen any "structure" in random matches with mostly solo players. So why would I bother trying to convince you that Specialists belong in the game when decades of messy unbalanced matches with the class system in place still hasn't proven to you that it doesn't matter either way. When there are decent players on both teams that want to use teamwork and play to win, it will always be an enjoyable Battlefield experience regardless of the class system or Specialists.
AuramiteX
Seasoned Veteran
4 years ago
Nah. The traditional classes encouraged team work far more.
That's not to say it always happened.
-DFA-Thump
4 years ago
Specialist are such a great idea that they didn't make it in their upcoming mobile Battlefield.
Ironhead841
Hero
4 years ago
@Skill4Reel wrote:
@Ironhead841 wrote:
Classes aren't as much about "restricting choices" as much as bringing back some sort of structure to the game.
Classes are a core component of Battlefield games going back to the BF1942. There has always been a trade-offs as others have pointed out. Good, bad or ugly it's a concept that has stood the test of time.
I've played lots of Battlefield before Battlefield 2042 and I have rarely seen any "structure" in random matches with mostly solo players. So why would I bother trying to convince you that Specialists belong in the game when decades of messy unbalanced matches with the class system in place still hasn't proven to you that it doesn't matter either way. When there are decent players on both teams that want to use teamwork and play to win, it will always be an enjoyable Battlefield experience regardless of the class system or Specialists.
I've played since BF1942 my sons actually got me started down this BF rabbit hole and I'll grant you that lone-wolves are gonna lone-wolf.
Where specialists miss the mark in my opinion it just breaks from that classic BF feel. Used to be you could tell what side a player was just by the look of the uniform. You could tell what class it was which influenced gameplay and deepened the immersion. You knew just by looking at say someone playing assault that playing as an engineer you probably couldn't go toe-to-toe with him and expect to win that gunfight. It changed your tactics, see what I mean? Can you imagine playing a hardcore mode with the current setup? Teamkill galore because every single character looks alike.
But honestly above all else it is the ridiculous "abilities" attributed to the specialists that just kills me as I went into detail already above.
Flying squirrels, spidermen, magical abilities and ESP just wasn't what I was expecting in a BF game. Hell BF2142 which supposedly takes place a 100 years after 2042 didn't have any of this stuff.
Ironhead841
Hero
4 years ago
@Psubond wrote:
@Ironhead841belong or not isnt the issue. To get rid of them requires a game redesign and getting rid of skins that people unlocked. Have fun selling that to EA
With the current state of the game that may not be the worst idea.
The thing that really kills me is that they had a pretty easy roadmap to follow along the lines of BF2, BF3, BF4 but opted for this mess?
Lancelot_du_Lac
Seasoned Ace
4 years ago
@Ironhead841 My guess is that roadmap didn’t lead to the sales results that EA were looking for. All the communication from EA would point to a shift to BR-style game to tap into the huge potential audiences that Fortnite/Apex enjoy.
IMHO, EA will lose faith that the BF franchise can ever be a ‘blockbuster’ game. Therefore, any significant support/development will shift to those franchises that can deliver it.
At this stage, I fear that the ‘traditional’ BF player base will be seen as niche, an of no real interest to major games publishers.