What is the fascination with classes?

@Psubond 

So you finally admit they are objectively bad.

Now we can move on.

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@AuramiteX wrote:

@Psubond 

So you finally admit they are objectively bad.

Now we can move on.

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no, i did not admit that.  good try though.  read my OP.  i am talking about flexibility of loadouts.

@Psubond 

more flexibility in loadouts does not make something objectively better.

I AGREE there is more flexibility. But it's worse for this particular game.

So, more flexibility is a subjective matter. But the design and implementation of the specialists is Objectively bad.

Hence, they are objectively worse.

@PsubondIt is to much flexibility.

An angel (a support specialist) near to Mackay clearly outplay every other specialist in term of gunfights

Why ?

Becouse he has Unlimited Ammo, Unlimited Amor, Unlimited Gadget Ammo ( healthpen, Rockets, spawnbeacons, mines and so on ), can revive anyone with armor and on top of that the possibility to choose the most powerful weapons AT ANY TIME.

How do you know that this angel infront of you is not just one guy with a medpack for his team, instead he is clearing chokepoints with unlimited C5 ?

The same to an less extend goes to falck, the ability to revive anyone, selfheal and heal others, wearing rocketlaunchers etc throws completely the balance out of the window.

There need to be restrictions or it become an completely unpredictable mess and chaos where it doesn’t matter what your knowledge is or how good you perform.

Personaly I can adapt to that but still, watching a clone warfare with cringe dialogues after each kill (Mackay especially) or the end of round bullsh.itery, (easy in - easy out haha omg so funny, Milk is coming out of my Nose) is what add to this insult of a game.


In bf4 I would take out the engineer first becouse i KNOW he is the one who is the most dangerous to you, not the Assaultguy with his Assaultrifles and maybe grenadelaunchers.

In BF2042 it CAN be potentially be everyone who kills you so you can’t play aggresive with tanks or you get shreddet in seconds when suddenly 5 falcks who Rezz the frontline pulls out theyr M5 Recoilles while 3 squirrels with C5 come from above, completely ignoring the map design so you are not safe anywhere anyway.

But you can’t play defensive either becouse the sniper class sends his C5 drones after you which kills you instantly if you stay to long on one spot.


So how do you balance this ?
I give you an easy answer:

You cant


It is one reason why no sane person likes this game and this design, it just caters to absolute lonewolfs who don’t need anything or anyone.

Battlefield should be about teamplay which clearly it is not currently and probably never will be in this installment.

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@Bolvard wrote:

@PsubondIt is to much flexibility.

An angel (a support specialist) near to Mackay clearly outplay every other specialist in term of gunfights

Why ?

Becouse he has Unlimited Ammo, Unlimited Amor, Unlimited Gadget Ammo ( healthpen, Rockets, spawnbeacons, mines and so on ), can revive anyone with armor and on top of that the possibility to choose the most powerful weapons AT ANY TIME.

How do you know that this angel infront of you is not just one guy with a medpack for his team, instead he is clearing chokepoints with unlimited C5 ?

The same to an less extend goes to falck, the ability to revive anyone, selfheal and heal others, wearing rocketlaunchers etc throws completely the balance out of the window.

There need to be restrictions or it become an completely unpredictable mess and chaos where it doesn’t matter what your knowledge is or how good you perform.

Personaly I can adapt to that but still, watching a clone warfare with cringe dialogues after each kill (Mackay especially) or the end of round bullsh.itery, (easy in - easy out haha omg so funny, Milk is coming out of my Nose) is what add to this insult of a game.


In bf4 I would take out the engineer first becouse i KNOW he is the one who is the most dangerous to you, not the Assaultguy with his Assaultrifles and maybe grenadelaunchers.

In BF2042 it CAN be potentially be everyone who kills you so you can’t play aggresive with tanks or you get shreddet in seconds when suddenly 5 falcks who Rezz the frontline pulls out theyr M5 Recoilles while 3 squirrels with C5 come from above, completely ignoring the MAP DESIGN so you are not safe anywhere anyway.

But you can’t play defensive either becouse the sniper class sends his C5 drones after you which kills you instantly if you stay to long on one spot.


So how do you balance this ?
I give you an easy answer:

You cant


It is one reason why no sane person likes this game and this design, it just caters to absolute lonewolfs who don’t need anything or anyone.

Battlefield should be about teamplay which clearly it is not currently and probably never will be in this installment.

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Map design? Wich map design?

Oh sorry, it's just that I'm too used to old games and I find the "map design" of this game to be completely ABSENT.

Sorry for the off topic.

@Bolvard
The ability to recognize and choose the target feels great in previous BFs. The level of complexity in Conquest comes down right now to happy running and gunning. You can`t tell in BF2042 at first glance if the enemy is going for spraying with RPK, planting C4, or anything else. There is more to be taken into consideration, more variables. The brain goes on fire just by seeing the same characters on both sides. There are only available 2-3 AT rockets so as a matter of fact, effectiveness is even lower than in previous BFs.

Squad Leader is only on paper and does nothing to the gameplay. Every player in the squad behaves like a mobile spawn point. There are no commander (BF2/4) or Squad abilities (BFV). Lack of Squad Management, which translates to no option to lock the squad to play with friends. No VoIP either in teamplay-based mode.

The game in Conquest mode is a pure abomination with its level design and gameplay solutions. The vehicles don't provide additional firepower to other units on the ground. Cars, hovercrafts, and even jets plow through the 128 player blobs. Instead of .50 cal, most vehicles have Gatling guns. No Quads, no motorcycles, no simple transport, only ridiculous mean of transport with Hovercraft and Little Bird on every single map. The idea of the theatre of war is completely alien in BF2042.

What on earth may not go wrong with 2042.

@Twordy  can't agree more 

I remember back in the days when you where with your tank, here not to blood blast and get your 200 k but support your teammate piercing through.

Then suddenly you see a RECON (then later in the franchise a SUPPORT) that manager to sneak through to you ... everybody onboard going " hooo sh*****t exit exit exit we been C4 ! " 

Or Suddenly seeing an ENGINEER sneak out of cover. " AT AT AT ! " 

Or even being MEDIC stuck near an objective because being blocked by a tank. And the huge relief of seeing friendly ENGINEER approaching (when one engineer had enough rockets to take care of one tank) 

We always had lonewolf but the damn it wasn't not restricting people for the pleasure of restricting them. Restricting isn't even the proper term. It was organizing, game core had a logic a structure ... now it's mess party heros clones fly run and jump all around. Vehicle go by at freaking 300 km/h.

Which is exactly what the last trailers showed. A freaking mess with a dumb hero shouting " what a time to be alive" ...  just shut up you hipster in a flying suit, wth are you doing in a BF ^^ ? 

Quite funny that the first trailer actually showed the perfect opposite, organized squad of SOLDIERS moving strategically. 

One point kinda told us the EA didn't gave a sh** anymore about the BF DNA and spirit recently. Where's the BF theme ? I mean the legendary BF theme ! Used in trailers because this theme was giving you goosebumps, because when you heard it  you knew. Now  it's random song pop / rock with a dude shouting "Yeaaaaaah yeahhhhhh" ... 

@BolvardYou complain about less predictability about the enemy, and your issues that you can't road rage with a tank anymore.
The times of 100/0 K/D of a BF4 tanker are over.

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@kregora wrote:

@BolvardYou complain about less predictability about the enemy, and your issues that you can't road rage with a tank anymore.
The times of 100/0 K/D of a BF4 tanker are over.

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This has always been the case on here.

People whinge that they can't do that 'thing' they used to do but instead of changing approach to better fit whatever mechanics are in the new game, they blame said game and demand it be made like previous titles.

Sometimes the 'whinges' have a degree of legitimacy, but most of the time, not.

SPOILER long post incoming. Because to answer to this topic we have to cover few things.

The FPS military game approach during the 2000's :

Rude, organic, feel at war, immersion. Hell look even COD at the beginning (World at War, such a great one)  

Time go by, some games start to make FPS less "military" and more quick fun easy cool shooter. BUT, Battlefield decide to keep this approach of :

You're a soldier. War immersion. Organized and paced gameplay, structured. It was this sweet spot between COD and ARMA

==> to do so, some key points will define what is BF.  : 

- the player character behave like a human

- infantry is supported by vehicles

- you are (have) not a personality, you are a soldier, among a squad.

-  you are given a class, you have a ROLE among your squad. Your appearance reflect your role

- you have a squad leader & commander, you're on a battlefield with a specific objective

- interactive environment (through destruction)

- mode HARDCORE if you want to push immersion further, you have to be even more careful and rely even more on your teammate. 

Now player will always play the way they want within the margin they are given. But this was the structure, the core of the gameplay. The BF DNA. And it was by consequences attracting a certain type of player. 

Let's see 2042. 

(we saw this direction start to appear before, BFV been quite a signal) 

- player run and move at a superhuman speed, jump and climb in 0.5s some 2m tall object and fences

- vehicles are not here to escort infantry, but are fun things on their own, in mass quantity. Can even pop out anywhere (hell, even roof)

- you have a face, a personality, you are not a soldier with a role you are a hero with tricks. You have cool looking outfit that doesn't reflect what you can do, but make you "unique".

- you can do and be whatever you want with whatever combinaison you want, no matter your "character"

- you have a leader on the paper but he can't do anything you can't 

- environment is half interactive (mostly due to map design) 

- no more mode HARDCORE

It's a simple key point comparaison. Between what along opus defined BF DNA, what's left in 2042.

___________

Now we are not lacking of games nowadays, the simple no class cool quick hero trendy individualist shooters are countless. But, we still had this sweet spot that was BF. This slightly more serious and rude game. Pretty much the only one of his genre done by a AAA studio.

EA came back with a marketing that was saying out loud "the real BF is back" : people expected a game that smell in everyway the BF DNA. 

People discovered that pretty much none of the DNA was there. The disappearance of the class to replace them by heros being one of the most obvious change ... well it was the cherry on the icing, the greatest beautiful final middle finger from EA to the BF fans.

Classes core idea was aligned with the core design of BF. To give you a role as a soldier, to structure things. While specialist (and not only through their outfit and cheesy lines), by the hero approach instead of soldier, the zero restriction (create your own recipe) etc ... diluted the notion of role and promoted the individualist style. Removing all the structure and organization. Wiped by the super dude that can do everything. 

Which goes among with the messy unorganized gameplay that 2042 suffer from. Heros clones flying jumping around with "tricks". No idea who does what. Vehicle absolutely everywhere passing by at 300 km/h.

___________

Consequences, so many people say specialist doesn't belong to BF. And it's not subjective approach, it's remarks based on BF DNA.

Now one could say, it's evolution, games change over years, so do BF. But evolution doesn't means turning your back on your own licence to attract a completely different customer target. Which is obviously what EA tried. And i emphasis the "tried" because number speak for themselves, it's a failure. Indeed Specialist is not the only source of it, but it's a whole. The specialist concept is a huge part of the problem linked to this new approach of the gameplay that do not fit a BF.

___________

So i'll turn around the question. What good does the specialist bring in a BATTLEFIELD game. And i don't count the more free weapon choice as argument, this simple change could have been easily done with classes adjustment.

Like allowing all classes to pick an Assault Riffle if they wanted. While giving each of them one kind of weapon specific to their role.

And some of the cool specialist tricks ideas as primary gadget choice (let's remember specialist are in fact gadget slot 1) 

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@VRACinque wrote:

SPOILER long post incoming. Because to answer to this topic we have to cover few things.

[...]

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I agree to all of this + want to add my thoughts to the most important points:

The classes have strong synergies. You can't just have a Team full of Medics against Tanks. You can't camp with your sniper forever - You need someone to give ammo.

The Specialists have no synergie at all. Just a bunch of random af abilities. Since everyone can do everything it all comes down to their active and passive ability. But they just don't work together at all... They are not so special after all...

Do I need a Sundance in my squad? No...

Do I need a Falck? Nice to have maybe but everyone can revive and spam health packs... So.. No...

If I go in a vehicle I dont even care about the character at all. There is not a single specialist that fit for vehicles at all.

If you look at every other hero shooter the Heros/Specialists always have a Role that they fill. They don't just change their loadout and become the super soldier that can do literally everything.

BF2042 never give me the feel to make a decision towards my squad because nobody cares and nobody needs to care.

All specialists are egoistic "I want this, and this and this" all you can eat idiots...

Being a medic with selfheal, long range sniper, ammo crate and sensor ball.. no need for any teamplay. Just a poor design.

The other thing that I hate about them is the stupidity in visuals in combination with their loadout.

In previous BFs you had detailed Characters where you could see all of their Loadout even when they switched Weapons.

In 2042 the stuff just disappears because it would look ridiciolous when Sundace wingsuites away with and LMG + Rocketlauncher.

In BF3 I can not just see the class they have but I can see "This guy has a Stinger on his back".

Ofc knowing the specific loadout was not important for gameplay. If I see an engineer as a Tank or Heli I smell danger and focus on that guy anyway.

But it has something to do with love for detail and immersion. BF2042 lacks in all of it.

Plus it's dumb when a sniper pulls out a AA Rocket out of his... Pants. How can I predict that as a pilot?

And ofc.. the cringe... They all need do become more serious to fit the world that BF2042 wants to be.

I wouldn't mind to have 10+ specialists if they were truly unique like a class.

There can be a close range recon like paik (shotgun, MPs), and a long range recon like caspar (Snipers, DMRs). They would fit specific roles and should only be able to do that. They would partly overlap with the loadouts ofc. But they would be A TRUE SPECIALIST of 1 specific role. Not mediocre at everything while a medic can do all of that better because of additional self heal.

why do you guys keep pretending that classes made people actually play together?  people that want to do that will do that the ones who won't...well won't.  did you stop to think that maybe the way the world has been recently and it's affect on people MIGHT have something to do with the lack of teamwork?  just MAYBE it's the person holding the controller that is the problem with team work and not the game

***edit***

i'm not saying the game doesn't have problems.  it does.  i'm saying the lack of teamwork is the people playing the game not the game itself.  no matter WHAT you do you will never be able to force people to play the way you want them to play (nor should you be able to)

@NiCeDiCe90Thing is, in previous games, you would often get teams full of Medics (who would then whinge on the forums about OP Tonks) and snipers would still camp without ammo, specialists haven't changed that.

In BF2042 for a squad to be effective you still need someone with heals, you still need someone with ammo, in a vehicle, it still helps to have someone to repair.

If that isn't happening, it is not the games fault because all of them are still possible, it is the players fault.

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@Psubond wrote:

why do you guys keep pretending that classes made people actually play together?  people that want to do that will do that the ones who won't...well won't.  did you stop to think that maybe the way the world has been recently and it's affect on people MIGHT have something to do with the lack of teamwork?  just MAYBE it's the person holding the controller that is the problem with team work and not the game

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Because that's the experience I had with previous Battlefield titles compared to 2042. Yes, at the end of the day how much and individual values teamwork relies on that individual, but developers can still attempt to guide their players in the direction that they want. No matter what, there will always be people who don't use teamwork regardless of how much it is needed. And there will be people who are the opposite and prioritize teamwork even if they gain nothing from it. But there are plenty of people who are in the middle too; people who are willing to work as a team, but just need a little nudge or guidance from the game to incentivize them to do so. 

Let's say that in previous games I found good teamwork in 30% of matches (probably less, just making up numbers). In my experience playing 2042, it's less. Sure, there's still maybe a 10% chance for good teamwork, and it certainly can and does happen, it simply happens less. And it seems like people are less concerned with it when playing the game. Partially because lone-wolfing it is just more viable, but there are many things that impact this. 

Let me turn this around: Why do you refuse to acknowledge that the specialist design choices could be affecting how much teamwork is in the game? As many others have said, like you just did, the person sitting with the controller or keyboard is the final determining factor for how much that person wants to use teamwork. But, as others have said, design choices like specialists vs classes have an impact on this as well. Why do you refuse to accept those other factors as part of the equation? 

@Trokey66 You're right - at the end of the day, bad teammates are bad teammates, and no amount of mechanics implemented by the devs can change that. 

All devs can do is include mechanics to incentivize the average player to prioritize teamwork. They can't force them to do anything, just try to guide them in that direction. That's all. Previous games made it very evident that this is what they were trying to do - guide players towards teamwork. 2042 just doesn't push players in that direction as much, that's all. 

Being a medic with only healing gear and a designated class of weapons naturally forces a medic meta, even for lone wolves - that's just the Battlefield way. I love having options but for Battlefield to feel like "Battlefield", I don't think the current system helps.

Give a medic the ability to naturally heal themselves without the use for a medpack, give them "better" primary weapons and anti-vehicle gear, they are given more incentive to become greedy/selfish.

Angel can literally give himself unlimited heals, anti-vehicle, ammo, added armor, and any weapons he so chooses at the same time...

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@kregora wrote:
@BolvardMackay working together with Angel is team play. And that is a good thing.

The unlimited explosives guy is nothing new, what you describe is similar to a BF3 or BF4 support.

Falck is a BF4 Assault Combat Medic, so nothing new.

When you speak about aggressive tank I imagine you in your tank against 2 squads of enemies. And in that situation you deserve to be devastated, because you forgot to forgot to bring your squad to fill the other 3 seats in your tank, or you decided to equip weapon pod and weapon station with anti-vehicle equipment instead of anti-infantry capabilities.
So it shouldn't be 1 vs 8 it should be 4 vs 8, and stupidly driving in a group of enemies to run them over, can work, but most likely gets you killed.

The BF3 the engineer is the one class definetely equipped with anti-vehicle equipment, the BF4 engineer is the most likely candidate. But the BF4 support and BF4 recon may carry enough C4 to blow you up into the sky as well.

And you are sad that the BF3/BF4 tanker lone-wolf no longer is a valid option, because everyone else is lone-wolfing, and most of the examples you bring are results of teamplay?

That doesn't make classes better than specialists, it only makes it maybe more predictable. You now need to adjust your world view, and learn that everyone you harass with a tank could bite back.

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Yep.

I'm a hardcore tanker and with each new battlefield game I have to learn new tactics based on the AT threats in the latest game.

It's not too dissimilar from BFV where due to the all class skins I was already treating every enemy infantry as a threat.

In 2042 as a successful tanker who doesn't get blown up quickly you need to be patient and just observe using the main map, the mini map, 3rd POV and 1st person POV.

Then you can make your move with some degree of confidence you're going to be successful in achieving your goal, whether that be ambushing an enemy tank or infantry or helping your team take or defend a flag. 

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@TTZ_Dipsy wrote:

Being a medic with only healing gear and a designated class of weapons naturally forces a medic meta, even for lone wolves - that's just the Battlefield way. I love having options but for Battlefield to feel like "Battlefield", I don't think the current system helps.

Give a medic the ability to naturally heal themselves without the use for a medpack, give them "better" primary weapons and anti-vehicle gear, they are given more incentive to become greedy/selfish.

Angel can literally give himself unlimited heals, anti-vehicle, ammo, added armor, and any weapons he so chooses at the same time...

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I believe you are wrong. We all know the support that doesn't drop its ammo crate and the medic that doesn't revive and drop medic crates.

Battlefield 4 generated the ultimate meta with medic dna, assault with assault rifle and under barrel  grenade launcher and med pack and defensive perk.

That is pretty much what you get when Falck uses a  SFAR-M GL und armor plates.

So when you are fascinated with classes, you speak about BF3 classes and earlier?

Angel is the Meta of BF2042 and needs a lot of changes to get his ability on par with the other specialists.

Team balance wise the team revive ability could be removed, the loadout crate needs to be redesigned. 

I have seen the argument that enforcing classes somehow encourages team play. I would love to see the in-game statistics on that!

I have played BF since BF2, and the number of times I have played with a specific squad, I can count on one hand. If I had to guess, I think the number of people playing as a 'lone wolf' is in the vast majority. This has gradually become worse with the increasing casualisation of the player base. Judging from the playing behaviour of my children, they seem to dip in and out of games constantly, always following the latest trend (Fortnite, Apex, etc.).

The gaming landscape has changed a lot since BF2. Hoping for a return to the 'good ol' days' is just wishful thinking IMHO.

@Lancelot_du_LacI agree and will add that what people call teamplay today in a game like BF 2042, is mainly "support": revives, ammo, armor, a little Soflam, ... when they happen.

In my book, teamplay goes way beyond: it's about coordinated squads working together on voice, BF2 / BC2 (rush) were the pinnacle for me, and it was still possible in BF3/4, on some specific servers with awesome communities.

As you say, "casualisation" has had a great impact on how games play and the BF franchise is no exception to this.

Classes alone cannot be seen as a solution against lonewolfing.

If you want teamplay nowadays, you have to pick a game like Hell Let Loose or Squad, which by design entirely revolve around it. BF 2042 just doesn't.