Cannot Kill Aircraft
Something needs to be changed in game vs aircraft. One top player on an aircraft changes the course of the round and it is happening to often. A good pilot cannot be shot down even with a coordinate ...
Forum Discussion
mewmewwm Those are not AA weapons, they're anti-armor weapons. You shouldn't have to be "creative", the tools designed to do a single job should simply be sufficient at that single job. A TOW missile is an AA weapon in the same way a tank is a sniper. Sure, technically it can be used for that. I've landed tank shots on snipers at 700 meters before. That shouldn't be the expectation. Would it not be a problem if that was the only realistic way to combat snipers? That is the situation AA is facing now. AA is worse at its job than literally anything else. The .50cal tank turret is just as good an AA turret as the AA vehicle's main gun. That's not someone being "creative", that's the builder's hammer not being able to drive in the proverbial nail and forcing them to turn to a rock they found outside.
LordRaiden008 Sure they aren't AA weapons, but they're still anti-vehicle weapons. I didn't think it should matter what the name, label, or category weapon it is if it does a job just as or more effectively for the situation, then why not make use of it? I recognize this is not the case for jets, so I'm speaking purely with regards to helicopters.
Handheld AAs are still fairly effective in a sense that a single shot often disables, if not kills, an attack helicopter. Lock-ons are enough to deter loitering by even a seasoned heli crew, while alternatively, forcing them to fly lower exposes them to more counter-platforms. There is nothing stopping an entire squad/multiple players from grabbing stingers and shutting out a helicopter. Both teams also typically have the same exact vehicle to counter the other's. Hence personally, this really seems like a skill/team issue.
I think the AA platform just seem like poor performers since its alternatives are relatively more effective at killing vehicles in general, that doesn't mean AAs suck that bad. I mean, it literally takes no skill to point, lock, and shoot. If you can force a chopper to fly away despite not killing it, I'd say that's still good use of AA since you've still forced them out of the fight.
Most players can hardly fly and survive in the choppers as is, it hardly makes sense to punish heli players in general by raising the skill ceiling through buffing their direct counters - you're effectively just trying to make things harder for average players in pursuit of punishing the 1%.
Sure they aren't AA weapons, but they're still anti-vehicle weapons. I didn't think it should matter what the name, label, or category weapon it is if it does a job just as or more effectively for the situation, then why not make use of it? I recognize this is not the case for jets, so I'm speaking purely with regards to helicopters.
Sure, like I said, RPGs are anti-air in the same way a tank is an anti-sniper weapon. RPGs are not anti-air. It should not be expected for them to be used as anti-air. Stingers should outperform an RPG 100% of the time when it comes to air combat. AA turrets should outperform an RPG 100% of the time when it comes to air combat. An RPG should be an absolute last resort against air, not the main weapon against it.
Handheld AAs are still fairly effective in a sense that a single shot often disables, if not kills, an attack helicopter. Lock-ons are enough to deter loitering by even a seasoned heli crew, while alternatively, forcing them to fly lower exposes them to more counter-platforms.
A single shot inconveniences a heli crew. It takes 2 to kill, and if the heli is moving at speed flares are absolute immunity due to the low range of the launcher. I have never seen a competent heli crew need to flee purely because of an AA launcher, or even several. As a pilot I know just as well as you that in their current state AA launchers just make easy, still targets. Even a full squad of them is effectively just fodder for the gunner on an assault heli. Even if they were forced to fly low (which they're not), the "more counter-platforms" are woefully inadequate.
I think the AA platform just seem like poor performers since its alternatives are relatively more effective at killing vehicles in general, that doesn't mean AAs suck that bad. I mean, it literally takes no skill to point, lock, and shoot. If you can force a chopper to fly away despite not killing it, I'd say that's still good use of AA since you've still forced them out of the fight.
It takes as much skill to point, lock, and shoot as it does to rack up 60+ kills with a heli. Not much. It's not a high skill endeavor, despite what so many other egotistical pilots claim. Once you nail the basics of flight you are immune to all damage but the odd Hail Mary RPG. Forcing a pilot to fly away is a failure, because the air platforms are designed to be highly mobile. AA didn't force anything away, AA just let it continue on its merry way, as it was always going to do. If a jet or assault heli is doing nothing but strafing/bombing runs, that's not AA "forcing" them into that strategy that is the main use of the vehicles. You might as well say snipers force repairing engineers to crouch and hide behind the vehicles they're repairing. They were always going to do that.
Most players can hardly fly and survive in the choppers as is, it hardly makes sense to punish heli players in general by raising the skill ceiling through buffing their direct counters - you're effectively just trying to make things harder for average players in pursuit of punishing the 1%.
"We can't nerf this or buff its counters because what about the bottom 1% of players?!" Why not extend that logic to other things? Tank drivers often suck and drive right over mines, but that's mean to players who don't know how to avoid mines. Let's just nerf mine damage to 1% damage to help them out. See the issue? You can't balance around the bottom of the barrel players. You balance so that competent players are vulnerable, good players have a challenge, and only excellent players are able to use it to its full effect for any length of time. A good pilot should be just as vulnerable as a good tank driver, which means all of its counters being able to utterly obliterate it when given even a slight opportunity or if they make a tiny error.
RPGs are not anti-air. [...] An RPG should be an absolute last resort against air, not the main weapon against it.
Says who? According to what? The RPG is an anti-vehicle weapon regardless, what specific sub-category of targets it's typically intended for is irrelevant...A heli is a vehicle, so is a tank, IFV, jet, or jeep - and vehicles are exactly what RPGs and most missile projectiles are made to be used against. A versatile power drill isn't advertised as a screwdriver, but it's certainly more popular and efficient at driving screws and often works better than a screwdriver, does that mean it can't be used as one? On a side note, again, my points here are largely regarding helicopters.
A single shot inconveniences a heli crew. It takes 2 to kill, and if the heli is moving at speed flares are absolute immunity due to the low range of the launcher. I have never seen a competent heli crew need to flee purely because of an AA launcher, or even several.
Sure, on paper it's 2, though in reality it's more like 1. Stingers wipe out like 90%+ of your health if not die to 1 on the off-chance it hits near the front, and most helis usually get damaged by other platforms if they're even exposing themselves to merit the attention, hence how in practice they typically die to 1 shot when it makes it through. That's hard to believe that crews don't flee, because if they didn't flee then a second stinger shot after flares have expired would land a hit/disable/kill, because if they otherwise didn't flee, AA players wouldn't be arguing about their second missile shots not tracking after the chopper flees into very low flight altitude to survive.
If your team can't manage to pull an extra stinger out (which is openly accessible by literally everybody) or coordinate/stagger shots like they would an RPG for tanks, or use other counters, as I've said, that's a team/skill issue. AAs can already safely lock on from over half-way across most maps as is while there is literally nothing crews can do to stop 1-shot laser-designated missiles or other projectiles that don't even trigger targeting warnings. Using KD on Manhattan or Sobek is just a poor example as that's inherently a map design problem that I, as heli enjoyer, think is also pretty seriously bad design.
"It takes as much skill to point, lock, and shoot as it does to rack up 60+ kills with a heli. Not much. It's not a high skill endeavor, despite what so many other egotistical pilots claim"
Definitely not the case. High KD score pilots and supposedly immortal chopper pilots are the exception, not the rule. It's not ego, it's fact. If you're able to achieve that, it's either the enemy team is really just that bad, or hey - congratulations - you are not actually an average pilot despite humbly considering yourself as such.
Practically anybody (and everybody) can use and shoot a stinger, yet not a lot of people even know how to fly a chopper, let alone use it proficiently to last more than a couple strafing runs. It takes more skill for a pilot to even survive and get kills for himself and his gunner, than it does to literally just stand there and point-and-shoot AA launchers towards a chopper in the blank canvas of an open sky. If it wasn't a skilled endeavor at any margin then most players that try to fly would be fairly effective at using choppers as their ground counterparts, which isn't the case... See how many random heli crews try to take turns at a chopper before one finally comes up as being effective enough to score good kill counts, if even.
Forcing a heli crew to fly away and deterring them from inflicting full damage potential is not "failure" in the slightest, you're still influencing and deterring their ability to loiter and suppress your team. Would you rather they did a quick strafe at your team and kill 1-2 people, or orbit/loiter and kill 6-8? Now do the math over the course of a 45-minute round. By your logic, tanks/IFVs surviving multiple RPG/AT launcher shots is "failure" because the tank is meant to absorb shots by design. Though the reality is just that a consistent or concerted effort is needed to kill it, keep it away, or hope the tank makes an error of judgement and gets itself killed so that it stops exerting its influence. The same logic is currently true with countering helicopters. It is a squad/team-based shooter with mechanics intended to reward team-play, is it not?
"We can't nerf this or buff its counters because what about the bottom 1% of players?!" Why not extend that logic to other things? [...] You balance so that competent players are vulnerable, good players have a challenge, and only excellent players are able to use it to its full effect for any length of time.
I was never talking about the bottom 1%. Most players can hardly fly, last a couple strafing runs, or make it back to repair their choppers as is. If the few proficient pilots are a problem then why is the solution making it harder for players in every skill bracket? That effectively just makes it harder for your average pilots (not just the top or bottom 1%) that can hardly fly or survive as is. You want to counter the small percentage of players that already know how to dominate and be unkillable by making users in every other skill bracket more killable by buffing a platform's direct-counter. I mean, hey, as a dedicated heli pilot enjoyer, let's have that by all means, the chopper would just be easier to die in, making it less attractive to casuals/average players, so players like me and my crew can have our turn in the chopper, dominate longer than the casuals, and flex our supposed ego harder for learning and knowing how to take advantage of the game's mechanics. How many random players/crews have their turn at a chopper before a decent one makes it through to cause a noticeable impact and high KD, if even?
A good pilot should be just as vulnerable as a good tank driver, which means all of its counters being able to utterly obliterate it when given even a slight opportunity or if they make a tiny error.
That already is the case, such errors being loitering after flaring, being greedy, flying too low for RPGs/Vehicles, or being too aggressive in the presence of multiple coordinated players/AAs/laser designation. Totally shutting out a chopper is not hard, and absurdly easy on open maps. AAs can already lock and shoot half-way across the map, you can sit on middle flags and take a swing at choppers leaving their base, the same is true with the supposedly "woefully inadequate" laser-designation/missiles that literally kill on 1 hit and literally can't be defeated by flares or any kind of "good piloting".
The counters being able to "utterly obliterate it" that you refer to are already widely available to way greater effect, from vehicles to weapons themselves, just that they just don't specifically identify as "anti-air", or have the same convenience as your typical lock-and-shoot AA-missile platform. I mean, if you'd rather argue the semantics of something not being labelled anti-[something] than exploit it's efficiency at being anti-[something] just because it's not specifically labelled that, well, that's really frankly a user skill problem, not a platform problem.
