2023 Season Grand Prix Megathread

So let's give it another shot at being civil? Disregarding the pointless stuff:

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@Meza994 wrote:

I often dont read your long posts fully so dont bother give another try for what you feel is needed and you are mistaken if you correlate RPM directly to ERS deployment as you already said, RPM is linked to wheel speed, this can be achieved by many different scenarios though not only ERS deployment - especially when they go at drastically different speeds.

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Here is what I said:

(Stating the obvious just to make it clear: RPM and wheel speed are linked. For any given RPM at a given gear, the wheels are necessarily going at a certain speed. If a regular car going full beans starts dropping RPM, there's something slowing it down – drag increasing so that the energy output has a greater resisting force to overcome, loss of grip... something. F1 cars are hybrids though so there's the electric power components to take into account. Hence my pointing out the speed and RPM traces dropping even while the throttle remains wide open). 

Breaking it down:

1. Engine and wheels are a closed loop. It goes like engine > crankshaft > clutch > drive shaft > gearbox > differential+final drive > axles > wheel hub > wheel. Unless the clutch is engaged (breaking that loop for the duration), for any given speed that the wheels go, the ICE will necessarily be at a given RPM on any given gear. So if the car is in 8th gear going 160kph, no matter the throttle level or the ERS SOC or the fuel load or whatever, the engine will be revving @ 7800RPM. Now if it is going at 160kph in 4th gear, no matter what, the ICE will necessarily be at 10.090RPM.
   1. Key phrase here: no matter what. So even if you were to strap a rocket to the engine cover and fire it, when the car reaches 160kph in 6th gear the engine will still be at 10090RPM. If the driver had the 8th engaged already, when the car hits 160kph it would be at 7800RPM. No matter what
   2. Why? Again: It's a loop. It's a closed system. The only component capable of breaking that loop is the clutch, as it disconnects the engine from the drive shaft – so the wheels can spin independently of the engine speed, and the engine can rev independently of the wheel speed.
2. What factors positively influence a F1 car speed? Engine power and ERS deployment (MGU-K). If you still have that rocket strapped to your car, please detach it to carry on with the exercise 🙃. What factors negatively impact a F1 car speed? Well, they're numerous and go from air resistance/drag to grip and so on. Weight does negatively impact on acceleration, but not on top speed by the way 😉 – as in if you had a infinitely long strip do keep the pedal down, eventually a F1 car at 790kg and the same car fully loaded with gas and a chubby driver to say 1000kg would still eventually reach the same top speed. 
3. Back on the scenario of post #478, I showed and said that when HAM hit his 298kph top speed, his wheel speed and engine speed (RPM) started dropping even while keeping it at 100% throttle.
4. That means that the car is slowing down. If the throttle demand exactly the same (100%), what could be playing a role at that? Different air to fuel mix? Hardly. Increased air resistance? Could be. Sudden loss of grip, as in the tyres getting past their optimal working range? Could be, as with less grip you cannot put down the same amount of energy coming from the PU if it exceeds your grip budget. ERS? Could be.
   1. Can you make a case for a significant difference in drag?
   2. Can you make a case for a significant change in grip?
   3. Can you make a case for ERS deployment? Perhaps derating (here's Mercedes explaining what it is, again, if you're not familiar with it), or decreased MGU-K output given their ERS map, or disengaging Overtake mode?
5. If you can reasonably assume that 4.1 and 4.2 are not playing that big of a role, with HAM leading on a high speed section with no backmarkers in front, see how one can infer the ERS working just by knowing the wheel speed, engine RPM and throttle demand?

Let me know if you get that, if you need more context or if you'll keep on disagreeing. 

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i didnt say that the 33 kph delta was wrong...

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Reference for context: "A true delta of 33 kph is just wrong"

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@Meza994 wrote:

but wrong that it would be RBs DRS delta as there is no big variety of DRS delta, either they have slipstream, more power etc. but what they gain from DRS in terms of drag reduction will stay mostly the same and not make up 33 kph, thats what i was only saying that the drag reduction alone without any slipstream or special energy deployment wont be 33 kph.. In special occasions of course with slipstream etc. there will be such a top speed delta but its not the effectivity of DRS alone then.

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On what relevant race context you'll have DRS without slipstreaming? That would be just FP or Quali with no traffic, right?

Where do you see DRS effectiveness being discussed with proper disregard to slipstreaming? Have you ever seen in the media or in interviews or on race analysys or whatever pundits going over DRS effectiveness but readily dissecting it "oh this much is the DRS working and this much we can safely disregard as being only tow"?

I can think of one: in the videogame. There you'll have neatly arranged variables across neatly arranged tables in not-so-neatly laid out strings with easily readable integers and floats and whatever, and its limited representation of racing physics. 

I can open my F1 22 data on my notepad too. Would it be relevant when discussing the sport? Nah 🙃

Not taking a dig at you. Just taking a long stroll to say this: your differentiation is pointless.

Even more so when the whole point of the effervescence and enthusiasm over these small or not-so-small gains that Red Bull have been making in this world class sport of fine, fine margins is how it integrates the DRS flap with their rear wing design with their beam wing design with their rear suspension with their diffuser design with their underfloor design with their sidepods... all the way to their front suspension beautifully holding on to keep the car from porpoising under those loads. 

But you want to stubbornly grasp at straws here and offer a bold take on what constitutes "true DRS delta", and what is slipstreaming or a bazillion other factors? Like oh no, you can't say this steak is tasteful because you need to take the seasoning out, the cooking out, and look just as the meat and then you'll see that it is just plain meat 🙈

Verstappen got a DRS delta of 33kph on Hamilton in Jeddah. It got a DRS delta of 36kph on Hamilton in Australia. Those will be computed on their averages and it already shows. That's it 😉

Take a look at this chart again:

Take both RB's averages out of the dataset. What average DRS effectiveness for the field do you get, my brother in Christ? Hint: way, way, waaaay lower. 

You'll have to make an effort to actually read it all this time. Otherwise I feel the only sensible thing would be to refrain from commenting – specially if you don't want to be hypocrite of complaining about context while making it a point of not caring about context 🙂 

I’m watching Jaws 2 🦈 

@mariohomohI wont try any argument with you when you leave out the biggest factor in car speed - Is it a significant difference in drag when one car has slipstream and DRS open? Yes, quite so, allowing e.g. Ferraris in 2021 getting up to 356kph around Silverstone 🙂

I wont even start arguing against comparing RPM in that situation with any other situation with wind, quali slightest slipstream etc. thanks.

Besides doing the math on the average for DRS without both RBs is 16.7 in contrast to 17.2.. Really huge difference 🙂

Dont bother with trying again, i dont care about you holding on to straws like the Australia delta was 36 kph when Hamilton was 10 kph faster just a second before taking that moment. I couldnt care less about you thinking im talking nonesense at this point especially when you value Ferrari engineers so highly after there blunders the past years.

I wish you no bad but i will ignore you from here on cause there is nothing to gain from someone showing in the data there was a 26 kph delta and insisting on it being 36 kph delta.

Have a good one.

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@Meza994 wrote:

@mariohomohI wont try any argument with you when you leave out the biggest factor in car speed - Is it a significant difference in drag when one car has slipstream and DRS open? 

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You forgot to detach the rocket 🚀, my sunbeam?!

😱

I even italicized it, now in bold: factors that positively impact on speed. As in, work by increasing the speed.

Drag impacts negatively, it is right there in both posts 😉

Aero components and slipstreaming don't make the car go faster, they just reduce drag - as in, they make a negative factor lesser.

And if a car going at top speed, full throttle, with the engine revving at 12000RPM in 8th gear, were to find a god blessed pocket of slipstream, guess what? Its RPM would increase in tandem with its speed.

Hopefully though you've got your main problem solved and figured out how you can indeed see the ERS working by knowing car speed, throttle trace and RPM. Will hardly ever be able to give an exact, discrete value to it and know how much of acceleration or deceleration is due to the MGU-K, but there it is 😉

Regarding the DRS delta, the original post:

When going through that same spot on the track (telemetry has distance on the "x" axis, not time), Verstappen was at 322kph. With an allegedly detuned PU 🥲.

He would still go to hit 325kph on that strip. That's 27kph delta from their respective top speeds.

The moment he overtook Hamilton though the delta was 36kph (VER 324kph against HAM's 288kph)

🫂

Edit: F1 Data Analysis on Twitter this morning:

Clipped text: "Avoid clipping (decrease in top speed at the end of the straight due to the empty battery🪫)"

Link