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Meza994's avatar
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
4 years ago

Driver rating - pace

Hey @EA_Kent and @BarryBL i dont know which one of you is better suited for this so sorry for tagging both😅

I know you will likely have finished all the ratings already but just in case..

In case you already strayed from the principle of rating midfield drivers at 87 pace in contrast to 99 pace - ignore this. If not please take this into consideration:

This season shows again how close drivers actually are but only taking the representative results into account as wet weather and differing track conditions will distort it a lot!

Except for the obvious exception of Latifi (vs Albon) and Zhou (unexperienced and vs Bottas) the biggest gap is Norris to Ricciardo and the latter is struggling a lot to get on with McLaren. But the best example is Leclerc vs. Sainz. Last year the gap was even smaller and still its only 0.227s which would be about 5-6 less pace rating than Leclerc who is arguably the best qualifying driver at the moment. In 2021 Sainz was rated 87 compared to Verstappen with 99. a difference of ~0.48s.. You probably see the problem already, Leclerc and Sainz didnt magically get 3 tenths faster, but their car got much better.

This also leads to problems at lower teams, if you would get Hamilton and Russel in the Williams in 2021 Hamilton would wipe the floor with Russel where IRL.. They are fairly equal on pace. And for players its the same, completely outdriving backmarkers in worse machinery which never happens like that IRL only to not get close to Hamilton or Verstappen in a top team.

Same applies to F2 drivers who get massively underrated for what they are capable of. By the standards of 2019-2021 Piastri would get a 75 rating till he drives in F1 and when he performs as everybody in F1 expects he would get a magic boost to 88 or even higher depending on how good he can adapt to F1 cars.

In general F2 drivers (and F1 drivers) should be balanced by having a driver have low to very low focus after joining a new team. This would (as long as focus works properly) mimic real life behaviour. And in order for this to work F2 driver ratings would be required to look similar to this:

This table is closely based on what happened in the 2021 F2 season, based on amount of races driven, mistakes and penalties taken, average finishes etc. just a little bit adapted to fit into the game. Top drivers a bit lower than id have them but till they are in F1 its too vague and the worse drivers also not as bad as they were IRL (Deledda 3s slower on average would require him to have 13 pace maximum) but still representative enough to lead to fairly realistic results ingame and not Deledda qualifying on Pole... Some things cant be replicated like Lawsons badluck however.

I hope that we see A) closer ratings in F1 and from top F2 drivers to midfield F1 and B) qualifying pace and race pace ratings differentiated which makes a huge difference!

f1 22

11 Replies

  • Liaveal's avatar
    Liaveal
    Rising Veteran
    4 years ago

    Very well detailed post and I agree with everything. 

    Most of the F1 drivers should be pretty similar in pace with a few standouts. Most should be in the 88-92 range but obviously, personnel stat boosts need to go or theyll all be at 100 which makes stats redundant.

    I'd personally go with this:

    Hamilton/Verstappen- 98

    Leclerc- 96

    Alonso/Russell- 93

    Norris/Bottas/- 92

    Sainz/Perez/Vettel/Gasly- 91

    Ricciardo/Magnussen/Ocon/Albon- 89

    Tsunoda- 88

    Stroll- 86

    Schumacher/Zhou- 84

    Latifi- 80

    Then icons:

    Schumacher- 97

    Senna- 98

    Prost- 95

    Rosberg- 94

    Button- 91

    Coulthard- 89

    Massa- 89

    Villeneuve- 92

    Webber- 89

    Hulkenberg- 89

  • Meza994's avatar
    Meza994
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago

    @LiavealI think we are at the point that we can leave the glorification of Hamilton and Verstappen behind, especially for this season..

    Realistic pace ratings (qualifying/race) matching the recent results under consideration of consistency would be

    Hamilton 96/96
    Russel 97/94
    Verstappen 97/96
    Perez 92/92
    Leclerc 98/96
    Sainz 94/92
    Norris 96/93
    Ricciardo 87/89 (edited)
    Alonso 93/92
    Ocon 91/90
    Gasly 91/89
    Tsunoda 89/88 (bad consistency)
    Vettel 89/91
    Stroll 85/88 (edited)
    Albon 90/91
    Latifi 74/80
    Bottas 94/90 (edited but on the edge, need to see next races..)
    Zhou 82/82 (bad consistency)
    Schumacher 86/86 (bad consistency)
    Magnussen 89/88

    Perez is doing great this season and performs more consistent on his level compared to Verstappen.
    Russel will likely outpace Hamilton in future races in qualifying too but Hamiltons race pace and racecraft will probably bring him in front in the races (if bad luck doesnt deny him)
    Leclerc is performing amazingly and was known from the start to be absolute class in qualifying and has upped his race pace this season.
    Ricciardo with a bit worse consistency matching reallife
    Alonso and Ocon are very close this season
    Tsunoda can be very close to Gasly too but is too inconsistent
    Vettel Stroll maybe a bit more gap in qualifying but Strolls DNF in Australia quali makes it seem worse
    Latifi/Albon is pretty much the current average gap
    Zhous inconsistency leads to bigger gaps and same with Schumacher

    But yes stat boosts are making this even worse even when they would exceed 100, last year it would be Russel 90 (85+5) and Hamilton 113 (98+15) pace after half a season.. 23 pace equals 0.92s so yeah completely wrong and stat boosts were a neat idea but completely going the wrong direction

    Schumacher 97/97

    Senna- 99/96

    Prost- 93/95 (Prost gains with awareness and racecraft)

    Rosberg- 96/93

    Button- 90/94

    Coulthard- 89/92

    Massa- 95/91

    Villeneuve- 93/92 (I dont rate Villeneuve Jr. really high, Williams OP)

    Webber- 91/93

    Hulkenberg- 92/89

  • gizt7's avatar
    gizt7
    4 years ago
    @Meza994 wrote:

    Realistic pace ratings (qualifying/race) matching the recent results under consideration of consistency would be

    Hamilton 96/96
    Russel 97/94
    Verstappen 97/96
    Perez 92/92
    Leclerc 98/96
    Sainz 94/92
    Norris 96/93
    Ricciardo 89/90
    Alonso 93/92
    Ocon 91/90
    Gasly 91/89
    Tsunoda 89/88 (bad consistency)
    Vettel 89/91
    Stroll 86/89
    Albon 90/90
    Latifi 74/80
    Bottas 93/89
    Zhou 82/82 (bad consistency)
    Schumacher 86/86 (bad consistency)
    Magnussen 89/88

    Out of curiosity, which stats do you use for these? I will play my Bottas card again 😃, but on race pace Stroll on the same level? Vettel and Albon faster? What has Ricciardo done this year to be rewarded with such a high stat?

    As an example, average finish this year for BOT a bit under 7. Other examples I listed above are around 11 and 12. So just wondering?

    I agree difference in stats between drivers should be smaller as most of them would perform well in better cars. And as we all have our own viewpoints, best would be to allow players to edit these in the game.

  • Meza994's avatar
    Meza994
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago
    @gizt7 The car is the defining factor buddy.. Bottas has a car a second a lap faster than Vettel, Albon and Stroll.

    I will agree that its best to have players edit them themselfes as their are too many myths about how much the driver makes the pace and too many that believe these myths, in the end a great driver makes less than 0.5% laptime difference to a good driver. In other terms, no Hamilton, Russel, Verstappen or Leclerc would have scored points in the 2019 Williams on merit (Kubica was pure luck).

    Ricciardo? Is over a tenth slower each lap in race pace than Norris by my rating which is fairly fitting but for Ricciardo i can see the rating going down by 1 or 2 for both quali as well as race pace.
    Stroll has shown this and last season that hes regularly able to go toe to toe with Vettel on race pace and his race results would be balanced with worse racecraft and awareness.
    Might have helped if i wrote the individual consistency values as well next to them because like this Vettel is 0.36s slower in quali than Leclerc but also has worse consistency, so when Codemasters ever implement consistency this would make Vettel be slower a few times more often.
    Regarding Albon i dont know what you are on about, Williams is a horrendous car this season and he is mostly having the same gaps to Latifi as Russel had last year and scored points. 90/90 or in other words equal to Gasly is more then justified! And giving Latifi pace below 70 doesnt fit to his F2 career (5th, 9th and 2nd)..

    But yes people will never agree on ratings, be it misbelieve in driver importance, liking a driver more than others or the opposite so an editor would be best but at the same time still be depending on the car performances..

    Lemme just give you a good example for misfitting car performance/driver rating balance: Williams made to only be 1.5s slower than best. IRL gap to pole ~2.4s requires Albon to have 76 pace rating and Latifi at 60. Now if Albon would go back to Red Bull ingame that would have him 0.9s slower ingame. But even in 2020 when Red Bull had a really tough car to master (even Verstappen said so and every driver from 2019-2021 - same base car - next to Verstappen struggled) Albon only had an average gap to Verstappen of 0.4-0.5s (rain excluded). This alone is a difference of 10-13 pace points in the game and by now Albon is more experienced and especially the current Red Bull seems much easier to master so a gap of around 0.3s (just like in my rating) is even a low expectation considering Perez' jump from last season.

    Point is being able to edit the stats is needed for fine tuning - but with wrong balancing in the first place its getting ridiculous as well! Imagine being forced to give Bottas 99 pace ratings because the Alfa Romeo is not getting close to Merc otherwise or having to give Bottas 80 pace because Alfa is too fast? Its a tough balancing act that needs the right baseline first and then editable driver stats can have their full effect to make everybody mostly happy :P
  • Liaveal's avatar
    Liaveal
    Rising Veteran
    4 years ago

    Really an in game stat editor is the best answer. Then apply any changes you make the same way we do when theres a driver update from Codies. Even better if we could edit from within career mode.

    Would make everyone happy. Since we can all agree that we cant agree on driver stats. We can set them as we prefer and those that want to go "haha lol Goatifi 100 pace" can do that if they wish.

    I'd use it to render permanent boosts redundant as well myself.. Anyone driving at a team with +10 permanent boosts I'd just drop their stats by 10 and if they move to one with only +5 I'd give them 5 starts back so they perform at the right stat. 

    Can even do our own driver growth/decline with an editor or decide if a driver has a bad season.

    Playing 2020 for example, season 1 Ricciardo with 92 pace but moves to McLaren in season 2 (21 obviously) and drop his pace to 87 to replicate his poor season last year. 

  • gizt7's avatar
    gizt7
    4 years ago
    @Meza994 Agree, difficult balancing and just looking time difference doesn't work in my books. You can never say this car is x.x seconds slower, when you do not have same drivers driving them. In addition, some cars fit better for some driver than the other. Like Perez, I don't think he suddenly got so much closer to Verstappen's pace, but is just more comfortable in this year's car at the moment.

    I would simplify the stat model and not use values 1-100. I would put drivers in tiers, maybe 4 or 5 as in the end, they are really close to each. Saying, if some one is 89 or 90 is a bit pointless in the world with millions of moving parts.
  • Nuvolarix's avatar
    Nuvolarix
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago
    @Meza994 wrote:

    @LiavealI think we are at the point that we can leave the glorification of Hamilton and Verstappen behind, especially for this season..

    Realistic pace ratings (qualifying/race) matching the recent results under consideration of consistency would be

    Hamilton 96/96
    Russel 97/94
    Verstappen 97/96
    Perez 92/92
    Leclerc 98/96
    Sainz 94/92
    Norris 96/93
    Ricciardo 89/90
    Alonso 93/92
    Ocon 91/90
    Gasly 91/89
    Tsunoda 89/88 (bad consistency)
    Vettel 89/91
    Stroll 86/89
    Albon 90/90
    Latifi 74/80
    Bottas 93/89
    Zhou 82/82 (bad consistency)
    Schumacher 86/86 (bad consistency)
    Magnussen 89/88

    Perez is doing great this season and performs more consistent on his level compared to Verstappen.
    Russel will likely outpace Hamilton in future races in qualifying too but Hamiltons race pace and racecraft will probably bring him in front in the races (if bad luck doesnt deny him)
    Leclerc is performing amazingly and was known from the start to be absolute class in qualifying and has upped his race pace this season.
    Ricciardo with a bit worse consistency matching reallife
    Alonso and Ocon are very close this season
    Tsunoda can be very close to Gasly too but is too inconsistent
    Vettel Stroll maybe a bit more gap in qualifying but Strolls DNF in Australia quali makes it seem worse
    Latifi/Albon is pretty much the current average gap
    Zhous inconsistency leads to bigger gaps and same with Schumacher

    But yes stat boosts are making this even worse even when they would exceed 100, last year it would be Russel 90 (85+5) and Hamilton 113 (98+15) pace after half a season.. 23 pace equals 0.92s so yeah completely wrong and stat boosts were a neat idea but completely going the wrong direction

    Schumacher 97/97

    Senna- 99/96

    Prost- 93/95 (Prost gains with awareness and racecraft)

    Rosberg- 96/93

    Button- 90/94

    Coulthard- 89/92

    Massa- 95/91

    Villeneuve- 93/92 (I dont rate Villeneuve Jr. really high, Williams OP)

    Webber- 91/93

    Hulkenberg- 92/89

    Very interesting topic and I also agree with the most of the stats here.

    Having saying that an in game editor like suggested would really help the player to apply the own fine tuning (no more Bottas 2020 overpower etc.).

    Regards,

    Nuv

  • Meza994's avatar
    Meza994
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago

    @LiavealYup.. Or ideally with Focus and Consistency working properly in the game you would only need to drop Ricciardos Focus and this in turn would make him much more inconsistent which is his true problem since 2021. He is occasionally beating Norris but then someimes 7 tenths off, best replicated by consistency.

    @gizt7in theory a nice idea but it wouldnt work well. Certain drivers would get on average the same results ingame although even the difference in 2 pace can lead to one having the slightly upper hand and especially with F2 drivers ranging usually from mid 50 to 85 or 90 pace (by my way of rating) its tough to put them all into the same sub group and get good results by the AI..

    Yes its never gonna work to find common ground about +1 or -2 or something but certain gaps can be matched fairly well by this and the rest edited by player to personal opinion. For example strictly going by the pace gaps between teammates i posted at the start Stroll would need 5 less pace than Vettel (1 pace roughly equals 0.04s laptime ingame) for Sainz the same to Leclerc but only because he had worse qualifying the past 2 races (worse consistency stat :P) Anyway im gonna edit my rating a bit as you got a point for small tweaks but yea never gonna be perfekt but 1-100 is the best way for accurate representation in the game sadly

    And yes absolutely agree on the part about gauging the cars pace and how the car influences the drivers pace, im personally gauging them on the gaps known well, for example Bottas is on average ~0.1-0.15s slower in quali than Hamilton which would then mean if they do on average the same quali times this season that Alfa is ~0.15s faster than Merc (hypothetical speaking). Of course this ignores how well a driver comes along with a car but usually they got 2 drivers which are known for certain pace (not 2 rookies as Haas last year) so most of the time its possible to still find a fairly relialbe source for comparison but yes its very possible to have a tenth wrong here and there

  • Meza994's avatar
    Meza994
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago
    @Nuvolarix An editor would also help me mod the game to specific seasons😝 having a Leclerc at 90 pace makes it tough to mod a 2019 season without having Ferrari fully OP when you drive it😂
  • Nuvolarix's avatar
    Nuvolarix
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago
    @Meza994 wrote:
    @NuvolarixAn editor would also help me mod the game to specific seasons😝 having a Leclerc at 90 pace makes it tough to mod a 2019 season without having Ferrari fully OP when you drive it😂

    😱😂😂

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