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cearp8858's avatar
cearp8858
Rising Hotshot
4 years ago

Re: David Greco's Handling, Driving and Setup Q&A (?)

@FG44141 IRL the teams always try and use as low a tyre pressure as possible so tbh the fact you have to use lower pressures is actually more accurate now than what we had from 2019 upto now.

you dont have to use lowest pressures eg bahrain i can race with the default loaded setup with tyre pressures that are set around the middle of the sliders and i get no overheating tyres at all, also remember we have 5 differant compounds so teh tyres are not teh same compounds at every track and some tracks that use the c5 you may find that tyre also had issue with over heating and grip dropping off irl with teams not wanting to use that tyre in the race at all 

the brake balance i agree is incorrect but as david has already said thats a change for next years handling model and isn't something he can do for this year and to be fair we have had a lot of changes from last year to this year due to the need for the floor to generate downforce correctly and how the floor interacts with kerbs and bumps etc

11 Replies

  • Meza994's avatar
    Meza994
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago
    @cearp8858 IRL they use lowest tyre pressure due to other reasons though, the whole tyre pressure ingame is the wrong way around, under NORMAL circumstances lower pressures lead to higher temps but in the game other way around..

    I agree though with what you generally say!
  • mariohomoh's avatar
    mariohomoh
    Hero (Retired)
    4 years ago
    @Meza99 not exactly. I know you know it better, but given how many people are having such a hard time getting a hold over the new patch we should be more careful.

    In motorsports as a whole decreasing tyre pressures will increase the amount of flex during corners, increasing the tyre's work rate and thus the overall grip - since cornering is key for performance. To a point, though: underinflated tyres will wear haphazardly.

    That's why teams often push for lower pressures and Pirelli mandates minimum psi.

    All work you subdue your tyres to will increase the temperature, but lower pressures on an easy lap will have lower temperature. That's for real life and the game both, isn't it?

    Higher pressures will give you a higher baseline temperature, but will decrease the work rate of the tyres and thus also reduce the wear. To a point, though: too much heat will degrade the tyres.

    Tyre wear has basically two sources: physical abrasion (aggravated by running low pressures as you increase the work load) and heat degradation (too much work, or too much pressure).

    https://youtu.be/YmfN_F2LPQs

    What I remember you mentioning being wrong in the game was how much you'd gain in lap times by running high pressures. Lower pressures will give you higher wear and lower baseline temperature though, as it should.
  • sirio42994's avatar
    sirio42994
    4 years ago
    @mariohomoh wrote:
    @Meza99 not exactly. I know you know it better, but given how many people are having such a hard time getting a hold over the new patch we should be more careful.

    In motorsports as a whole decreasing tyre pressures will increase the amount of flex during corners, increasing the tyre's work rate and thus the overall grip - since cornering is key for performance. To a point, though: underinflated tyres will wear haphazardly.

    That's why teams often push for lower pressures and Pirelli mandates minimum psi.

    All work you subdue your tyres to will increase the temperature, but lower pressures on an easy lap will have lower temperature. That's for real life and the game both, isn't it?

    Higher pressures will give you a higher baseline temperature, but will decrease the work rate of the tyres and thus also reduce the wear. To a point, though: too much heat will degrade the tyres.

    Tyre wear has basically two sources: physical abrasion (aggravated by running low pressures as you increase the work load) and heat degradation (too much work, or too much pressure).

    https://youtu.be/YmfN_F2LPQs

    What I remember you mentioning being wrong in the game was how much you'd gain in lap times by running high pressures. Lower pressures will give you higher wear and lower baseline temperature though, as it should.

    This. You can get overheating both by underinflating and overinflating. And for two different reasons (that mario explained well).

    This is well simulated in other sims. In the first Assetto Corsa you had to lower the pressures compared to the default setups to get the correct tyre temperature range. In that case tyres were cold and needed more work (coming from lower pressures) to be in range

  • mariohomoh's avatar
    mariohomoh
    Hero (Retired)
    4 years ago
    @sirio42994 Yep. There's no mind bending, crazy issues going on with the game. And anyone can still toggle off tyre simulation on the settings if they do not want to fiddle with these things.

    You don't need to follow motorsports for long to know how tyres are a constant struggle to the teams.

    Even people on a keyboard can play these F1 games, as long as they know the concessions they need to make and settings they need to adjust. This is a testament for how accessible the franchise is, by the way - not a dig at Codies.
  • Meza994's avatar
    Meza994
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago
    @mariohomoh Absolutely but as Pirelli puts minimum pressures i doubt F1 - and therefore the game too would run into underinflation territory

    Regarding the tyre temps, its always gonna be lower temps with lower pressure in the game - currently. Higher work doesnt do anything, any heat inducing stuff is lower when the pressure is lower! But your "base heat" stuff adds to something i will hopefully suggest tomorrow, giving low pressures and high pressures their own right in the game.

    So just as a correction for you yes the wear is 100% correct with being worse for lower pressure but under no circumstances other than overheating is lower pressure better performance in the game and its ALWAYS lower temperatures, nothing with baseline or anything. But how and what i want changed exactly is gonna come with a suggestion as i mentioned, dont worry its gonna include all the tyre philosophy you mentioned.

    Just fyi, its specifically for cases like you brought up that i said "NORMAL circumstances", because i know there are circumstances when high pressure is better for higher temps and low pressure is better for lower temps (even though the latter are very rare and even rarer useful)
  • mariohomoh's avatar
    mariohomoh
    Hero (Retired)
    4 years ago
    @Meza994 Sorry, but I don't think that's clear?

    Under "NORMAL" circumstances, lower pressures will give you lower average temps. Low pressures have the potential to give you a spike in temps, but that is not because of the pressures per se, it's from the higher workload – and anyway that's somewhat moot, we never really care about brief spikes.

    Tyres generate grip from the flexing and twisting of the rubber. Grip is basically work. Lower pressures enable more flexing (if you push), thus more work and thus WILL lead to higher wear and CAN lead to high temps during a highly straining section, like a long high speed corner, but the tyres will cool down quickly if there follows a long straight – quicker than they would with higher pressures.

    The average temperature can still be lower than if you had high pressures, depending on the car, the track and on how much you're pushing.

    The game will give you higher average temps and lower wear if you run with high pressures, and lower average temps and higher wear if you run with low pressures.

    It's no "philosophy", it's physics.
  • Meza994's avatar
    Meza994
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago
    @mariohomoh ...Normal circumstances are race conditions which in turn have a high workload and leads to higher temperatures which all engineers agree on, high workloads like when you go all out in qualifying your tires are completely overheated by sector 3 even with a long straight before that like Sochi had, the cornering speeds and therefore loads the tyres had are not comparable to any other racing series so its a completely different balance for heating due to pressures than compared to cars which have great acceleration but have way lower cornering speeds/loads.

    Yes they cool out faster on straights than with high pressures but not like anything you imply. If it were for wet conditions it would be different, those are different conditions as the workload is lower than NORMAL race conditions, more time on the straights and less load in the corners which makes higher pressures give more heat.

    The game simply gives you higher temps with higher pressure, not average nothing lol no matter if on straights or in corners the DATA says higher pressure - higher temperatures! This was different though in F1 2021.. in that game straights made lower pressures give you higher temps and corner lower temps and for high pressures the other way around.
  • mariohomoh's avatar
    mariohomoh
    Hero (Retired)
    4 years ago
    @Meza994 wrote:
    @mariohomoh...Normal circumstances are race conditions which in turn have a high workload and leads to higher temperatures which all engineers agree on, high workloads like when you go all out in qualifying your tires are completely overheated by sector 3 even with a long straight before that like Sochi had, the cornering speeds and therefore loads the tyres had are not comparable to any other racing series so its a completely different balance for heating due to pressures than compared to cars which have great acceleration but have way lower cornering speeds/loads.

    Yes they cool out faster on straights than with high pressures but not like anything you imply. If it were for wet conditions it would be different, those are different conditions as the workload is lower than NORMAL race conditions, more time on the straights and less load in the corners which makes higher pressures give more heat.

    The game simply gives you higher temps with higher pressure, not average nothing lol no matter if on straights or in corners the DATA says higher pressure - higher temperatures! This was different though in F1 2021.. in that game straights made lower pressures give you higher temps and corner lower temps and for high pressures the other way around.

    I guess you didn't watch the french GP then or the team radios 🙃

    I have a truckload of telemetry files via the PXG and Itko Ren apps, all the way from F1 2019. Give me your email and I'll shoot you a cloud link, if you want.

    Try spotting lower pressures giving higher average temps throughout a lap.

  • Meza994's avatar
    Meza994
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago
    @mariohomoh Yup searing heat melting the tires is obviously a normal circumstance... Which obviously favours putting less load on the tyres..

    What, game data?😂 Or somehow got the actual telemetry of real life F1 thats highly confidential?
  • mariohomoh's avatar
    mariohomoh
    Hero (Retired)
    4 years ago
    @Meza994 I'm not going to step down for a pointless word jostling.

    For anyone still interested:

    The higher the work rate of a tyre, the higher the wear. Overheating tyres i.e. hotter than their working window will also wear down faster.

    Lower pressures enable more tyre flex and thus more work. Higher cornering loads, better cornering performance. Higher wear.

    Higher pressures will decrease the work rate and thus tyre wear. Your average temperatures will be higher, but it doesn't really matter as long as you're inside the working window.

    Even though low pressures will inevitably have a lower baseline temperature (that's just how physics work and motorsports and simracing both are no ignorant of that), work still induces heat, so it is expected to see a hot spike. Anyway, the wear rate will still be higher.

    One issue with the previous "meta" of high pressures all around would be having the tyres always on the top of their temperature window. Once you overshoot it by pushing, the it's a slippery slope of increasing wear as you're outside their working range.

    You still need to have a reasonable setup. It's not only pressures determining how much work your tyres are doing. It all matters, from stiffness to aero loads.

    Same for the driving. Being smooth is key to keep all four tyres from exceeding their work capabilities.
  • Meza994's avatar
    Meza994
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago
    @mariohomoh You didnt answer my question on what telemetry so im not gonna give that discussion any credit..

    To correct all what you said for what it is like in the game

    Lower pressure causes lower temps while cornering and on the straight

    Lower pressure causes more wear at all times.

    higher pressure causes higher temps while cornering and on the straight and gives more stability/pseudotraction through less rolling resistance.

    Higher temperatures - unless there is a hidden mechanic not in the files - do not increase the wear of the tyre, not at all.

    The rest about smooth driving applies to the game absolutely correct and yes the rest of the setup also plays a role in how much the tyres work.

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