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Re: David Greco's Handling, Driving and Setup Q&A (?)

Sorry for the long post. This one is very interesting though. Found a string of aero code from the files. There are "FrontCoeffLiftVsRideHeight" values for front and rear in the beginning of the code. I made a basic chart using those values. We've been trying to understand with @Mikulitsi what is this information about but didn't come up with anything groundbreaking. Can some of you find out what this chart would be about?

25 Replies

Nuvolarix
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@taattor wrote:
Sorry for the long post. This one is very interesting though. Found a string of aero code from the files. There are "FrontCoeffLiftVsRideHeight" values for front and rear in the beginning of the code. I made a basic chart using those values. We've been trying to understand with @Mikulitsi what is this information about but didn't come up with anything groundbreaking. Can some of you find out what this chart would be about?
<F1Aero>
<BodyDragCoeffMin value="0.805" />
<BodyDragCoeffMax value="0.775" />
<FrontCoeffLiftVsRideHeight numVertices="26">
<SplineElement x="0.0000" y="1.2059" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.0400" y="1.2525" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.0800" y="1.3223" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.1200" y="1.3449" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.1600" y="1.3432" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.2000" y="1.3376" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.2400" y="1.3320" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.2800" y="1.3266" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.3200" y="1.3215" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.3600" y="1.3166" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.4000" y="1.3120" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.4400" y="1.3076" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.4800" y="1.3035" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.5200" y="1.2996" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.5600" y="1.2959" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.6000" y="1.2925" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.6400" y="1.2893" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.6800" y="1.2862" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.7200" y="1.2834" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.7600" y="1.2807" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.8000" y="1.2782" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.8400" y="1.2759" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.8800" y="1.2736" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.9200" y="1.2715" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.9600" y="1.2696" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="1.0000" y="1.2677" op="=" />
</FrontCoeffLiftVsRideHeight>
<FrontCoeffLiftMultiplier value="1.0" />
<RearCoeffLiftVsRideHeight numVertices="26">
<SplineElement x="0.0000" y="1.1311" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.0400" y="1.2549" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.0800" y="1.4333" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.1200" y="1.4998" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.1600" y="1.5085" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.2000" y="1.5076" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.2400" y="1.5063" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.2800" y="1.5049" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.3200" y="1.5036" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.3600" y="1.5024" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.4000" y="1.5012" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.4400" y="1.5002" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.4800" y="1.4991" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.5200" y="1.4981" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.5600" y="1.4972" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.6000" y="1.4964" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.6400" y="1.4956" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.6800" y="1.4948" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.7200" y="1.4941" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.7600" y="1.4934" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.8000" y="1.4928" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.8400" y="1.4922" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.8800" y="1.4917" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.9200" y="1.4911" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.9600" y="1.4906" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="1.0000" y="1.4902" op="=" />
</RearCoeffLiftVsRideHeight>
<RearCoeffLiftMultiplier value="1.0" />
<NumFrontWingSettings value="50" />
<FrontWingCoL0 value="0.14" />
<FrontWingCoL1 value="0.01278" />
<FrontWingCoL2 value="0" />
<FrontWingCoD0 value="0.0311" />
<FrontWingCoD1 value="0.0027" />
<FrontWingCoD2 value="0.002" />
<FrontCoLByWingDamageMult value="0.25" />
<NumRearWingSettings value="50" />
<RearWingCoL0 value="0.16" />
<RearWingCoL1 value="0.017045" />
<RearWingCoL2 value="0" />
<RearWingCoD0 value="0.0635" />
<RearWingCoD1 value="0.0063" />
<RearWingCoD2 value="0.00419" />
<m_aero_front_wing_loss value="0.5" />
<m_aero_max_front_height value="-0.005" />
<m_aero_min_front_height value="0.075" />
<m_aero_max_rear_height value="-0.005" />
<m_aero_min_rear_height value="0.075" />
<m_aeroSlipStreamAirDensityScaleLift value="0.85" />
<m_aeroSlipStreamAirDensityScaleDrag value="0.9" />
<m_aeroSlipStreamCarWidth value="1.5" />
<m_aero_rear_wing_loss value="0.000000" />
<m_aero_wing_front_drag value="1.000000" />
<m_aero_wing_front_force value="1.000000" />
<m_aero_wing_rear_drag value="0.85" />
<m_aero_wing_rear_force value="0.9" />
<FrontForceDirectionMultiplier numVertices="4">
<SplineElement x="0" y="1" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.0523599" y="1.025" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="1.571" y="0.75" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="3.14159" y="0.75" op="=" />
</FrontForceDirectionMultiplier>
<RearForceDirectionMultiplier numVertices="4">
<SplineElement x="0" y="1" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.02618046237869" y="1.01" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="1.571" y="0.5" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="3.14159" y="0.5" op="=" />
</RearForceDirectionMultiplier>
<ForceVelocityMultiplier numVertices="2">
<SplineElement x="0" y="0" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="120" y="0" op="=" />
</ForceVelocityMultiplier>
<DistanceDrivenCumulativeDRSFailureChance numVertices="2">
<SplineElement x="0" y="0.0" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="300000" y="0.1" op="=" />
</DistanceDrivenCumulativeDRSFailureChance>
<DRSRotationAngleRadians value="0.646" />
<DRSRotationJointAngleRatio value="0.5" />
<DRSOpenCloseSpeed value="6.00" />
<DRSFailTimeMin value="300" />
<DRSFailTimeMax value="900" />
<CentreOfDragZOffset value="0" />
<DragCoefficientSide value="2.05" />
<DragCoefficientTop value="6.6" />
</F1Aero>
Hard to say here... @Meza994 @mariohomoh @ActuallyImJulie ?
ActuallyImJulie
3 years ago
It's how much downforce is generated by the floor, based on the ride height of the car... but I think you knew that. Ride height is not a known quantity, you can't find what it actually is anywhere in the files. There's stuff like <RearSuspensionRestLengthMin value="0.05" /> <RearSuspensionRestLengthMax value="0.08" /> which is what you use when you change ride height in game, but those are still arbitrary values I believe.

The <FrontCoeffLiftMultiplier value="1.0" /> and <RearCoeffLiftMultiplier value="1.0" /> is a mutiplier of those sections to easily scale the downforce generated by the different cars.

There is also <FrontWingCoL0 value="0.14" /> <FrontWingCoL1 value="0.01278" /> <FrontWingCoL2 value="0" /> and <RearWingCoL0 value="0.16" /> <RearWingCoL1 value="0.017045" /> <RearWingCoL2 value="0" />. These control how much downforce the wings generate.

There's some more stuff here that I might come back to later.
ScarDuck14
Legend
3 years ago
@ActuallyImJulie I didn’t 😀.
ActuallyImJulie
3 years ago
Ok, later is now.

<SplineElement x="0.0000" y="1.1311" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.0400" y="1.2549" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.0800" y="1.4333" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.1200" y="1.4998" op="=" />
<SplineElement x="0.1600" y="1.5085" op="=" />

In this section you see the numbers in the y column decrease. This is to simulate stalling as the floor gets closer to the track. The x column is the... *sigh* "reference" to a separate "definition". Sorry, it's kinda hard to explain.

<m_aero_max_front_height value="-0.005" />
<m_aero_min_front_height value="0.075" />
<m_aero_max_rear_height value="-0.005" />
<m_aero_min_rear_height value="0.075" />

Basically it references this, which defines the height range of the downforce simulation. So the "0.0000" in the x column references the "-0.005" in the latter definition part. Hope that makes sense somehow. Why the original x column doesn't just use the actual ride height as reference, instead of a reference to a separate reference, I don't know, but it might be easier to change the ride height in testing if the whole x column doesn't have to be redone every time. Would certainly make my life easier though.

In the suspension data, these can be found. <MinHeight value="0.00" /> <MaxHeight value="0.09" /> They seem to specify the absolute height the car (or suspension) can be. They line up with the aero height reference, so thankfully it seems it's a 1:1, instead of another reference. As for what it means, I don't know. Seems to be an arbitrary value.

Take everything with a bag full of salt, I'm just a modder. No one told me what they mean, I'm just giving my best guess based on my own testing.
taattor
3 years ago
@ActuallyImJulie Thanks. Actually I wasn't 100% sure if it is for downforce by ride height, since often the game data states corresponding numbers for each values (i.e. revs/torque or grip/temp), and here I can't find any. Also, the code says lift (not downforce) which is the opposite to the downforce.

The ride height scale might be stated as following:
<m_aero_max_front_height value="-0.005" />
<m_aero_min_front_height value="0.075" />

Calculated to each height:
1 0.075
2 0.067
3 0.059
4 0.051
5 0.043
6 0.035
7 0.027
8 0.019
9 0.011
10 0.003
11 -0.05
(also applies to rear)

So I guess we would need some intensive research to find out everything? 🙂

We have a post by David about the downforce/drag generated by wings and the floor in certain conditions, which might also help?
taattor
3 years ago
@ActuallyImJulie oh you were writing at the same time! will take a look to your post first and edit my post if needed 🙂
ActuallyImJulie
3 years ago
@taattor I just want to point out, ride height in game is based on suspension rest length settings, not the aero scale.

1 0.05
2 0.053
3 0.056
4 0.059
5 0.062
6 0.065
7 0.068
8 0.071
9 0.074
10 0.077
11 0.08

This is why it would be easier for us if the x column referred to actual ride height instead of another reference, which isn't even the actual ride height definition.
taattor
3 years ago
@ActuallyImJulie You’re right. I was too impatient to find out. At least the aero value might be directly proportional to the each ride height value. What the aero value stands for, remains a mystery.

What I’m looking for is if it would be possible to calculate exact downforce / drag values for each wing and ride height combination by the numbers, instead of pure testing. That would help to faster build the setups for each track, depending on the track characteristics. Other setup modifications are then easily found out.

To be continued.
ActuallyImJulie
3 years ago
@taattor Well I agree, and I can't even imagine how many dozens of hours I could've saved if things were a bit more apparent. Unfortunately there's no way that I know of, but hopefully for all of us it can be figured out somehow. I think there is some debugging leftovers in the files, but you probably need a program or a dev version of the game to activate them. Just setting them to true certainly doesn't do anything.
Nuvolarix
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@ActuallyImJulie thank you one more time 🙂
Meza994
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@ActuallyImJulie Good that at least someone else here knows the files haha..

Yeah 100% correct there.. The only problem i have with these is how little downforce is lost when you increase the ride height.. After seeing all teams struggle to simply increase ride height to get rid of porpoising because "it would cost so much downforce" i can hardly believe its not making any meaningful difference on the rear downforce ingame...

Probably another "player friendly" method just like not giving us free choice of the tyres "because we might run out of tyres if we go stupid"..

Would be a better/more interesting way if the fall of in Downforce with increased ride height would be more like ~30-40% less downforce so you really have choose if you want to stick to the ground or want to be able to go over certain bumps better.. ideally with slight bottoming out at the highest downforce level so at tracks like Monaco/Singapore/Hungary you really have to choose - highest downforce with bad top speed but very bad on kerbs vs less downforce but less problems over kerbs...

But thats all just my thoughts on how it could be better, again you explained it more than sufficient :D
ActuallyImJulie
3 years ago
@Meza994 I agree completely, it's almost certainly done for casual players, or at least folks without a basic understanding of F1 aerodynamics, which... Fair enough, but no one is offering a product for us to compensate.
P4st3l1ak
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@ActuallyImJulie
Not everyone can be a F1 engineer like you 😉 Cut us some slack 😉
But I really appreciate your insights as I am trying to understand it more than just to copy someone else's setup 😉
But my head still spins a little when trying to read and understand ERP files 😉
ActuallyImJulie
3 years ago
@DavidG53 I've been looking at the regulations, and I would appreciate this being cleared up.
Is COMZ an actual value that can be interpreted directly as it appears? As in, 0.108 is 10.8% rearwards distribution, or alternatively 1.08%, or is it an arbitrary value? If it is 10.8%, is that a deliberate choice that was made, and if so, what is the limitation/is there a limitation that makes it unfavorable to follow the regulations instead? Is it following the regulations, and if so, what does the number actually mean?
The regulations specify (paraphrasing) the weight distribution must be no more than 54% rearwards in qualifying, measured at the rear axle.
ScarDuck14
Legend
3 years ago
@P4st3l1ak yup👍
ActuallyImJulie
3 years ago
@P4st3l1ak Well I'm no engineer, a little obsessed perhaps, but I just want the game to be the best it can be. As I said, it's fair enough that the game is simplified, it's targeted toward a general audience.

I just get frustrated when the underlying systems are in place to go more in depth, but it's not executed upon. An example being the floor, the rear is very consistent across the height range, which is highly incongurent with the real behavior. It doesn't have to be that way, it's could be more realistic, and to compensate, a baseline setup that's within the optimal range could be provided, but that is indeed more work.

Again, it's not neccessarily a problem in and of itself, but when there's no real alternative for someone like me or Meza, that's when I get frustrated.
ScarDuck14
Legend
3 years ago
@ActuallyImJulieFor me I’m glad Codemasters have resisted adding every adjustable setting option to the setups. However because they haven’t imo its more important every setup option makes sense and LLLL makes a noticeable difference RRRR
P4st3l1ak
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@ScarDuck14 wrote:
@ActuallyImJulieFor me I’m glad Codemasters have resisted adding every adjustable setting option to the setups. However because they haven’t imo its more important every setup option makes sense and LLLL makes a noticeable difference RRRR
I am with you, @ScarDuck14 , because it would be confusing for general population.
However, it would be a nice option for those who would like to dive in into it. But I guess it would require a rebuild of the whole logic and UI engine.
But some advice from in-game engineer on setting up the car based on driving style would be nice to have. I guess the game can collect telemetry (as it provides it to external tools) and run some simple analysis (e.g. to reduce tyre overheating/wear, increase/decrease ride heights due to damage to underbody, etc.)
ScarDuck14
Legend
3 years ago
@P4st3l1ak I’ve been constantly banging on about having a proper in game race engineer to help with setups since 2021 was released. And it can be done and has been done. F1 championship edition was released around the same time as PS3.

During practice sessions. Your race engineer would properly explain what every setting did. Such as camber etc Then you would do a lap with car setup on default. Then each following lap you would dial in my each setting. So first would be camber and toe. Then wings…. It was basic but it worked well and you would be the end have a setup for every track. I say basic but I’m sure it also gave you a rundown on the current track and the type off setup that best suited each track
It would also explain how to set car up for wet weather.

All from a game 15Ish years old
P4st3l1ak
Seasoned Ace
3 years ago
@ScarDuck14
you're their Champion now so I hope they will start to listen to you properly 😉
And that would definitely help inexperience gamers to get more fun from the game.
ScarDuck14
Legend
3 years ago
@P4st3l1akFunny enough it was EA who made me a champion. And have been really good to me😯 I know I know😂. If Codemasters were aware I’m sure they would have objected.
I bet @BarryBL is happy he got a new position. If he could see me now he’d be screaming louder than LeCrash at France😀
Mikulitsi
New Adventurer
3 years ago
@ScarDuck14 wrote:
@P4st3l1akI’ve been constantly banging on about having a proper in game race engineer to help with setups since 2021 was released. And it can be done and has been done. F1 championship edition was released around the same time as PS3.

During practice sessions. Your race engineer would properly explain what every setting did. Such as camber etc Then you would do a lap with car setup on default. Then each following lap you would dial in my each setting. So first would be camber and toe. Then wings…. It was basic but it worked well and you would be the end have a setup for every track. I say basic but I’m sure it also gave you a rundown on the current track and the type off setup that best suited each track
It would also explain how to set car up for wet weather.

All from a game 15Ish years old

Yeah it's actually amazing how F1 2006/CE had this while none of the newer games have it... I'd love to have this back
DavidG53
EA Staff (Retired)
3 years ago
@ActuallyImJulie Sorry I have been very busy at work.

I wish it was so simple to answer it.. but 0 is dead on centre if you have like in our car, for comodity, wheel base split in 2.. 1.8 1.8..

Now if you take 53% of 1.8 - 47% of 1.8.. you get 0.108.. this will put the cog 0.108 towards the rear, effectively making the distribution 47-53
ActuallyImJulie
3 years ago
@DavidG53 Thank you for the explanation, it really has been bugging me for years. I didn't quite understand how to do the calculation, so what would the distribution of e.g. Alpine be in this case, they are set to 0.09.

Aside from that, is the measurement point for the distribution at the front and rear axle, or the very edges of the car?

Thank you, and good luck with your work. ●ᴗ●
DavidG53
EA Staff (Retired)
3 years ago
@ActuallyImJulie axle.. because that is where the forces are applied.