[Suggestion] F1 2023 (or F1 20xx) - ERS Model Overhaul

@john_dragnst Meza can be very grating, sorry about that. There seems to be some misconceptions here some mix ups – and the media coverage over "party mode" ban certainly didn't help, it took a while until some proper pieces were written about that.

What got banned was the changing of ICE modes during competitive laps. Basically the various different matrixes of ignition times and fuel/air ratios that the combustion engine can work with. These are now set for the whole quali and race session, but the teams can still run and play with them pretty much as they please on practice sessions and so on. They used to be combined with different ERS deployment maps too, but ERS modes were not banned and drivers are free to switch from different ERS modes during the race. The ERS side of things is restricted only by the max 4MJ/lap ES > MGU-K deployment and 2MJ/lap MGU-K > ES harvesting, with ES <> MGU-H being unlimited. Teams still run different ERS mappings to make good use of those boundaries and work the SoC accordingly to their ongoing strategy, but granted they're changed only a few times during their stints.

Apart from the regs, that is also clear from those annotated onboard lap videos we often see in the community:

• Verstappen changing from recharge to a push mode on his Q3 pole lap at Abu Dhabi 2021 then back to recharge;
• Alonso engaging and disengaging recharge mode and other settings during formation lap in Abu Dhabi 2021

Formation laps have free use of pace car engine modes too, but from the dash you can see how they've still got a good range of modes mapped to their rotary dials. There's also the occasional radio talk that's easy to spot if you have F1 TV. The ERS harvest mode is actively used, but there's also different push modes and the default one for what Mercedes calls "neutral laps" I think. It's only the combustion engine side of things that were banned by the FIA.

This is all regulated by the fabled Technical Directive 37, but as far as I know TDs are released only for the teams, they're not publicly available. 

Regarding the ERS "sound", Meza threw a curve ball with that one and I'll leave it up to him to explain how he can hear the ERS in sound mix. As far as I know, and to that extent I agree with you, you'll never hear the ERS working per se, only the effects of its state on certain components. Examples from the top of my head:

• You'll obviously hear the ICE revving up as the wheel speed increases with the MGU-K deploying power, but the latter is connected directed to the crankshaft (it's linked after the engine in the power train series) so it does not really change the functioning of the combustion engine;
• What the exhaust mic captures is the wastegate state and what you hear is mainly it being opened releasing pressure while the MGU-H drives the turbo. So again, a consequence of the ERS working rather than its sounds – the wastegate can be opened in other scenarios regardless of the MGU-H state, so it's incorrect to think of it as an ERS sound.

I guess it's mainly the latter that Meza was referring to, but it's up to him to clarify what "ERS sounds" he had in mind. 

By the way, yes, the ERS does take throttle position into account when deploying power so I do not get his point here either. From all I know it even goes beyond the basic on/off throttle state, working with what they call throttle demand instead of throttle position strictly speaking, but that taps onto how these cars have different throttle maps even on a driver per driver basis so let's leave it at that. But yes, the ordinary ERS map will consider throttle demand, gear, engine speed, and wheel speed when deploying power or driving the turbine. 

@Meza994 do you have or used to have an iRacing subscription? Or access to their forums in another way? You're playing this "W12 in iRacing" card so often yet... Not saying you're wrong, but can you elaborate on that instead of treating it like a trump card? Why are you assuming that it is the real deal? Take for example Mercedes' James Vowles interview to iRacing own Downshift podcast, episode 40. He goes on with detail on how the partnership came to be and how it panned out. Basically:

• Mercedes provided "broad spectrum ideas and some car data";
• iRacing put out the car model;
• Mercedes' Anthony Davidson (who is still their main simulator driver) and esports drivers Opmeer and Moreno (I think?) tested it out and said it was realistic;
• There are still areas Vowles think they need to work on, like their tyre model.

It is misguiding to say it was made by Mercedes. It's an iRacing product made in collaboration with Merc. Even your "NASCAR expert" Jarno Opmeer was involved in the colab 🤣

By all accounts it does seem to be a pretty good rendition of a F1 car, but unless you can back that a given thing was indeed included in the "broad spectrum ideas" and "some car data" Mercedes provided, I don't think you should be so liberally associating the iRacing and the real deal. Even more so when you often play that other card about Codemasters being casual games or the like and we shouldn't expect realism from them.

@mariohomohI dont know why some things need to be explained for little kids.. I explained that i mean the engine working differently producing a different exhaust sound..

ERS not being deployed when off throttle is truly shocking😱 How far it goes on differing depending on the throttle demand is tough to gauge - especially if even you can only say "from all you know".. In the end it doesnt matter much for this conversation as this as much as throttle maps in general will never be a thing in the game (wouldnt call the controller settings a throttle map)

Well it depends on who talks about the W12.. Some said it was in very close cooperation with Merc to get the details and with their actual simulator driver saying its realistic thats fair game IMO

And as i see you are still whining over Opmeer having the knowledge of how F1 cars should handle.. You should really let this one go buddy, when you dont understand an analogy its pointless to keep on going.

Well what do we have in comparison? The iRacing Merc is the closest thing to the real car that there is in any sim/game. I dont know what the realism part about the game has to do with it either.. Compare the F1 games with any actual sim and yeah stop complaining about my opinion lol.. Of course its not a NFS or whatever - although some expect those physics for the Supercars😂 but criticizing me for taking the iRacing W12 a million times over the Codemasters W12 is actual childish buddy.

I like your insights and general thoughts but you should really let it go that Codemasters aim to get the cars as close as possible to real life. They try to make it entertaining and accessible for casuals while also creeping closer to the real thing. Its not a comparison and not an insult to Codemasters, just completely different goals. And also let it go that Opmeer knows how the current F1 cars handle because he drove Formula Renault.. Like really dont try to keep this one going

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@Meza994 wrote:

@mariohomohI dont know why some things need to be explained for little kids..

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You're being a douche, mate. While I love discussing anything motorsports pretty much everywhere, lately I'm finding myself refraining from chiming in in any discussions that you're taking part just for how you're treating others. The quoted part isn't the first time in this thread alone, for days now I'm seeing you being unnecessarily callous with others in this forum.

I like you, Meza, but I honestly don't remember you ever being this * before.

Even now with these new ERS talking points, for how much I wanted to keep the debate going, your attitude towards other members here got to the point of putting me off. You were not this disrespectful before.

@mariohomohFIA ban's change of PU mode, ERS is in the PU. It's now forbidden to have different map for ICE. Slow laps (in and out-laps during qualifying, formation lap, laps under safety car and lap after chequered flag) are exceptions, driver can change engine mode to increase harvesting of his ERS. During competitive lap, driver can only use overtake button to change mapping of the ERS that change only how the ERS is deploy and have no effect on the ICE.
In the videos you quoted, the changes of ERS mode are always during this slow lap. As qualifying is an other session than race, I guess there is a special qualify mode where the ERS deploy the 4 MJ/lap instead of the 2 MJ/lap map during the race.
As Taffin said few years ago, I think ERS deploy 2 MJ/lap each lap during the race, whatever the mode you use (normal or overtake) and overtake use it only at different moment like I tried to explain. Normal is the best for the lap time, overtake give more max speed but slower lap time. Harvesting is limited by rules at 2 MJ/lap. We all know it's technically possible to harvesting and deploy a lot more since it's in discussion for the next engine regulation that will decrease fuel consumption and increase ERS usage.
Discussion on the radio are strange. Sometimes a driver say his tires are gone but it purple the lap just after 😉 Seriously... it's code talking... because FIA say driver have to drive alone and asking to the driver to change engine mode is considered by an assist and strictly forbidden. Also, during Alonso formation lap video you quoted, engineer give instruction before the race and not during the formation lap as it's strictly forbidden exactly like I said. Only exception is for reliability after FIA approve.

As I say, ERS as it in game or as Meza994 want it is unrealistic. There is none technical harvesting limitation and no deploy limitation in the current state of rules, only rules limitations. So there is no reason to save ERS to using it more later... you can't harvesting more than 2MJ and deploy more than 2MJ so balance is 0.

@GrandDragnYou got that one wrong, mate. Only ICE modes changing got banned, ERS modes are still free to switch. Perhaps if you could link us your source we could clear up the noise?

As I said, you can get a good picture of what is going on if you've got a F1 TV subscription. Clips of in-race battles with ERS changing beyond the mere press of the overtake button are quite common too but they get taken down quickly. Anyway I'll try to link one here whenever one pops in my radar.

Now if you've got a way to access the full race videos, I can point you out to some examples. From the Spanish GP:

• 27'36 Lap 13 Lambiase: "strat 12 in the pit lane" and Max proceeds to change the engine mode dial

• 27'53" Lap 14 Lambiase: "strat 8, strat 8. Torque 9" and Max proceeds with the 2 instructed adjustments
• 29'06" Lap 14 Hugh Bird: "PU 8, position 4. PU 8, position 4 plus 2" – unfortunately though F1 TV won't give be the onboard footage, it's stuck in that front wing side camera for some reason!
• 29'51" Lap 14 Hugh Bird: "Mode 6 when you [someting]. Mode 6" – same.
• 30'43" Lap 14 Lambiase: "mode 7, Max" and Max moves his hands to perform the changes but spends most of the straight smashing the DRS button 🤣
• 1:27:08 Lap 53 Bird: "Strat 8. strat 8. Ok, this will be your shot at fastest lap" and Checo fiddles with the engine rotaty dial:

Besides that I know that at least Racefans has an ongoing archive of the radio highlights and you can see plenty of mentions to changing strats and modes.

The ruling states that the same ICE modes are locked for quali and race sessions. They're free to change other PU parameters – ERS modes, engine braking, torque etc. – but not the engine maps.

Can you please link us to the Taffin piece you speak about? Other than that, there's plenty of discussion on the famous F1 Technical forums and even the F1 Technical Subreddit, you'll often see Scarbs on both of them. That's if you don't mind some tech heavy talk, otherwise you'll also see this being discussed on the regular Formula 1 Reddit.

Edit: Just to clarify, the F1 Technical are kind of legendary. You'll see plenty of people working all around the motorsport industry in there. The respective subreddit is also great and nicely moderated. Depending on what platform you use, you'll see that some users have special tags informing they're verified members of the industry (PU guys, aerodynamicists, gearbox guys, guys from the supply chain, etc) or from the media (as I said, Scarbs is in there). This verification is done by the moderation team.

Sorry for the double posting but I guess this warrants a space of its own. I'll just refer to a few quality posts of the F1 Technical subreddit from verified users:

From a verified F1 Performance Engineer about PU modes, ICE modes and the TD 37/20 ban:

From the same user and the same discussion, going a bit in detail about how the PU supplying side of things works. That's maybe not as common knowledge as it should, but all customer teams have at least one PU guy from the engine supplier and most if not all PU settings must be validated by them before use. The teams do not have full and unabridged access to all the PU parameters. You'll often hear about this being discussed by the F1 tech guys and personnel in interviews, podcasts and such.

Dig deep enough and you'll even find direct quotes from the TD 37 itself even though it wasn't publicly disclosed by the FIA, as usual.