@mcsupersport wrote:What is Bioware trying to say about men in the game?? Take on these ideas and say "WHAT??"
1) Liam, straight love interest....basically an idiot and totally doesn't make sense based on his history or jobs.
2) Drak...Man's Man character..raised his grand-daughter, but is a relic of the past and will soon die.
3) Hark...krogan scientist, incredibly smart, but can't fight, isn't tough..aka would be called a wimp...gets the girl in the end, and is called the Future of Krogan.
4) Spender....human weasel...just a low life piece of self serving trash...
5) Number 8.....incompetent and while in charge isn't someone you trust.
6) Jaal...good fighter, smart, tough but always talking about feelings, opposite of Drak in he is fairly young and has a future.
7) Alec....ruthless, caring...DIES...
8) Gil...homosexual romance....smart, not a planner, effective in keeping the ship going.
Now look at the women....
8) Cora....male love interest....effective, trained, good looking, powerful, SHOULD have been pathfinder.
9) Lexi...smart, good looking, trained, educated, effective, doctor who keeps you all alive.
10) Vetra..smart, trained, effective, supplies trip and gets troubles out of your way.
11) Peebee...love interest....young, smartest in the room on Remanent, effective, powerful.
12) Kesh...smart, effective, tough, respected, keeps station alive.
13) Suvi....smart, absent minded but that is because of her extreme intelligence, educated, and effective as science officer.
So what patterns do you see, and what can you take from it???
Me, it seems like someone is trying to say something.....but you decide. HMMMMM???
Well, I decided that you picked and interpreted the things that you felt supported your theory, some of which didn't make any sense to me. You also presume that what you are interpreting are things that you think women like, which therefore means it's SJW...which is, in both aspects...well, presumptuous, don't you think? Your opinion is your own, of course, and everyone interprets things as they like.
Liam: Not my cuppa tea, but different and funny. I didn't have too much of a problem with him until his loyalty mission. The security officer engaged in a massive breach of security. In my book that made him reckless and irresponsible. Really couldn't look at him as anything else after that. The mission itself was funny though.
Drack: What's wrong with him? He's wise as krogan go, and funny. I enjoyed listening to him banter with Vetra. Unless you wanna interpret old as bad and only SJWs would like crusty old people. Maybe don't watch Logan's Run. I wonder why that was never remade... they remade just about everything else from the 70's.
Hark: took me a good five minutes to even remember who that was, but if hyper aggression brought the krogan to the brink of annihilation multiple times, a less aggressive one by definition will be the future of their people.
Spender: Yup. He's a racist weasel.
Tann: Yup. He's a political weasel.
Jaal: I guess I figured he wasn't talking about his feelings unless you were playing SisRyder. I did like the character's openness - the anti-Alenko.
Alec: I'm more of the opinion that Ryder Sr. died because he was an N7 - symbolically killed off by the writers in the beginning of a new series to make way for the new protagonist. No more N7 for you, fans! Wish they hadn't done that. I'd have had more fun playing a DadRyder or MomRyder I think.
Gil, the anti-Kallo: He's a bit shortsighted and impulsive, really
Kallo, the anti-Gil: He's a bit too rigid, really
But I like them both - funny, talented engineers keeping the ship in one piece.
Cora: I like Cora, but she's a follower, and has never taken her own initiative and been a leader. That's why DadRyder passed her over - she wasn't ready. She spends the entire game telling you about how she needs to look to somebody else's guidance or opinion, or strategies.
Lexi: It's hard to think of Lexi as pretty since the devs made her appearance so completely interchangeable. Looks like every other asari except Peebee. She's a bit awkward, but I like her.
Vetra: Yup. FemGarrus. Well, softened up a bit by a kid sister.
Peebee: FemLiam. Also cooled her heels in my games. I wanted to cycle the airlock in the escape pod she was blocking, really, but there was no option to space her. I will say I got a mod that removed that ridiculous raccoon mask, and I am no longer annoyed as much.
Kesh: I like her. There was a severe shortage of krogan females, or any krogans portrayed as smart in the series.
Suvi: You forgot to mention she is a homosexual romance option as well. Also a likeable sort, sciencing the snot out of things for the team. I like the conversations with her, but otherwise *shrug*
Other forgotten honorable mentions:
Addison: She's a mean spirited bureaucrat who didn't appeal any more than Tann. Her face is tired...I was tired of the character a good 15 seconds after I encountered her, but antagonists are there to be interesting foils in character interactions.
Sloan: Arrogant, tyrannical, evil/brutal weasel. I'm told that in the books, her character's motivations make her a lot more sympathetic, but I will probably never read them and would space her too, given the option. She reminds me of Aria, and she needed spacing a few games ago.
Reyes: Dishonest, self-serving untrustworthy weasel someone thought would be charming. And, stuck me with the bill. Still, I think he's likely to be better for Kadara in power. Just don't trust him not to shoot you in the head if it serves his purpose.
Kandros: Wish we could take him on the mission squads, but we only hear him in MP. When it's not bugged out.
"Drack: What's wrong with him? He's wise as krogan go, and funny. I enjoyed listening to him banter with Vetra. Unless you wanna interpret old as bad and only SJWs would like crusty old people. Maybe don't watch Logan's Run. I wonder why that was never remade... they remade just about everything else from the 70's."
Oh, not a darn thing wrong with him, other than they make it plain he is a relic of times past and that he is going to die soon....well soon for Krogan lifetimes anyway. The point I was trying and it seems failing to make with him, is they make sure, you KNOW he is a relic and thus something from times past who is past due on checking out. I love Drak the character, he was in my team like 90% of the time my first play and still creeps back in more than he should when I am trying to use different characters for each play. I would both hate and like to see a new Logan's Run....like because I think they could do so much with it....hate it cause some snot of a director in Hollywood would just "KNOW" how to make it better and likely mess it up, and ruin the message it gave.
Yeah, forgot Suvi romance....
The one thing that really sold me on Sloan, was she was all up front on what she was doing. If she didn't like you, you knew it, and you knew her rules because they were out there and known. Sloan also was pretty happy with Kadara and keeping "Her" people alive and while her methods were brutal, they were effective. Many people have/had an issue with the idea of protection money to be paid, but I can understand it, as that is a fairly primitive form of taxation, which works, but there are better ways. Reyes....sigh, he wants to be great, and I could easily see him causing major issues for the Nexus in a few years as he expands his network and interests well beyond Kadara. Reyes is also a two faced snake, and I will NEVER side with him in any of my games, even if you see in the end it is better seemingly for Kadara if you do, as a more open and free port......I just always wonder what he is going to go for next? I could easily see him as Shadowbroker 2.0.
Please don't get me started on Addison...Honestly, the first time she and Tann said ANYTHING bad to me after Eos, I would have been on the coms working to have them replaced by any means necessary, as pathfinder prerogative, for the good of the Initiative.
Liam...the issue I had with him was he was supposed to be a Crisis response recruit, ex-cop and security expert. This was his background. Crisis response SHOULD have meant he was calm, logical, efficient, adaptable, and Ex-cop and security expert should have meant he was all those things along with a bit cynical, and cautious with information. Now in game, as I am sure you are aware, he was erratic, prone to losing his temper and not thinking situations through, yeah, massive security breach on a whim, caused Ryder to try to commit intellectual property theft on a alien world who allowed them there on a trial basis which is incredibly reckless. I know Liam is part of the pathfinder team, but what the heck is a SECURITY team member doing trying to handle trade of technology and with Jaal cultural integration?? He should be concentrating on basic needs of planets, such as water, food, and medical distribution, not stealing stuff from neighbors which could cause a diplomatic nightmare and shut off access to a valuable ally and their planet of supplies. He should be designing safety measures for colonies, and action plans for them, not giving out free access to Nexus systems for some nebulous good will. Basically his character didn't make ANY sense to me in his actions throughout the game based off his history given and supposed job description. That is why I think he and Vetra should have swapped positions and let him be the supply person and Vetra be the crisis response and security person. Also the shirtless scenes both with Jaal and later just seemed to be an obvious ploy to cater to women gamers, as they really didn't make sense to me in the story context. I am hetro-male, so I can't offer a decent critique of how it looked, but it almost seemed to me as a make-up for the Miranda Butt scene from ME2....but I think Miranda's butt is better...lol.
Main point I was trying to show with the list is a bit how they wrote male versus female characters, while seemingly trying to cater to women gamers, and possibly wider interests. Aggressive hyper capable men are relics, or in Jaals case really in touch with emotional side. Men are generally shown in a worse light, versus how they portray women. As it seems they go to greater lengths to NOT have a barbie doll character that is beautiful and dumb woman category.....ie they really don't have a female Liam(if you find him attractive, I know they wanted him to be). This may just be how the story shakes out, or it may be an effort.....I like the debate.
As to why this part of my post....it is fun, both to see what others think, to show patterns of people's actions, which may or may not be intended. It is also a way to also show and highlight how different people think and spark debate. Healthy debate enriches and enlightens all who participate....emphasis on HEALTHY debate.
So have fun....continue or not, but enjoy it either way.
I think the disconnect is primarily how things get interpreted, and perspective.
I didn't get any sense that Drak or DadRyder were symbolic of manly-men being put out to pasture, or taken out back to be put down like Old Yeller. I saw nothing of a conspiracy for both the female characters to not be attractive enough, and the male characters to be attractive, therefore, SJW. I don't see Barbie's Dream Ark, here... just a game in a top tier franchise that was treated negligently by the developer.
I thought the scan/graphic fails were almost universal, except for some key skins. Like so many other games before, there are mods to prettify characters more to your liking, and cover up/expose bits that you are troubled by. Trust me, I frequent the Nexus Mods site, and I know there are a great many mods to change character appearances and clothing levels more to a gamer's liking. I infer nothing about the nature of the majority of those mod changes to female characters, nor automatically equate those who use them with people who see the SJW boogeyman under the bed everywhere. But I will say the irony is not lost on me.
There were indeed strong female characters, but there were in the previous installations as well, which like charcter creator fails have never been identified as part of the grand conspiracy. If people were going to freak out over the potential elimination of the "man's man", the concept of asari should have done it ten years ago. BioWare writers made it clear that in their future the most advanced race in the galaxy found men to be utterly unnecessary. I don't recall anyone getting so upset about the asari. Perhaps it's ok since they're attractive? People freaked out more over the side-nudity in the before-Ilos romance (which, again ironically, probably did more to sell the game).
I am still amused that some feel that there needs to be an apology or explanation of any sort for strong female characters. Is it troubling enough that we need to do a gender headcount and role interpretation to see if the split is something more than 50/50? If it is, the humor of that irony is not lost on me either.
If it is really troubling, I can recommend what I've done since I first picked up a game controller - vote with your wallet. Since the Commodore64, if there was a game that I found annoying or offensive, whatever the reason - I just didn't buy it. If the game had neither sexist, nor racist undertones, but just lacked normal female characters, well, hell... I've played a lot of those. If you feel your gender in some way has been habitually portrayed as weak, inferior, secondary, overly sexualized or dependent on others, the old fashioned term is "sexist". And with the span of video games I have seen or played over the decades as the backdrop to my perspective as a straight female gamer - I didn't see it here.
PS: When I reached the armor swap scene in the game I started to lmao. Because it was just funny.
Maybe I am sensitive to it, maybe I am just tired of hearing about people wanting equality or any of the other bs things running around the political sphere. I do vote with my wallet on most things, but for Bioware, in the last 10 years plus, have been a buy and don't bother checking out much before, list inhabitant. Bioware has generally speaking put out game of a high enough quality that I didn't bat a eye at pre-orders and NOT looking at stuff until after release. They have messed up in the past, but generally speaking their games are still worth the money even when they mess them up....DA2 and MEA as examples gave me hundreds of hours playing time even though they aren't the best Bioware has offered and I even bought the DLC for DA2 when they released and not as a bundle later. Maybe it is the reviewers I have listened too after the poostorm that MEA became due to the graphical choices and such on release.
I personally just get tired of hearing the talking heads talk about how games "objectify" women and are sexist, and yet they have no issue with a scene such as trading armors, or when the big tough warrior is dumb as a stump and can only say..."Wraaa, KILL!!" Somehow the warrior is OK, cause it doesn't harm men, yet a shot of Mirranda's butt is a travesty and hurts all women making them all be exploited. I just hate the hypocrisy of certain people who say "this is bad, EXCEPT for when it goes the other way...."
Personally I could easily see it as a combination in MEA, both a desire to attract more women gamers by not making it a Barbie Doll ship, and a total FUBAR of the art and graphical department. It may only be 2% of the first and 98% of the latter and at this point it really doesn't matter. Like I said though, it is fun to get others perceptions and insights to broaden horizons, mine in particular.
Personally I love strong female characters, and as a quirk of my nature, I love playing Female leads. Tomb Raider reboot, Female Shepards, Female Skyrim characters, and Female Ryders, just to name a few. If they offer a female option for a game, I am often choosing it and many times it is my first option to run through a game. I love Samara, Cassandra, Miranda, later Liara, Cora, and generally speaking rebooted LCroft. Whiny females in real life and in games often get on my last nerve, with me wanting to tell them to grow the heck up.
LOL, I remember the hoopla over the side nudity in ME1, it brought the game to my attention, and when I realized it was Bioware who had made Jade Empire and other games I loved, I bought it as soon as I could on PC. I still have to laugh over the idea that they thought only kids played video games, and since I was 36 at the time it was going down, I couldn't figure out why they should care what I played. It had a mature rating on the box IIRC so, what was the issue, lol, man that helped their sales though....I also loved the easter egg in the Asteroid DLC that you could find that referred to that whole hoopla.
On ME series, I don't usually mod them, but I have modded extensively my Skyrim game, and while I went through a phase not too long after I started modding it of boob armor, and such, I fairly quickly grew tired of about 99% of it and removed it to a more classical and accurate version of armor for females. I do like the characters to be good looking in general....that is why I play video games and watch movies, not to see reality most times but fantasy lives...but they don't have to be supersexoutcrazybusty mode, they just really should be better than what we got with tired faced MEA.
Last point of the night before bed...
One reason the SJW line is so easy to say and is in fact the low hanging fruit line, is from past games to now, it seems to be a trend in Bioware games, of the women getting less classically pretty while the men often trend towards the better looking. Along with not having "objectifying women" scenes, while often having scenes that if women were involved would raise eyebrows. This is most likely a desire to cater to more women gamers, and simply bringing in a balance to the games between women and men. It is only when you add the horrible graphics choices for character creator and female faces throughout MEA, that it becomes easy in the Political Correct world we are living in, to stand up and say it is SJW's fault and Bioware is "caving" to those "World Wrecking Fiends!!!"" DUNDUNDUUUUUUUU!!!! I just hope for the future, Bioware goes back to putting the effort into their games that brought them to my "BUY NOW" list and all this goes away because they make such fantastic games.
The SJW issue is often explained in too simplistic an approach and additionally there is the mixing of issues or groups that aren't necessarily in full agreement with each other.
Someone just mentioned the idea of objectifying women. Well, I have some gay people in my direct vicinity and they tell me that objectifying men is definitely a thing in the gay community and there is a lot of stuff going on with eating disorders and such as a consequence. I cannot judge this and I'll have to take their word for it, but I also hear from women that they look at guys also when it comes to their physique so there as soon as we're talking about sexual interest, it seems pretty common across all groups that there is some level of objectification going on.
So what that would mean to me is that for example gay or lesbian players would also like love interests that are good looking and fit as the term goes.
Then there is the issue of emphasizing those physical elements that are sexually attractive itself. But that's another element than LGBTQ issues. There are women that hate "perfect" looking characters for whatever reasons and they put that under the header of objectification and submissiveness alike. I'm not sure how others feel about Miranda for example but she's hardly a push over in my book and aside from her genetically engineered body, she actually did have character and struggles on a personal level so I don't think even there she was just about objectification.
I also found the concept of EDI walking around in Dr Coré's body an interesting idea that touched on topics about AI and robots in our society which is becoming a reality quickly. So I find it a shame that characters like that are so easily dismissed as negative.
There is of course a lot of diversity out there in the real world and I think it's difficult for a game maker to match that diversity and still create characters that appeal to a larger player base...they do want to sell games in the end. What i mean is that probably 70-80% of the players are straight and most of them probably want "hot" companions and well that also means human males or females as companions that fit that bill. However, there are also other players that need to be considered and BioWare has done that increasingly with Mass Effect and Dragon Age.
The problem, in my view, starts when all those groups are seen as equal size groups. There is of course a limited group of love interests and they have expanded beyond the actual companions to meet some of these interests. There is male, female, androgynous (for lack of a better term). There is straight and non straight. There is human and alien and even within the human group there is the colour issue that is also a factor. Then there is the issue on how good looking they are "allowed" to be.
That's a LOT of factors to try to manage and the problem is that you have a very limited group of npc characters to work with. And I think with all their best of intentions, they can't really win this. I think ME3 worked best because it had a lot of variations in there that appealed to the vast majority of the player base.
And in Andromeda they did create a lot of diversity but it didn't appeal to a lot of the player base because like it or not, most players and I should say people are straight and also I believe that most players straight or not, still like the idea of good-looking companions.
So it really is a great challenge for them to get the mix right and still have enough of an appeal for most players in there. I suspect (but we'll find out soon enough) that for example Anthem may not have love interests. Not even sure if we'll have companions at all. And part of the reason might be because it's such an impossible thing to get right.
I think it's fantastic that BioWare tries to recognize diversity where it can, but I also know that they struggle because it makes it extremely difficult to still keep the largest part of their player base happy when trying to cater to too many splinter wishes. It'd be nice if they could but I don't think that's realistic for them to do because there is that same reality that the majority of paying customers are straight males and you can't blame them for what they are either.
And where it's politically correct to take everybody into account, financially it's not possible. So unless they find some clever way to increase the diversity without alienating their majority of players, I fear that BioWare will likely avoid the whole thing but it garners them more complaints no matter what they do. It may not make me popular but I think there is wisdom in looking at the larger picture and not just at what I want and what offends me. As stated, I think ME3 had the best mix so far, since it also introduced male on male romance but with more recent games I think they missed the mark because they went too far in trying to please too many splinter groups at the same time. They do need to make money in the end and I for one believe that BioWare is a company that had already gone out of their way to embrace diversity but that it shouldn't come at the cost of their ability to make money or they will no longer be able to make any games at all.
So we'll see, but I'm very interested to see how they deal with love interests in Anthem because I have this feeling that may simply not be part of that game. Guess we may find out at EA Play in a few weeks.
But anyone who cries diversity and objectification should take care not to cry too easily and to realise that even though a minority voice should be heard, they shouldn't lose track of the bigger picture that means catering to other groups as well that are bigger and therefore are important as customers. I personally feel that BioWare either forgot or incorrectly hoped that it would work.
I just think that if there are only two female human love interests one of which is straight only and the other lesbian only then I think you missed the mark for the majority of players. And that's just one element. I saw a poll of around 1500 people on reddit that is quite interesting to see https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/668o0r/mea_spoilers_mass_effect_andromeda_romance_survey/
Bottom line is that I support diversity but not when it's done disproportionally and I think that everybody who's had a look at it can see that in Andromeda it's disproportionate to what people are generally interested in. The interesting thing is that it probably wouldn't have taken much to rebalance it.
Oh well, it's just my views and people can agree or disagree but I think that BioWare will have to do something different in future games or it will remain an incessant stream of criticism of unhappy players and might lead to more people avoiding the whole romance thing...and then it might not be worth it to them to do it at all.
Well thought out, and I loved the thread you listed and the data contained once you opened the spoiler section at the top.
There is a whole lot of data collected by that thread on love interests and who was popular. I know EA/Bioware should have this kind of info from data collected in game but even still, I would hope they at least glance at this thread when they look into their next love interest for games.
One of my takes on the linked thread was how much a disappointment Liam was as a romance character considering his screen time and obvious push towards Ryder. Liam's highest percentage of romancing among all groups, was 9.6% with Hetero and Bi-sexual females. This group WAS the one they were looking to have him romance and he only managed to bring in a little under one in ten women. This to me is a writing issue along with maybe an art issue as it showed Bioware didn't create a character people wanted to romance. Since they did better with Peebee and Cora on the male side, I have to wonder if they either didn't consult enough with women in what they wanted or consulted the wrong ones(too agenda driven or biased) to get information to appeal to the majority(Or maybe he was written by a straight guy who has no clue what women actually want.....). They did manage to get it right seemingly with Reyes romance for Hetero females, but he falls to Peebee for Bi-sexual females....which makes me wonder if hetero females "settled" for him or if he was that good an option for them.
I also wonder if Bioware in Anthem is going to have any romance....but then I also wonder how much story they are going to have in Anthem as well. Story takes time, effort and for a game like they are leaking Anthem to be, continued effort in creating ongoing story.....and I don't know if they will bother and instead just make it more combat/exploration/event driven game. I know it would drive me crazy to have to balance all the different groups and people to try and make them happy so they don't savage my games and still make most gamers happy enough to buy my current game and future games. According to surveys, LGBTQ people survey out to be 3-5% of the population, and I don't know the % of them as gamers. Female gamers in games like ME and DA are usually around 30% of the gamer population BUT Bioware usually pulls a higher percentage(DAI pulled almost 50% women) and more women are gaming now than ever before. Historically males were 90% plus, but that has changed over the years, and now depending on the type of game women can make anywhere between 5% and 70% of the games player base. I don't think I could balance and keep happy the mix of gamers that Bioware draws....I would end up ticking a group or three off and causing bankruptcy if I was in charge of it.
I think the biggest issues come when agendas override the story content. By this I mean, you design a game to cater to a certain agenda instead of making a great story and if it also furthers your agenda that is ok, but not the point. I watched a video recently on some of this and they used Dorian from DAI as one example, and Steve Cortez from ME3 as the other. They basically said, Steve Cortez was obviously written as a Gay love interest character that had a minimal story and Dorian was an interesting character, with a deep character who just happened to be gay. The team of ME3 "needed" a gay character so they cobbled together Steve Cortez, while the DAI team wrote an interesting character and backstory for someone who just also happened to be gay. The point in DAI was the story, and the point in ME3 was the character. This idea is one I can fully understand and after looking at both, I can agree on. I know I have often complained about doing thing "just because" in games and how it hurts the story....whether it is sex, sex scenes, violence, blood, or language used, don't do it unless it makes sense for the story. In previous threads I had complained about the ME2,3 love scenes because Bioware seemed to want mature content, then chickened out in the end and threw underwear on, which didn't make sense in the story. I said you should either show what you made, ie people in bed without underwear, people taking showers naked, OR fade to black and just imply what happened, because the half measure hurt the story. They(BIoware) actually did both in MEA.....and people still complained, so lose lose for them.......and I really liked that they in the end chose to honor their story.
Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me of Dorian. Even though I'm not generally interested in gay male love interests myself, I have to agree that he's probably the most interesting out of all the new companions in DA:I. Since I only played it through on a mage, he wasn't the ideal companion for me to bring along but yeah, now that you mention it, I do remember him being the only one that really had an interesting personality at least from my point of view.
I think I was also really disappointed that Leliana was there but no longer a companion and not romanceable either but anyways.
I dunno, I have a lot of criticism but really I just want to love these games and it's just disappointing when things get botched up in unnecessary ways. Also like you said it feels like they are more doing it for out of game purposes (agenda) than in game purposes.
Overall I have this feeling that Anthem will not really be in the line of Mass Effect so Andromeda is not exactly ending on a high note. I haven't given up hope on Mass Effect coming back at some point but in the meantime, yeh, there are a few things that could've made Andromeda a whole lot better and I guess I wished they hadn't gotten the game in the development hell it ended up in.
