FICTION | The one who we love to hate. Who?
I'd like to discuss with you guys, who are that character you want so badly to keep with you until the end, because you so want to kick their a** so bad. That character we love to hate, because they ...
Forum Discussion
@fudgietroll wrote:
To use this on a sentient race, to even create it for that purpose, shows that you either regard that race as nothing more than animals or that you have such an utter lack of "humanity" that you make AdolphHitler look good.
I'm actually surprised that the Krogan didn't come up with a version of the Genophage for the Salariens, and maybe Turiens, infect their race(s), and then sit back an scream "Payback's ABITCH!!!"
I find it ironic that you first judge the Genophage harshly and then have complete understanding the Krogan doing it back. Just because one person does something horrible, doesn't mean that it's suddenly ok to do it.
So tell me, if you would've found it logical that they retaliated to the Genophage by any means necessary, why is it not logical that the Salarians and Turians tried to do what they could to stop the Krogans from committing genocide on the other races?
Read this if you will http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Krogan_Rebellions and tell us what you think would've been a better solution than the Genophage. I'd be very interested in what you would suggest.
@EgoMania wrote:
@fudgietroll wrote:
To use this on a sentient race, to even create it for that purpose, shows that you either regard that race as nothing more than animals or that you have such an utter lack of "humanity" that you make AdolphHitler look good.
I'm actually surprised that the Krogan didn't come up with a version of the Genophage for the Salariens, and maybe Turiens, infect their race(s), and then sit back an scream "Payback's ABITCH!!!"
I find it ironic that you first judge the Genophage harshly and then have complete understanding the Krogan doing it back. Just because one person does something horrible, doesn't mean that it's suddenly ok to do it.
I didn't say the Genophage was a good thing, I just said that, the Krogan being the Krogan, I'm surprised that the Krogan just rolled over and took it lying down, rather than sending it right back.
I also had happy thoughts of everyone behind the Genophage getting shot when that particular chicken came home to roost, then everyone having to fix the Genophage for everyone and banning bioweapons research, probably leading to the Salarian Rebellions. Mmm.... The Circle of Life!👿
@EgoMania wrote:
So tell me, if you would've found it logical that they retaliated to the Genophage by any means necessary, why is it not logical that the Salarians and Turians tried to do what they could to stop the Krogans from committing genocide on the other races?
Someone (@EgoMania) once said "Just because one person does something horrible, doesn't mean that it's suddenly ok to do it." :eahigh_file:
@EgoMania wrote:
Read this if you will http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Krogan_Rebellions and tell us what you think would've been a better solution than the Genophage. I'd be very interested in what you would suggest
Top 5 choices:
1) Rather than driving the Krogan into a united front against you, reduce Krogan population growth by introducing the Krogan's natural predator, the Krogan. Really, STG and the Specters can infiltrate and launch covert strikes against key Krogan leadership and facilities to unite the Krogan against the Galaxy, but they can't cause a little infighting instead? Losers! Kirrahe would be ashamed.😬
2) Really big rocks, or really big bombs. Play for hearts and minds and earn some respect that can be parlayed into negotiations. 🥳
3) Get/"uplift" someone to deal with the Krogans. The Turians might have worked pre-Genophage, but post-Genophage humans seem to be the only ones who can forge real working relationships with the Krogan.😎
4) Bother to actually learn something about the Race/culture you are uplifting to be prepared/preemptive in dealing with issues, and if things go south you can put together a group of champions to challenge the Krogan leaders to single combat.🤭
5) Following the Rachni wars launch a major campaign to instill "modern" values of birth control, delayed reproduction, women in the workforce, highly mobile populations, etc. which are highly effective in reducing or eliminating population growth.🤓
@fudgietroll wrote:Top 5 choices:
1) Rather than driving the Krogan into a united front against you, reduce Krogan population growth by introducing the Krogan's natural predator, the Krogan. Really, STG and the Specters can infiltrate and launch covert strikes against key Krogan leadership and facilities to unite the Krogan against the Galaxy, but they can't cause a little infighting instead? Losers! Kirrahe would be ashamed.😬
2) Really big rocks, or really big bombs. Play for hearts and minds and earn some respect that can be parlayed into negotiations. 🥳
3) Get/"uplift" someone to deal with the Krogans. The Turians might have worked pre-Genophage, but post-Genophage humans seem to be the only ones who can forge real working relationships with the Krogan.😎
4) Bother to actually learn something about the Race/culture you are uplifting to be prepared/preemptive in dealing with issues, and if things go south you can put together a group of champions to challenge the Krogan leaders to single combat.🤭
5) Following the Rachni wars launch a major campaign to instill "modern" values of birth control, delayed reproduction, women in the workforce, highly mobile populations, etc. which are highly effective in reducing or eliminating population growth.🤓
1) So regular assassinations in the hope they start killing each other. Yeah, that's so much better lol.
2) As we know the Turians had such a back up plan.
3) All kind of pointless if you've been taken over by the Krogan and eradicated from existence really.
4) As the link I gave you indicated the Krogan were aggressively taking over worlds from other races. They didn't leave much room for negotiation.
5) Well, that sounds very nice but considering the aggressive nature of the Krogan I very much doubt this would've worked at all.
All in all the Salarians came with a much better solution than you did, since your options are either too idealistic to have any practical value or are just a matter of committing genocide and just being able to blame someone else for it.
So yeah, drastic as it may be, I haven't seen a better alternative so far. Salarians win this one as far as I'm concerned 😉
@EgoMania wrote:
@fudgietroll wrote:Top 5 choices:
1) Rather than driving the Krogan into a united front against you, reduce Krogan population growth by introducing the Krogan's natural predator, the Krogan. Really, STG and the Specters can infiltrate and launch covert strikes against key Krogan leadership and facilities to unite the Krogan against the Galaxy, but they can't cause a little infighting instead? Losers! Kirrahe would be ashamed.😬
2) Really big rocks, or really big bombs. Play for hearts and minds and earn some respect that can be parlayed into negotiations. 🥳
3) Get/"uplift" someone to deal with the Krogans. The Turians might have worked pre-Genophage, but post-Genophage humans seem to be the only ones who can forge real working relationships with the Krogan.😎
4) Bother to actually learn something about the Race/culture you are uplifting to be prepared/preemptive in dealing with issues, and if things go south you can put together a group of champions to challenge the Krogan leaders to single combat.🤭
5) Following the Rachni wars launch a major campaign to instill "modern" values of birth control, delayed reproduction, women in the workforce, highly mobile populations, etc. which are highly effective in reducing or eliminating population growth.🤓
1) So regular assassinations in the hope they start killing each other. Yeah, that's so much better lol.
2) As we know the Turians had such a back up plan.
3) All kind of pointless if you've been taken over by the Krogan and eradicated from existence really.
4) As the link I gave you indicated the Krogan were aggressively taking over worlds from other races. They didn't leave much room for negotiation.
5) Well, that sounds very nice but considering the aggressive nature of the Krogan I very much doubt this would've worked at all.
1) The Krogan were found on the radioactive rubble of Tuchanka. For as long as the Galaxy has know them they have been riven by fierce internal rivalries and blood feuds. With the Rachni no longer a common enemy to unite them, COMPOTENT infiltrators could have planted evidence, started rumors, caused incidents, possibly made targeted killings, and generally caused the fragile peace between the Krogan to break down (Seriously, a handful of idiots with handguns and TB nearly burned the world down with WW1. You really think that the most elite and professional covert operatives in the galaxy couldn't do the same thing?). End Result: Krogan return to massive internal conflict, Krogan population growth rate and expansion drop dramatically, everyone is happy. 🙂
2) The fact that this was Plan B (along with Shanxi, the Separatist Uprisings, etc.,...) is yet more evidence that prior to Primarch Fedorian the Turian Hierachy had no grasp of "know your enemy". 😞
3) They survived the Rachni long enough to "uplift" the Krogan, they can survive the Krogan long enough to "uplift" someone else. 😉
4) Your response here really fits more with #2. Anyway, it always works for Shepard. "I like this human! (S)he understands!" Zaeed, Garrus, Aria, and Wrex's Asari ex have all done it too.😛
5) Yeah it's unlikely (except wandering around as mercs/adventurers instead of making babies) and was mostly sarcastic, but the fact that nobody tried demonstrates a lack of interest in the 6 Ps and the Salariens' general disdain for treating the Krogan as thinking beings. Alternative option: The Asari put a bunch of strip joints and merc outposts on the Krogan worlds. A bunch of Krogan stop making Krogan babies and start hitting on the Asari instead, the Krogan population growth rate and expansion drop dramatically, the Asari have something for their youngsters to do and new material for reproduction, and everyone is happy. 🥳
All in all the Salarians came with a much better solution than you did, since your options are either too idealistic to have any practical value or are just a matter of committing genocide and just being able to blame someone else for it.
So yeah, drastic as it may be, I haven't seen a better alternative so far. Salarians win this one as far as I'm concerned 😉
As opposed to committing genocide, calling it ecological conservationism, and patting yourself on the back for it? 🤨
Don't be a Dalatrass, man. You're better than that.
Also, "Just because one person does something horrible, doesn't mean that it's suddenly ok to do it." 🙌(you shouldn't have given me this. It's just WAAAAY too easy now!😃)
"....Every proclamation guarantees, free ammunition for you enemies...." (though I'd class things up with a little Hamilton👍)
PS I have Wrex, Eve, Mordin, and Kiirahe on my side, and you have Dalatrass Linron and Padok Wiks on yours. How do you think that's going to play out?🤔
@fudgietroll wrote:Also, "Just because one person does something horrible, doesn't mean that it's suddenly ok to do it." 🙌(you shouldn't have given me this. It's just WAAAAY too easy now!😃)
It's only too easy in your mind because you use false reasoning, not because I said that. My point still stands actually. You've misused that twice now. You really should stop using false reasoning.
When I conclude that something is better than something else, it doesn't mean it's ok. Please understand the difference between a logical conclusion and something that is morally right. It's always easy to look back and say oh, we should've done this very early on or that...in retrospect. But at some point the reality was there that the Krogan were unstoppable and were eradicating life where they found it pretty much, simply because they had an aggressive sense of dominance combined with an incredible birth rate that pushed that sense of dominance and need to expand. The Krogan were not going to self-regulate that. So the Salarians and Turians came up with a plan that actually allowed the Krogan to survive and at the same time end their crusade of taking over the galaxy. Was it a morally sound plan? Of course not. There were a lot of moral issues, but look at the alternative?
When it came to that point, in spite of previous mistakes it was either bomb them into extinction or the Genophage. Everything else were stations that were passed. Your solutions simply wouldn't work at that stage. If better decisions had been made earlier perhaps, perhaps...but hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it?
It was a horrible thing to do, with loads of moral issues packed into it, but it was the necessary thing to do if any of the other races wanted to survive. You seem to think it's fine the Krogan had started a genocidal crusade amongst the stars. It had to be stopped and quickly if people wanted to survive. You may argue that we didn't deserve to survive but at the same time most of the other races had not been involved in this STG plan and the Krogan weren't going to differentiate, were they now?
I once stated a question in a song I wrote about war: If you could save humanity by losing your own, would you do it?
Truth be told, I really don't have an answer for that. Survival is a funny thing and when it comes to survival we learn that we do what's necessary to survive. Any decision that kills billions of Krogan whether is done like with the Genophage or causing civil wars or just bombing them into extinction will have moral repercussions. The one sense of morality that existed within the Genophage plan is that they wanted a solution that didn't eradicate the Krogan as a race.
There is a terrible logic behind that, but logic isn't truth or moral per definition. It's just what makes sense under the circumstances and I imagine that when your back is against the wall and you're facing the extinction of your race and others, then morality might just be a luxury you can't afford.
Now I accept that not all necessary decisions are what we would consider morally right from our armchair at home, but when you're in a situation like that morality takes on a different form entirely and I don't think I can condemn the decision, especially considering the fact that even when facing their own extinction at the hand of the Krogan, they choose a solution, terrible as it was, that also ensured the surival of the Krogan.
When my Shepard ensures the curing of the Genophage, I believe it was only possible because in ME2 I chose the morally questionable choice to keep the research that was acquired by medical torture. Another choice perhaps that was the right choice even though it was morally wrong?
