I Like Sloane

@Kondaru

First of all I must admit that I have a lot of fun with this debate, so thank you. I do apologize if I am not clear about making a sarcastic comment or restating some of your points as a counter argument. I'll work on that.

Your whole argument so far has been Sloane is a drug dealer, Reyes would never do such a thing,

I beg Your pardon: could You please quote me the sentence where I stated something like that? I really do not want to take it personal, but I hate it when people put something into my mouths that I have never said. Please, don't do that.

And once more: I see no proof that Reyes became a drug dealer, which is the important part. "Not preventing others from dealing drugs" is much different from "profiting from drugs".

Reyes is solving problems because they hurt people, not because it makes him look good and Sloane look bad

And I still say that Reyes is solving many problems because they hurt people, without need to be *accounted* for them. Roekaar murders, Dr. Nakamoto's clinic, allowing Keema Dohrgun to rule over Kadara. At the same time I was always admitting that Reyes is a rogue, and that he is mainly interested in himself.

Once again, I would appreciate if You checked my previous posts.

Reyes has people tortured and killed because he's a good guy and they are bad guys

Uh... Never said that Reyes was truly a good guy, but I certainly stated that I had seen no proves of him ever going against anyone but bad guys. Could You please point me to any contradiction in my posts?

I understand that you don't want to be misquoted, so I went through your previous posts and here is what I have so far, as I am too tired to look for more tonight. I apologize if they don't represent what you were thinking, but they seemed to fit the question at hand:

On Sloane:

- is a drug lord PG3
At the same time You do *know* how cruel, petty, dishonest, and delusional drug lord Sloane is. PG 9
You expect a bully, sadist, satrap, murdered, drug lord, AND a fool who BLINDLY hates me and my people... PG9
she just wants to grow rich by bleeding others to death and offering nothing in exchange (like there are some Ketts remaining on the planet? WHO CARES? Collective is killing my elite Outcasts? WHO CARES? Exiles are dying in the badlands? WHO CARES? I can sell drugs to my subjects? YES, PLEASE). PG 9
And how about drugs? Do You believe poison to be worse than drugs? PG 12

On Reyes as nice/good guy:

- encourages trade and cooperation (even if only in public) PG 3
- protects people, e.g. from Roakars... PG 3
- ...and does not even ask to be acknowledged for it PG 3
- allows legal government to prevail (even if only in public) PG 3
- remains gentle and respectful to Ryder and the Initiative PG 3
- remains on good terms with Angara PG 3
- seems to be gentle and respectful to others (at least in public), excluding some of his bitter foes PG 3
- is successful in almost everything he does PG 3
- always pays his dues PG 3
- usually defeats own foes (such as Sloane) without jeopardizing others and avoiding excessive bloodshed if possible PG 3
- is *able* to forgive some of his foes (such as Kaetus) PG 3
- supports Initiative. PG 3
Uh... No? Reyes asked Ryder to gather proofs first. While Sloane is eager to pass sentences right-and-left disregarding actual guilt, Reyes wants Ryder to verify first if Roakar are to be blamed. They are - and thus Reyes takes immediate action against them. Fair and simple. PG 7
Reyes will not collect extortion fees, will not throw people out od Kadara Port to badlands stripped of all their possession, will not sanction beating people just for being poor, will not require Initiative to pay him, will not sell drugs (or at least there is no proof or suggestion that he will), will not sentence people to death to entertain minorities... PG 9
Reyes just wants to achieve something, and thus he protects the planet from all its enemies, like Sloane or Roekaar PG 9

The three bold lines are restating, with snarky asides, the arguments that you and other pro-Reyes posters are making that Reyes is anti-drugs and willing to take action to prevent harm to Kadarans, or to quote you "because they hurt people", this would then support the idea that if Reyes was truly this way he would get rid of the drug trade when he takes over. You yourself posted an extensive argument regarding the harm drugs cause to people and society earlier in this thread.

As for Reyes "problem solving" Reyes gets involved in the Angara killings after the Collective gets blamed and has Ryder prove it was Rokaar instread, the Collective supports both Dr Nakamura and the soup kitchen next door which loudly trumpets their good deeds (I believe you mentioned Sloane supporting herself with Bread and Circuses, Reyes has Bread down and maybe Circuses as well), and Keema Dohrgun is a Collective puppet. The altruism wears thin.

You have admitted that Reyes has both the identity of Reyes, who wouldn't profit from his good deeds, and the Charlatan, who would, and I have seen no evidence to back up your claim that Charlatan/Collective are not taking credit for the good things I do.

If that is true, then he should be getting rid of the drug dealers

No, why? I believe myself to do do some good deeds, like helping others in their problems, some charity from time to time, I have a work that is strongly (though indirectly) oriented on saving lives... But even though I hate drugs I have no intention on going out at night and fighting drug dealers.

DO YOU actively fight drug dealers?

If I own a large organization composed of mercenaries, assassins (yes they admit they have them), and smugglers and control the planet then yes I do fight them.

Also if I am Batman

especially since they cause "people [to be] mistreated, ... honest merchants and craftsmen [to] not get rich, ... society [to] decay... "

And he aids the society in many ways - probably because of a strong mix of selfless and selfish reasons. It doesn't mean that he needs to turn into Ryder and help every grandma in Andromeda to take her cat down from a tree.

This is just me quoting you like you asked to help illustrate the previous point I was trying to make. Feel free to reply in kind. Also not sure how eliminating drug problems is on the same scale as getting a cat out of a tree.

Reyes and Palpatine don't want to govern

Uh... PLEASE, do watch Star Wars again. Palpatine starts as Supreme Chancellor and turns into Emperor. How can You say he doesn't want to govern?  🤨

but they will do it because it is "necessary" and possibly "the people demand it"

Uh... PLEASE, do play Mass Effect Andromeda again. Reyes has never governed anything other than Collective, and even there he was more of a secret leader than actual governor. And Collective itself was never about governing anything.

This bit was me comparing your view on Reyes' desire to rule with Palpatine's public statements on the subject as he rises from Senator to Chancellor to Emperor. Your replies here fit well with my argument.

Nevertheless, the Collective recruiter does sell them as a large scale criminal enterprise, so if you want to go that route it is not a political uprising but a gang war, and there is no moral superiority or justification to be found, just thugs struggling to control money and power.

Hm... Perhaps I am simply eager to perceive more shades of gray than You do. When one gang is outright in mistreating, torturing, killing, and terrorizing civvies, dealing drugs, and overthrowing governments; while the other gang is mainly oriented on smuggling, stealing from the rich, and actively clashes *only* with other powerful criminals to trim them to an "acceptable" level... Well, sure thing: I would prefer to have no gangs at all, but I *do* find the second gang to be much better and morally superior to the first one. Lesser of two evils, as many people said. The thing is that difference between those two evils is astronomical to me.

Hm...missed the bit about overthrowing governments, unless you count Nexus or the Kett. I'm going to kind of lump mistreating and torturing together as beating on non-paying citizens and mutilating some criminals as punishment (like many Middle Eastern countries do). Killing probably breaks into two categories, executions for being criminals/kett and exile. This part is tricky, as conversations with the guard in the upper slums guard shack and the Warden indicate that the slums are for the people who don't pay protection and only the really bad/overconfident get sent to the Badlands, yet the girl who got accidentally booted wound up out there.

On the other side of the scale are people willing to engage in full scale torture, smugglers, assassins for hire, mercenaries willing to attack and slaughter innocents for money (ask the Collective recruiter), and are willing to eliminate any and all competition, and are ruled by a mysterious figure who answers to no one and has total authority of life or death over everyone, no trials or justifications offered.

And I Know, "anything sounds bad when you say it with THAT attitude"😛😉

Ripping out fingernails and blowtorches are generally considered torture where I come from

Uh... Perhaps I need to replay some parts. Could You please tell me where You have seen ripping out fingernails and active use of blowtorches to torture people on Kadara? I am serious.

Also, could You please point me to any of my posts when I am telling that Collective restrains from torturing people? I am quite sure that I was always telling that Collective is simply more careful in selecting *whom* to torture. Collective agents torture Outcasts who are "brave" enough to kidnap, to mob on civvies, and to torture others themselves. Outcasts are not so picky.

They have been doing this a lot, to a lot of people

While I find it possible - even probable - that they indeed tortured a lot of *Outcasts*, there is no actual *proof* on that. Once again, interrogation room NEEDS to LOOK scary - that's the point. Blood was from many individuals, but it doesn't mean that it came from interrogated prisoners.

And once again, PLEASE accept that You are defending a moot point: I did admitted numerous times that both Outcasts and Collective do torture people.

The guy in the torture room had his fingernails ripped out and there was a blowtorch among the "torture tools" on the wall. You often refer to beatings rather than torture when referring to the activities of the Outcasts and Collective. I am making a small distinction between beatings and torture.

A beating would refer to striking a person with appendages or blunt objects as a show of anger or attempted dominance, and both sides do this.

Torture would refer to intentionally inflicting maximum pain or bodily harm in order to coerce someone to provide intelligence, and the Outcast being tortured indicates Sloane doesn't sanction such activities.

I'll admit that I can't prove it happened more than once, but based on the interrogation/body, it probably did.

Granted, beating civvies is uncool, but the only times I remember seeing it happen was when prisoners were being rounded up for exile, so there is a decent chance that the ones being beaten were resisting arrest

"Resisting arrest?" Do You even believe what You are saying?   😮

But OK... Broken bones because a common guy was too poor to pay a tax, and then wanted to avoid being arrested IN ORDER TO BE SENTENCED TO DEATH

vs.

ripped out fingernails because someone killed a dozen of Your colleagues, and then kidnapped Your girlfriend (and possibly knows where she is kept).

Right... I do not think that there is any need for me to comment on this AGAIN.

Granted, probably going to die if sent to Badlands not slums, still not sure which is really the case

Not sure where the dozen dead colleagues and girlfriend came from. The interrogators seemed WAY too calm for the Outcast guy to have hurt someone they cared about.

Do I think Reyes goes up to people and tells them things like "Hey, don't ask Sloane to help your (druggie) brother. She doesn't care, but I'll see what I can do" or " Don't ask Sloane to deal with these murders. She's too busy, but I'll look into it", etc.? Yeah, I think he might.

Well, there is still a slight difference between Reyes and Absalom: Sloane really doesn't care about exiles other than her own Oucasts. And if You meant that Reyes' sister was violated by Sloane's man? I don't know, there is nothing in-game about the fact. Perhaps we will learn in the sequel.

Nice! Well Played! I would note though that it was his brother the Crown Prince (and previous next in line for the throne) not his dad he invited over, ambushed, and killed. Not to say he didn't have it coming, and dad eventually got over it.

Undoubtedly the Citadel Council had their own version

Why? ANYTHING to support that conclusion? Like, perhaps Citadel Counselors asking own Spectres (which are allowed to do things such as blowing buildings full of civilians - see Saren) to spare all the damaged Geths and to imprison them instead? Like using genophage on Krogans (it would be more like Hague Convention, but there were still many civvies between Krogans)?

Fair point, but it runs counter to your argument that Sloane has no justification for taking out Vehn Terev, given the breadth of actions that the Council accepts for the greater good.

If you go to another country you are subject to their laws and punishments, even execution

Sure thing, but only for crimes that I had committed in/against this country. Vehn Terev committed no such deed. As far as I can tell there were something like two laws on Kadara, and he had broken none of them.

Vehn Terev is a spy and a collaborator serving the kett, which makes him punishable in Kedara, where the kett are the enemy.

Nice, but untrue. When Vehn Terev comes to Kadara, he is no longer collaborating with Kett.

If you are no longer committing murder are you no longer a murderer? If you are no longer committing treason are you no longer a traitor? Not everything washes off just because you stop doing it. Also there is one law of Helios, recognized by all: there is no negotiation with the Kett, only blood. Vehn Terev is of the Kett faction and thus must die.

Theoretically she could turn him over to Aya, but she doesn't have a map and the local Angara want Aya to But Out (see Kedara intel in Resistance HQ).

Uh... That is really, really stretched. Sloane know about Resistance, and actually Ryder himself/herself is eager to take Vehn Terev to Aya. So... Nope, there is no reason NOT TO give Vehn Terev to the Resistance.

Kedara is a sovereign nation that declared its independence from Aya and the Resistance BEFORE the exiles arrived. The Resistance is trying to infiltrate Kedara, but pretty much everyone is telling them to go to hell. Ryder works for the Nexus, who the exiles declared independence from. So what exactly is Sloane's motivation to favor them over her own citizens?

Uh... But it was You who suggested that she had *no option* to. I just pointed to You that she had. Now You are telling me that Sloane had no reason to care about Aya or the Nexus. But if such is the case then she had ABSOLUTELY no reason to sentence Vehn Terev to death. Moshae is Aya.

So as far as I understand You are now more apt to acknowledge that Sloane murders people for petty reasons whenever it suits her? 😇

He has also targeted a figure who belongs to all Angara, regardless of nation of residence, much like the Pope or Queen of England

Pope belongs to Catholics and is a head of own country. Just go ask Muslims. And I do not really see how Queen of England belongs to me or my countryman - she is a head of her own country.

The Pope lives in the Vatican and is the head of all Catholics in every nation of the world. The Queen lives in England and is queen of more than a dozen independent countries. If you attack her and flee to another of her countries you can still be executed for treason because you have committed treason, even though you did it in an entirely separate country where the queen lives. The Moshe (a title) is of similar symbolic/religious significance to all angaran nations, even if they don't owe obedience to Aya, and Vehn Terev committed treason equally for all of these places.

and is thus arguably punishable by any nation that can catch him by virtue of his being an enemy of Angara-kind.

"Arguably" - definitely "arguably".

The only international laws that I can think of would be deportation and/or extradition.

I could even give another Bible parallel for Sloane sentencing Vehn Terev because of Angaran accusations, but I believe it could offend some people so I will refrain myself.

I'd love to know what it is, although if you were thinking Jesus you probably want to skip it unless you are prepared to claim, like the thief on the cross, that you and I deserve to die, but this man has done nothing wrong😇😉

Admittedly, if the devs culled a bunch of posts from this thread and used them for random discussions on the Nexus, especially around Tann and Addison, I think it would be hilarious, especially if Tann and Addison got mad about it and started yelling at their minions or the pathfinders to shut up.

Now, THAT I would like to see!   😃

Glad you liked it. Think we can raise enough interest EA actually does it? :eahigh_file:

All the same, I do understand that Reyes in not an angel, and that Collective is not made of honorable citizens. I definitely understand that Reyes can be perceived as snake in the grass - though I still find him preferable to Sloane. You know, as soon as I know that there is snake in the grass, and as soon as I *see* the snake, I really do prefer it over agitated bull charging on me time after time. Especially if I can use snake's venom to prepare some medicines...   ;-)

I can deal with the bull, but I don't want no mother F'n Snakes on my mother F'n Plane! 😉😃

First of all I must admit that I have a lot of fun with this debate, so thank you. I do apologize if I am not clear about making a sarcastic comment or restating some of your points as a counter argument. I'll work on that.

OK, sure. I am generally having a lot of fun as well, there are just some things that make me tense, and I do not want the situation to get out of hand. So thank You very much for Your understanding.

The three bold lines are restating, with snarky asides, the arguments that you and other pro-Reyes posters are making that Reyes is anti-drugs and willing to take action to prevent harm to Kadarans, or to quote you "because they hurt people", this would then support the idea that if Reyes was truly this way he would get rid of the drug trade when he takes over.

While I do agree with what some other people say, I can only stand firmly for what I have stated myself. So just to make it very clear: I am not so sure if Reyes is anti-drugs, though I do believe that there is no proof that he is pro-drugs. I really hope that I am right about him, and that he is not pro-drugs, otherwise – while I would still side with him – I would certainly stop to treat him as a potential ally.

You yourself posted an extensive argument regarding the harm drugs cause to people and society earlier in this thread.

And I support it: drugs are bad in my book.

As for Reyes "problem solving" Reyes gets involved in the Angara killings after the Collective gets blamed and has Ryder prove it was Rokaar instread

After the case is resolved there is absolutely no connection between the Collective and murders being resolved. So while murders themselves could have weakened Sloane a bit, there is no eminent benefit to the Collective. Seeking some ulterior motives behind Reyes’ involvement does not seem to me to be valid.

the Collective supports both Dr Nakamura and the soup kitchen next door which loudly trumpets their good deeds

I do not recall Dr. Nakamoto trumpeting anything. Also, after Initiative outpost is founded on Kadara Reyes does not ask Dr. Nakamoto to stay in the slums and to continue to work ‘for him’. I really cannot see how there could have been anything behind funding the clinic other than actual interest in helping people.

While I usually believe that charity is a good thing – even if done for petty reasons like self-promotion (it is because charity directly *helps* people) – I do understand why soup kitchen is a bit more controversial, so I have never mentioned it.

and Keema Dohrgun is a Collective puppet.

I do not really find Reyes as someone interested in governing or administrating. So while I do believe that Collective position will be strong with Keema Dohrgun, I am not 100% sure about the ‘puppet’ thing.

On the other hand – I am not denying the possibility.

The altruism wears thin.

It is similar for me to what I have mentioned about charity: even if ‘altruism’ is for selfish reason, it is still benefiting people. Which is what counts to me the most.

Sloane was somehow unable to be altruistic even for PR reasons.   ☹️

You have admitted that Reyes has both the identity of Reyes, who wouldn't profit from his good deeds, and the Charlatan, who would, and I have seen no evidence to back up your claim that Charlatan/Collective are not taking credit for the good things I do.

While my perspective is much different, it still means that Reyes helps people, where Sloane does not. As explained above: this is what actually counts for me the most.

If I own a large organization composed of mercenaries, assassins (yes they admit they have them), and smugglers and control the planet then yes I do fight them.

Also if I am Batman

There is a ‘false premise’ thing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise ) that makes Your answer a bit controversial. But OK, let me give You another example: when Outcasts are beating those poor sods on the streets of Kadara Port Ryder does not stop them. I know, because I really tried. Does it mean that Ryder is ‘pro-torture’ and thus just as bad as Reyes and Sloane? As far as I understand Your arguments: not stopping torturers is equal to supporting torturers.

And just a side-note: I was really angry with the game at that point. With overpowered SAM, there should have been numerous ways to deal with the problem without compromising Ryder, e.g. overloading Outcasts’ guns so they blew into their faces, or something.

>>> especially since they cause "people [to be] mistreated, ... honest merchants and craftsmen [to] not get rich, ... society [to] decay... "

>> And he aids the society in many ways - probably because of a strong mix of selfless and selfish reasons. It doesn't mean that he needs to turn into Ryder and help every grandma in Andromeda to take her cat down from a tree.

> This is just me quoting you like you asked to help illustrate the previous point I was trying to make. Feel free to reply in kind. Also not sure how eliminating drug problems is on the same scale as getting a cat out of a tree.

Yes, and I both confirmed and clarified my original intention behind the text. As for the cat, this time it was me trying to be sarcastic. I guess sarcasm not always plays for us as we would like it to.   🙂

This bit was me comparing your view on Reyes' desire to rule with Palpatine's public statements on the subject as he rises from Senator to Chancellor to Emperor. Your replies here fit well with my argument.

I just cannot see how they fit.

As far as I can tell Collective was never self-advertising it is there for ‘necessity’ or because of ‘people demanding it’. You Yourself declared that Collective was self-advertising as a criminal gang.

Palpatine was self-advertising himself to be a great leader/ruler and the only chance for peace in the galaxy (just to mention *few* of his promises).

Hm...missed the bit about overthrowing governments, unless you count Nexus or the Kett.

I mean taking Kadara from Anagara. You know it was not like Angara had been so happy with Sloane defeating Kett that they *asked* her to take over Kadara...

I'm going to kind of lump mistreating and torturing together as beating on non-paying citizens and mutilating some criminals as punishment (like many Middle Eastern countries do). (…) On the other side of the scale are people willing to engage in full scale torture, smugglers, assassins for hire, mercenaries willing to attack and slaughter innocents for money (ask the Collective recruiter)

While usually I would find ‘adhering to law’ to be a significant argument, the problem is that we are talking about moral superiority in this topic. Plus Sloane and Outcasts are explicitly admitting that there are no laws in badlands, and thus Collective torturing Outcast in the badlands is just as ‘lawful’ as Outcasts beating civvies in Kadara Port are.

As far as I recall what Collective recruiter tells, there is a blink-blink-not-denying-not-confirming type of answer about assassinations. We do not know about any such case, so actually we do not know if Collective is really willing to slaughter innocents – e.g. some real-life mafia families had some sets of internal rules binding them in this regard – though there is no denying that Collective has killers-for-hire on their payroll.

The thing is that *all* the Outcasts are murders to me, so in comparison Collective still pales with their professional assassins.

The guy in the torture room had his fingernails ripped out and there was a blowtorch among the "torture tools" on the wall. You often refer to beatings rather than torture when referring to the activities of the Outcasts and Collective. I am making a small distinction between beatings and torture.

OK, I do not recall the fingernails thing but I do believe You it was the case. For using blowtorch there is still no proof – it could be there to scare people rather than for actual use.

From my perspective beating is a type of torture. Sure, we can now start a discussion on ‘better’ and ‘worse’ methods of torturing people, but I really think it would be unnecessarily relative. If it matters to You, I am willing to admit that Collective is possibly more extreme in the way that they are torturing people.

Still: Outcasts are less picky as far as victims go, and they have less ‘valid’ reasons for torturing people at all.

A beating would refer to striking a person with appendages or blunt objects as a show of anger or attempted dominance, and both sides do this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture - ‘Torture (from the Latin tortus, "twisted") is the act of deliberately inflicting physical or psychological pain on an organism in order to fulfill some desire of the torturer or compel some action from the victim.’

I guess that Your definition of ‘beating’ matches ‘torture’ 100%.

Torture would refer to intentionally inflicting maximum pain or bodily harm in order to coerce someone to provide intelligence, and the Outcast being tortured indicates Sloane doesn't sanction such activities.

No, I believe that the above is a definition of 3rd degree interrogation techniques rather than of torture in general. And even then I would use some different wording.

As for the Outcast being tortured there was nothing about Sloane there. As far as I recall it was about some Outcast/pirate captain being bloodthirsty and usually going for direct kills.

Not sure where the dozen dead colleagues and girlfriend came from. The interrogators seemed WAY too calm for the Outcast guy to have hurt someone they cared about.

People react in many ways – there is no way for us to know what the interrogator felt.

You are right about the girlfriend thing – it is just a possibility. But it seemed clear to me that Collective cared about one of their agents, and was only interested in retrieving her – so she as well might have been a girlfriend of one of them. It doesn’t really matter – intentions are clear.

As for ‘dozen dead colleagues’ it is an educated guess: Outcast pirates with their captain confirmed to regularly kill prisoners probably have a lot of Collective agents on their hands.

Nice! Well Played! I would note though that it was his brother the Crown Prince (and previous next in line for the throne) not his dad he invited over, ambushed, and killed. Not to say he didn't have it coming, and dad eventually got over it.

You are absolutely right. And actually I doubt Reyes has a sister – he seems like an only child to me, basing on how self-centered he is.   🙂

Fair point, but it runs counter to your argument that Sloane has no justification for taking out Vehn Terev, given the breadth of actions that the Council accepts for the greater good.

Not really. My argument was that Vehn Terev has broken no Kadaran laws, so there was no reason for Sloane to prosecute him. If some the other parties believed Vehn Terev guilty, they could possibly ask for extradition – that’s it.

If you are no longer committing murder are you no longer a murderer? If you are no longer committing treason are you no longer a traitor?

Those are very nice questions, but the thing is that Vehn Terev has not murdered or betrayed anyone on Kadara. Actually Sloane is encouraging exiles to work as pirates, smugglers, and turncoats, so I really see no reason to prosecute Vehn Terev.

Also there is one law of Helios, recognized by all: there is no negotiation with the Kett, only blood. Vehn Terev is of the Kett faction and thus must die.

Hm… I would not be so quick about this one universal law, but I guess You are mainly correct. And I would probably accept the fact if this was the reason for which Sloane prosecutes Vehn Terev. But this is not this reason.

The Pope lives in the Vatican and is the head of all Catholics in every nation of the world. The Queen lives in England and is queen of more than a dozen independent countries. If you attack her and flee to another of her countries you can still be executed for treason because you have committed treason, even though you did it in an entirely separate country where the queen lives.

I do not think that Catholics living in Saudi Arabia would be allowed to kill recognized Pope murderer if he committed the deed somewhere else, and then tried to hide in Saudi Arabia. I am quite sure the killer would be captured and extradited to the country where the murder took place. And if the killer tried to hide on ISIS territory then we could not even hope for extradition.

As for Queen of England, sure there are quite a few countries that acknowledge her as their own, but there are many-many more that do not. As far as I understand Sloane does not recognizes Moshae to be her superior – or even her subject.

Glad you liked it. Think we can raise enough interest EA actually does it? :eahigh_file:

86 XP on the topic at the moment. Taking into account how little interest EA/BW displays, and how slow they are to react, I am afraid that we need at least thrice as many. On the other hand if someone could points the idea to Devs on Twitter or something, perhaps that would work… 😃

I can deal with the bull, but I don't want no mother F'n Snakes on my mother F'n Plane! 😉😃

No argument with that – this is a personal thing, so all people ae more than entitled to their own opinions.   🙂

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@Kondaru/fudgietroll wrote:

If I own a large organization composed of mercenaries, assassins (yes they admit they have them), and smugglers and control the planet then yes I do fight them.

 

Also if I am Batman

There is a ‘false premise’ thing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise ) that makes Your answer a bit controversial. But OK, let me give You another example: when Outcasts are beating those poor sods on the streets of Kadara Port Ryder does not stop them. I know, because I really tried. Does it mean that Ryder is ‘pro-torture’ and thus just as bad as Reyes and Sloane? As far as I understand Your arguments: not stopping torturers is equal to supporting torturers.

And just a side-note: I was really angry with the game at that point. With overpowered SAM, there should have been numerous ways to deal with the problem without compromising Ryder, e.g. overloading Outcasts’ guns so they blew into their faces, or something.

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But "Also if I am Batman" IS funny.

Grazi for y'all's back and forth. I really enjoy reading it. 😃

i guess that would mean i'm the one playing the part of kesh, standing between addison & tann.

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

i guess that would mean i'm the one playing the part of kesh, standing between addison & tann.

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Ouch! Sucks to be Ryder. But at least we have Grampa Drack to back us up

Annnd now I'm thinking Hotel Transylvania. Are we sure Drack isn't an immortal vampire? It would explain so much....

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@jpcerutti1 wrote:

But "Also if I am Batman" IS funny.

Grazi for y'all's back and forth. I really enjoy reading it. 😃

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Bitte, Bitte. Anytime 🥳

@Kondaru

The three bold lines are restating, with snarky asides, the arguments that you and other pro-Reyes posters are making that Reyes is anti-drugs and willing to take action to prevent harm to Kadarans, or to quote you "because they hurt people", this would then support the idea that if Reyes was truly this way he would get rid of the drug trade when he takes over.

While I do agree with what some other people say, I can only stand firmly for what I have stated myself. So just to make it very clear: I am not so sure if Reyes is anti-drugs, though I do believe that there is no proof that he is pro-drugs. I really hope that I am right about him, and that he is not pro-drugs, otherwise – while I would still side with him – I would certainly stop to treat him as a potential ally.

You yourself posted an extensive argument regarding the harm drugs cause to people and society earlier in this thread.

And I support it: drugs are bad in my book.

If a) Reyes went after the Rokaar murderers and did other helpful things simply because it helped people, and b) drugs are at least as dangerous/bad as murder, then c) Reyes should remove the drug dealers

However, If a) Reyes went after the Rokaar murderers and did other helpful things simply because it benefitted him/Collective, and b) drugs are at least as dangerous/bad as murder, and c) removing the drug dealers does not benefit Reyes, then d) the drug dealers stay

The drug dealers stayed. Hmm....👿

As for Reyes "problem solving" Reyes gets involved in the Angara killings after the Collective gets blamed and has Ryder prove it was Rokaar instread

After the case is resolved there is absolutely no connection between the Collective and murders being resolved. So while murders themselves could have weakened Sloane a bit, there is no eminent benefit to the Collective. Seeking some ulterior motives behind Reyes’ involvement does not seem to me to be valid.

When you talk to Reyes about these murders the first thing Ryder says is that the Collective is getting blamed for it, so this isn't about weakening Sloane, its about protecting the Collective and (probably) getting some good PR. His alternative is to allow the murders to continue and the Collective to continue to take the blame. If you believe that Sloane is willing to kill Vehn Terev to appease her angaran populace you should be willing to believe that she would take out the Collective for the same reason, especially if Kaetus backs up Keema Dohrgun. Also it's possible that information might come to light about a certain Resistance contact selling information/supplies to the Rokaar (speculation, but plausible)

The altruism wears thin.

It is similar for me to what I have mentioned about charity: even if ‘altruism’ is for selfish reason, it is still benefiting people. Which is what counts to me the most.

Sloane was somehow unable to be altruistic even for PR reasons.   ☹️

You have admitted that Reyes has both the identity of Reyes, who wouldn't profit from his good deeds, and the Charlatan, who would, and I have seen no evidence to back up your claim that Charlatan/Collective are not taking credit for the good things I do.

While my perspective is much different, it still means that Reyes helps people, where Sloane does not. As explained above: this is what actually counts for me the most.

Sloane helps those that help themselves 😇😉

Also not sure if Sloane is really any more interested in ruling than Reyes supposedly is. She only has 2 rules and tends to focus on the Kett as much as possible. Poor King Richard, off fighting for the good of all while Prince John tries to steal his throne 😉

If I own a large organization composed of mercenaries, assassins (yes they admit they have them), and smugglers and control the planet then yes I do fight them.

Also if I am Batman

There is a ‘false premise’ thing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise ) that makes Your answer a bit controversial. But OK, let me give You another example: when Outcasts are beating those poor sods on the streets of Kadara Port Ryder does not stop them. I know, because I really tried. Does it mean that Ryder is ‘pro-torture’ and thus just as bad as Reyes and Sloane? As far as I understand Your arguments: not stopping torturers is equal to supporting torturers.

And just a side-note: I was really angry with the game at that point. With overpowered SAM, there should have been numerous ways to deal with the problem without compromising Ryder, e.g. overloading Outcasts’ guns so they blew into their faces, or something.

Where is my false premise?

I do find this scene and other similar ones quite frustrating, where I have to fail/put up with stuff that I could normally handle if not getting auto-gimped by the game mechanic.

>>> especially since they cause "people [to be] mistreated, ... honest merchants and craftsmen [to] not get rich, ... society [to] decay... "

>> And he aids the society in many ways - probably because of a strong mix of selfless and selfish reasons. It doesn't mean that he needs to turn into Ryder and help every grandma in Andromeda to take her cat down from a tree.

> This is just me quoting you like you asked to help illustrate the previous point I was trying to make. Feel free to reply in kind. Also not sure how eliminating drug problems is on the same scale as getting a cat out of a tree.

Yes, and I both confirmed and clarified my original intention behind the text. As for the cat, this time it was me trying to be sarcastic. I guess sarcasm not always plays for us as we would like it to.   🙂

Yeah, sorry. I caught hyperbole not sarcasm🤓😉

This bit was me comparing your view on Reyes' desire to rule with Palpatine's public statements on the subject as he rises from Senator to Chancellor to Emperor. Your replies here fit well with my argument.

I just cannot see how they fit.

As far as I can tell Collective was never self-advertising it is there for ‘necessity’ or because of ‘people demanding it’. You Yourself declared that Collective was self-advertising as a criminal gang.

Palpatine was self-advertising himself to be a great leader/ruler and the only chance for peace in the galaxy (just to mention *few* of his promises).

And you yourself said that the Collective was a guerrilla uprising backed by popular support against Sloane's evil tyranny, and Reyes would never have done all this otherwise (paraphrasing a bit there)

To me it seems awful similar to Palpatine's "oh I am but a humble senator with no aspirations to rule. I tots didn't expect to be nominated for Chancellor, but if elected I will accept the role to defeat the evil Trade Federation terrorizing my homeland"

Shortly to be followed with "oh I am but a humble Chancellor, but I will accept dictatorial powers to defeat the evil Separatists", "oh I am but a humble Chancellor, but I will accept the role of emperor to defeat the evil Jedi", and "execute order 66"

I know I'll be looking over my shoulder for an order 66🥳 Of course you have to wonder who will be playing Anakin "The Whiner" Skywalker!👿

"Good. Good! Now strike her down and your journey to the Dark side will be complete!"

"No! I still sense some good in her!"

"Then young Pathfinder, you WILL die!" 🤭

On a conspiracy note, imagine that he takes over the Nexus & maybe Aya in ME:A2, and we have to form a resistance using bases that areent really Nexus/Aya aligned, so if we backed all the Nexus/Aya centric moves we'd be in deep doo-doo👿

Hm...missed the bit about overthrowing governments, unless you count Nexus or the Kett.

I mean taking Kadara from Anagara. You know it was not like Angara had been so happy with Sloane defeating Kett that they *asked* her to take over Kadara...

They kind of do at first....:eahigh_file:

A beating would refer to striking a person with appendages or blunt objects as a show of anger or attempted dominance, and both sides do this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture - ‘Torture (from the Latin tortus, "twisted") is the act of deliberately inflicting physical or psychological pain on an organism in order to fulfill some desire of the torturer or compel some action from the victim.’

I guess that Your definition of ‘beating’ matches ‘torture’ 100%.

Fair point. I wrote definitions rather than googling them at this point, and it's really just semantics and splitting hairs anyway. Nevertheless, I guess I was really thinking of the difference between excessive force arrest situations and POW torture.

Excessive force, examined here, is when a police officer exceeds the minimum amount of force necessary to force the subject to stop resisting arrest and protect the safety of the officers and bystanders. While it may fit some definitions of torture it is neither treated not tried as such. Based on the fact that the times that I have seen the outcasts beating civvies they are being arrested and taken to jail, and the violence takes place during this process and is all before they are behind bars (not counting mutilations as punishment for crimes), this could arguably fall under the excessive force umbrella, rather than torture per se

Torture you have already well defined. In the case of the Collective, all their violence is specifically torture, as all the individuals being tortured were already arrested/imprisoned successfully, and are now just being punished/violently interrogated/tortured for giggles. Even if you don't feel that the Outcasts and other Collective prisoners are entitled to POW/prisoner rights, this is still a whole different class of violence.

Essentially, think Rodney King vs Zahra Kazemi

 Torture would refer to intentionally inflicting maximum pain or bodily harm in order to coerce someone to provide intelligence, and the Outcast being tortured indicates Sloane doesn't sanction such activities.

No, I believe that the above is a definition of 3rd degree interrogation techniques rather than of torture in general. And even then I would use some different wording.

As for the Outcast being tortured there was nothing about Sloane there. As far as I recall it was about some Outcast/pirate captain being bloodthirsty and usually going for direct kills.

Not sure where the dozen dead colleagues and girlfriend came from. The interrogators seemed WAY too calm for the Outcast guy to have hurt someone they cared about.

People react in many ways – there is no way for us to know what the interrogator felt.

You are right about the girlfriend thing – it is just a possibility. But it seemed clear to me that Collective cared about one of their agents, and was only interested in retrieving her – so she as well might have been a girlfriend of one of them. It doesn’t really matter – intentions are clear.

As for ‘dozen dead colleagues’ it is an educated guess: Outcast pirates with their captain confirmed to regularly kill prisoners probably have a lot of Collective agents on their hands.

On the recording the interrogator tells the prisoner, after he has been tortured to the extent we found him, that it can get much worse. The prisoner laughs and says that Sloane doesn't play with her food, and the torturer decides that rather than torturing the Collective operative she simply executed them.

You can draw your own conclusions about mounting a rescue and everything, but, from the lack of concern in the torturer's voice, I would guess that he we trying to determine the size of the security leak that needed plugging. Since the operative is dead and hadn't spilled any intel the issue was resolved and he had nothing to worry about.

Fair point, but it runs counter to your argument that Sloane has no justification for taking out Vehn Terev, given the breadth of actions that the Council accepts for the greater good.

Not really. My argument was that Vehn Terev has broken no Kadaran laws, so there was no reason for Sloane to prosecute him. If some the other parties believed Vehn Terev guilty, they could possibly ask for extradition – that’s it.

If you are no longer committing murder are you no longer a murderer? If you are no longer committing treason are you no longer a traitor?

Those are very nice questions, but the thing is that Vehn Terev has not murdered or betrayed anyone on Kadara. Actually Sloane is encouraging exiles to work as pirates, smugglers, and turncoats, so I really see no reason to prosecute Vehn Terev.

Also there is one law of Helios, recognized by all: there is no negotiation with the Kett, only blood. Vehn Terev is of the Kett faction and thus must die.

Hm… I would not be so quick about this one universal law, but I guess You are mainly correct. And I would probably accept the fact if this was the reason for which Sloane prosecutes Vehn Terev. But this is not this reason.

The Pope lives in the Vatican and is the head of all Catholics in every nation of the world. The Queen lives in England and is queen of more than a dozen independent countries. If you attack her and flee to another of her countries you can still be executed for treason because you have committed treason, even though you did it in an entirely separate country where the queen lives.

I do not think that Catholics living in Saudi Arabia would be allowed to kill recognized Pope murderer if he committed the deed somewhere else, and then tried to hide in Saudi Arabia. I am quite sure the killer would be captured and extradited to the country where the murder took place. And if the killer tried to hide on ISIS territory then we could not even hope for extradition.

As for Queen of England, sure there are quite a few countries that acknowledge her as their own, but there are many-many more that do not. As far as I understand Sloane does not recognizes Moshae to be her superior – or even her subject.

Let's restate the question. If a guy sells out a bunch of Jews to the Na zis in Poland, then flees to France and gets captured by the French Resistance, who know what he did, BEFORE he sells out anyone in France, do the French Resistance kill him, let him go, or try to extradite him to Poland? Same enemy, different countries.

I do know that neither the Queen or the Pope are perfect fits for the Moshe, and that if Saudi Arabia didn't have such strong economic and military connections to the West they would probably throw a national holiday if something bad happened to the Pope (although, given said connections, they might actually execute the traitor). I know you were going for sarcasm, but you really should pick a country with at least as high a percentage of Catholics as Kedara Port has Angara.

Actually, the term Moshe most closely seems to resemble Dwarven Paragons in Dragon Age. If some dwarven noble from Orzemmar sold out a Paragon, like Verric's friend, to the darkspawn in the deep roads and fled to Kirkwall I suspect that Verric would execute them and no one would give him any grief about it.

I'm going to kind of lump mistreating and torturing together as beating on non-paying citizens and mutilating some criminals as punishment (like many Middle Eastern countries do). (…) On the other side of the scale are people willing to engage in full scale torture, smugglers, assassins for hire, mercenaries willing to attack and slaughter innocents for money (ask the Collective recruiter)

While usually I would find ‘adhering to law’ to be a significant argument, the problem is that we are talking about moral superiority in this topic. Plus Sloane and Outcasts are explicitly admitting that there are no laws in badlands, and thus Collective torturing Outcast in the badlands is just as ‘lawful’ as Outcasts beating civvies in Kadara Port are.

As far as I recall what Collective recruiter tells, there is a blink-blink-not-denying-not-confirming type of answer about assassinations. We do not know about any such case, so actually we do not know if Collective is really willing to slaughter innocents – e.g. some real-life mafia families had some sets of internal rules binding them in this regard – though there is no denying that Collective has killers-for-hire on their payroll.

The thing is that *all* the Outcasts are murders to me, so in comparison Collective still pales with their professional assassins.

The guy in the torture room had his fingernails ripped out and there was a blowtorch among the "torture tools" on the wall. You often refer to beatings rather than torture when referring to the activities of the Outcasts and Collective. I am making a small distinction between beatings and torture.

OK, I do not recall the fingernails thing but I do believe You it was the case. For using blowtorch there is still no proof – it could be there to scare people rather than for actual use.

From my perspective beating is a type of torture. Sure, we can now start a discussion on ‘better’ and ‘worse’ methods of torturing people, but I really think it would be unnecessarily relative. If it matters to You, I am willing to admit that Collective is possibly more extreme in the way that they are torturing people.

Still: Outcasts are less picky as far as victims go, and they have less ‘valid’ reasons for torturing people at all.

Sadly, at times lack of direct evidence is not going to allow us to agree or debate certain points, as we will fill in the blank with facts that support our views

We don't know what is being said about our help Kedara missions, so you will assume that Ryder gets all the credit and I will assume that the Collective is taking a bunch of it

We don't know the criminal pedigrees of all the Outcasts and Collective, so you will assume that the Collective is morally superior and I will assume that they are about the same or the Outcasts are slightly better

We don't know what the true extent of the torture being perpetrated is, so you will assume that the Outcasts are indiscriminately violent with no real purpose while the Collective prefer to use psychological intimidation and a degree of force on a few select individuals and I will assume that the Outcasts are using targeted violence against a specific group of people while making arrests while the Collective uses a high degree of intensive violence against a wide range of individuals chosen with a degree of purpose

Like Schrodinger's Cat, in the absence of evidence both of our conclusions are equally valid

Finally, I happened to listen to Sabaton's Rise of Evil on the way home today, and I realized that if I wanted to be mean I could draw parallels between Hit ler and the Na zis and Reyes and the Collective. So let's be mean.🥳👿

Hit ler and Reyes: Are part of a society that has a high degree of poverty and suffering after losing a war, are trying to overthrow the oppressors responsible for maintaining this situation, plan to bring about economic revival and increased prosperity for all by targeting one distinct "controlling/oppressive" element of society for extermination, imprison, torture, and kill the members of that group and any other opposition, form paramilitary organizations to take over the government, kill or imprison all political opposition overnight, utilize figureheads to help minimize disruption by subject peoples, attempt to maintain a "common man" image, have plans for global/cluster domination 😎👿

@fudgietroll

i have to disagree with the whole reyes is an analogue for Hit-ler argument, and the comparing the collective to nazi party.

can't believe i actually have to make this argument... thanx fudgietroll [/snarky]

first, adolf had a completely different psychological makeup, and the physical parallels comparing their actions just isn't there. and no i'm not turning this into a history lecture.

post WWI germany was impoverished, it was mainly do to the inflation of the german currency, which was mainly caused by overly harsh sanctions enacted by the versailles treaty and germanys attempts to pay up. there's really no parallels here either.

as for the tactics reyes uses to fight the outcasts, are you going to claim that the blitzkrieg (aka lightning warfare) tactics which from the basics of most modern military doctrine makes every nation that uses them neo-na-zis or the unrestricted submarine warfare first enacted by the german navy, and outlawed by nearly every civilized nation at the time, only to become the sop for conflicts of attrition, and used on a few occasions by the US navy itself, or carpet bombing is somehow less ethical because germany's airforce/navy was the first origination to use it during a conflict?

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

@fudgietroll

i have to disagree with the whole reyes is an analogue for Hit-ler argument, and the comparing the collective to nazi party.

can't believe i actually have to make this argument... thanx fudgietroll [/snarky]

first, adolf had a completely different psychological makeup, and the physical parallels comparing their actions just isn't there. and no i'm not turning this into a history lecture.

post WWI germany was impoverished, it was mainly do to the inflation of the german currency, which was mainly caused by overly harsh sanctions enacted by the versailles treaty and germanys attempts to pay up. there's really no parallels here either.

as for the tactics reyes uses to fight the outcasts, are you going to claim that the blitzkrieg (aka lightning warfare) tactics which from the basics of most modern military doctrine makes every nation that uses them neo-na-zis or the unrestricted submarine warfare first enacted by the german navy, and outlawed by nearly every civilized nation at the time, only to become the sop for conflicts of attrition, and used on a few occasions by the US navy itself, or carpet bombing is somehow less ethical because the germany airforce/navy was the first origination to use it during a conflict?

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I did say I was being mean. I am perfectly aware that this comparison is a bit of a stretch even though I can make it mostly fit. I pretty much put it in for the entertainment value of sending the pro-Reyes crowd on a reflex freak-out. 😛👿

Anyway, Allied/Versailles Treaty sanctions vs Nexus Sanctions, Great War vs Uprising, Weimar Republic vs Sloane using politics and repression to maintain stability, Adolph vs Reyes coming to power over the piled corpses of political opponents and inconvenient allies, S.S. Blackshirts/S.A. Brownshirts vs Collective, all are close enough parallels to use to achieve my stated goal. 😎🤓

Also, I don't think Blitzkrieg comes into it. Reyes hasn't started WW2 yet, he's still on Night of the Long Knives/Kristallnacht. Elaaden and New Tuchanka had better watch out for Anschluss and the Munich Pact though. Jorgal Strux would happily agitate for the reunion of the Krogan and exiles, and given Reyes' Initiative gladhanding Tann would happily sell out the Krogan for Peace in our Time🤓👿

@fudgietroll

you seem to have missed my point about blitzkrieg completely. you were condemning the collective because their overall strategy seemed to resemble the tactics used by the nazi party, i was just pointing out that strategies and tactics created by the nazi controlled german army & air force are used by just about every modern military or paramilitary force in the world. just because these tactics are used doesn't mean those using them are anywhere near on par with n a z i s. your point seems rather absurd, and you can use logic to make connections between anything. i bet you could also draw the same conclusions about sloane's rise to power as you did with reyes.

as to nexus sanctions, besides exile... i don't recall any specific sanctions the nexus placed one the outcasts.

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

@fudgietroll

you seem to have missed my point about blitzkrieg completely. you were condemning the collective because their overall strategy seemed to resemble the tactics used by the nazi party, i was just pointing out that strategies and tactics created by the nazi controlled german army & air force are used by just about every modern military or paramilitary force in the world. just because these tactics are used doesn't mean those using them are anywhere near on par with n a z i s. you your point seems rather absurd, and you can use logic to make connections between anything. i bet you could also draw the same conclusions about sloane's rise to power as you did with reyes.

as to nexus sanctions, besides exile... i don't recall any specific sanctions the nexus placed one the outcasts.

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Yes, the point was mostly to be absurd, with just enough plausibility to make Reyes fans twitch and go "Reyes...Huff....Is...Huff....Not...Huff....Hittler!!" It seems to be working!😛👿

Yes, Yes, Blitzkrieg is a great military tactic and V8s got man to space, Etc. Etc., and we're not Na-Zis as long as we are allowed to speak at Berkley...

Anyway, if you want to play it that way, Blitzkrieg is just the unification/formalization of existing military skills such as Billy Mitchell's aggressive bombers and ground combat strategies that go back at least as far as the Mongols.

Furthermore, you would not describe marooning people in space with limited supplies and no chance for further contact, supplies, or support as a heavy sanction?

@fudgietroll

in this particular case i don't view exile as an actual sanction at all. and iirc it was the exiles (sloane in particular) who chose exile in the first place. tann/nexus leadership gave them a choice, not much of one, but still a choice... back into the freezer till the nexus can put together a proper tribunal or what-have-you, or go out on your own, without nexus support of any kind. they could have just as easily had them lined up and shot. might have been easier in the short term.  

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@CasperTheLich wrote:

@fudgietroll

in this particular case i don't view exile as an actual sanction at all. and iirc it was the exiles (sloane in particular) who chose exile in the first place. tann/nexus leadership gave them a choice, not much of one, but still a choice... back into the freezer till the nexus can put together a proper tribunal or what-have-you, or go out on your own, without nexus support of any kind. they could have just as easily had them lined up and shot. might have been easier in the short term.  

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But then who would line up and shoot all the Krogan? At some point the pogroms would have to stop - people wouldn't go for being thawed so they could be part of a firing squad.

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@mcsupersport wrote:
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO

PLEASE LEAVE THAT OLD GERMAN PARTY IN THE SCRAP HEAP OF TIME AND FRINGE IDIOTS.

I have said before, I think Reyes is the worse enemy to help, and debate is fun, but honestly it will all depend on Bioware writing the next chapter and after some of the current writing examples, I am scared....

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Sorry, the Kett are basically spacenazis anyway. Might as well accept Reyes as Adolph

@fudgietroll

lol, nope they are organic Borg....

They aren't trying to exterminate people who don't meet their standards, they are trying to make everyone into them and bettering their race with imported DNA...aka, organic Borg...

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@mcsupersport wrote:

@fudgietroll

lol, nope they are organic Borg....

They aren't trying to exterminate people who don't meet their standards, they are trying to make everyone into them and bettering their race with imported DNA...aka, organic Borg...

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They are also exterminating everyone who is not considered worthy of exaltation via massacres, forced labor camps, and human/other species experimentation.

So I'll meet you halfway... Organic Borg Spacenazis....😃👿