I Like Sloane

First of all I must admit that I have a lot of fun with this debate, so thank you. I do apologize if I am not clear about making a sarcastic comment or restating some of your points as a counter argument. I'll work on that.

OK, sure. I am generally having a lot of fun as well, there are just some things that make me tense, and I do not want the situation to get out of hand. So thank You very much for Your understanding.

The three bold lines are restating, with snarky asides, the arguments that you and other pro-Reyes posters are making that Reyes is anti-drugs and willing to take action to prevent harm to Kadarans, or to quote you "because they hurt people", this would then support the idea that if Reyes was truly this way he would get rid of the drug trade when he takes over.

While I do agree with what some other people say, I can only stand firmly for what I have stated myself. So just to make it very clear: I am not so sure if Reyes is anti-drugs, though I do believe that there is no proof that he is pro-drugs. I really hope that I am right about him, and that he is not pro-drugs, otherwise – while I would still side with him – I would certainly stop to treat him as a potential ally.

You yourself posted an extensive argument regarding the harm drugs cause to people and society earlier in this thread.

And I support it: drugs are bad in my book.

As for Reyes "problem solving" Reyes gets involved in the Angara killings after the Collective gets blamed and has Ryder prove it was Rokaar instread

After the case is resolved there is absolutely no connection between the Collective and murders being resolved. So while murders themselves could have weakened Sloane a bit, there is no eminent benefit to the Collective. Seeking some ulterior motives behind Reyes’ involvement does not seem to me to be valid.

the Collective supports both Dr Nakamura and the soup kitchen next door which loudly trumpets their good deeds

I do not recall Dr. Nakamoto trumpeting anything. Also, after Initiative outpost is founded on Kadara Reyes does not ask Dr. Nakamoto to stay in the slums and to continue to work ‘for him’. I really cannot see how there could have been anything behind funding the clinic other than actual interest in helping people.

While I usually believe that charity is a good thing – even if done for petty reasons like self-promotion (it is because charity directly *helps* people) – I do understand why soup kitchen is a bit more controversial, so I have never mentioned it.

and Keema Dohrgun is a Collective puppet.

I do not really find Reyes as someone interested in governing or administrating. So while I do believe that Collective position will be strong with Keema Dohrgun, I am not 100% sure about the ‘puppet’ thing.

On the other hand – I am not denying the possibility.

The altruism wears thin.

It is similar for me to what I have mentioned about charity: even if ‘altruism’ is for selfish reason, it is still benefiting people. Which is what counts to me the most.

Sloane was somehow unable to be altruistic even for PR reasons.   ☹️

You have admitted that Reyes has both the identity of Reyes, who wouldn't profit from his good deeds, and the Charlatan, who would, and I have seen no evidence to back up your claim that Charlatan/Collective are not taking credit for the good things I do.

While my perspective is much different, it still means that Reyes helps people, where Sloane does not. As explained above: this is what actually counts for me the most.

If I own a large organization composed of mercenaries, assassins (yes they admit they have them), and smugglers and control the planet then yes I do fight them.

Also if I am Batman

There is a ‘false premise’ thing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise ) that makes Your answer a bit controversial. But OK, let me give You another example: when Outcasts are beating those poor sods on the streets of Kadara Port Ryder does not stop them. I know, because I really tried. Does it mean that Ryder is ‘pro-torture’ and thus just as bad as Reyes and Sloane? As far as I understand Your arguments: not stopping torturers is equal to supporting torturers.

And just a side-note: I was really angry with the game at that point. With overpowered SAM, there should have been numerous ways to deal with the problem without compromising Ryder, e.g. overloading Outcasts’ guns so they blew into their faces, or something.

>>> especially since they cause "people [to be] mistreated, ... honest merchants and craftsmen [to] not get rich, ... society [to] decay... "

>> And he aids the society in many ways - probably because of a strong mix of selfless and selfish reasons. It doesn't mean that he needs to turn into Ryder and help every grandma in Andromeda to take her cat down from a tree.

> This is just me quoting you like you asked to help illustrate the previous point I was trying to make. Feel free to reply in kind. Also not sure how eliminating drug problems is on the same scale as getting a cat out of a tree.

Yes, and I both confirmed and clarified my original intention behind the text. As for the cat, this time it was me trying to be sarcastic. I guess sarcasm not always plays for us as we would like it to.   🙂

This bit was me comparing your view on Reyes' desire to rule with Palpatine's public statements on the subject as he rises from Senator to Chancellor to Emperor. Your replies here fit well with my argument.

I just cannot see how they fit.

As far as I can tell Collective was never self-advertising it is there for ‘necessity’ or because of ‘people demanding it’. You Yourself declared that Collective was self-advertising as a criminal gang.

Palpatine was self-advertising himself to be a great leader/ruler and the only chance for peace in the galaxy (just to mention *few* of his promises).

Hm...missed the bit about overthrowing governments, unless you count Nexus or the Kett.

I mean taking Kadara from Anagara. You know it was not like Angara had been so happy with Sloane defeating Kett that they *asked* her to take over Kadara...

I'm going to kind of lump mistreating and torturing together as beating on non-paying citizens and mutilating some criminals as punishment (like many Middle Eastern countries do). (…) On the other side of the scale are people willing to engage in full scale torture, smugglers, assassins for hire, mercenaries willing to attack and slaughter innocents for money (ask the Collective recruiter)

While usually I would find ‘adhering to law’ to be a significant argument, the problem is that we are talking about moral superiority in this topic. Plus Sloane and Outcasts are explicitly admitting that there are no laws in badlands, and thus Collective torturing Outcast in the badlands is just as ‘lawful’ as Outcasts beating civvies in Kadara Port are.

As far as I recall what Collective recruiter tells, there is a blink-blink-not-denying-not-confirming type of answer about assassinations. We do not know about any such case, so actually we do not know if Collective is really willing to slaughter innocents – e.g. some real-life mafia families had some sets of internal rules binding them in this regard – though there is no denying that Collective has killers-for-hire on their payroll.

The thing is that *all* the Outcasts are murders to me, so in comparison Collective still pales with their professional assassins.

The guy in the torture room had his fingernails ripped out and there was a blowtorch among the "torture tools" on the wall. You often refer to beatings rather than torture when referring to the activities of the Outcasts and Collective. I am making a small distinction between beatings and torture.

OK, I do not recall the fingernails thing but I do believe You it was the case. For using blowtorch there is still no proof – it could be there to scare people rather than for actual use.

From my perspective beating is a type of torture. Sure, we can now start a discussion on ‘better’ and ‘worse’ methods of torturing people, but I really think it would be unnecessarily relative. If it matters to You, I am willing to admit that Collective is possibly more extreme in the way that they are torturing people.

Still: Outcasts are less picky as far as victims go, and they have less ‘valid’ reasons for torturing people at all.

A beating would refer to striking a person with appendages or blunt objects as a show of anger or attempted dominance, and both sides do this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture - ‘Torture (from the Latin tortus, "twisted") is the act of deliberately inflicting physical or psychological pain on an organism in order to fulfill some desire of the torturer or compel some action from the victim.’

I guess that Your definition of ‘beating’ matches ‘torture’ 100%.

Torture would refer to intentionally inflicting maximum pain or bodily harm in order to coerce someone to provide intelligence, and the Outcast being tortured indicates Sloane doesn't sanction such activities.

No, I believe that the above is a definition of 3rd degree interrogation techniques rather than of torture in general. And even then I would use some different wording.

As for the Outcast being tortured there was nothing about Sloane there. As far as I recall it was about some Outcast/pirate captain being bloodthirsty and usually going for direct kills.

Not sure where the dozen dead colleagues and girlfriend came from. The interrogators seemed WAY too calm for the Outcast guy to have hurt someone they cared about.

People react in many ways – there is no way for us to know what the interrogator felt.

You are right about the girlfriend thing – it is just a possibility. But it seemed clear to me that Collective cared about one of their agents, and was only interested in retrieving her – so she as well might have been a girlfriend of one of them. It doesn’t really matter – intentions are clear.

As for ‘dozen dead colleagues’ it is an educated guess: Outcast pirates with their captain confirmed to regularly kill prisoners probably have a lot of Collective agents on their hands.

Nice! Well Played! I would note though that it was his brother the Crown Prince (and previous next in line for the throne) not his dad he invited over, ambushed, and killed. Not to say he didn't have it coming, and dad eventually got over it.

You are absolutely right. And actually I doubt Reyes has a sister – he seems like an only child to me, basing on how self-centered he is.   🙂

Fair point, but it runs counter to your argument that Sloane has no justification for taking out Vehn Terev, given the breadth of actions that the Council accepts for the greater good.

Not really. My argument was that Vehn Terev has broken no Kadaran laws, so there was no reason for Sloane to prosecute him. If some the other parties believed Vehn Terev guilty, they could possibly ask for extradition – that’s it.

If you are no longer committing murder are you no longer a murderer? If you are no longer committing treason are you no longer a traitor?

Those are very nice questions, but the thing is that Vehn Terev has not murdered or betrayed anyone on Kadara. Actually Sloane is encouraging exiles to work as pirates, smugglers, and turncoats, so I really see no reason to prosecute Vehn Terev.

Also there is one law of Helios, recognized by all: there is no negotiation with the Kett, only blood. Vehn Terev is of the Kett faction and thus must die.

Hm… I would not be so quick about this one universal law, but I guess You are mainly correct. And I would probably accept the fact if this was the reason for which Sloane prosecutes Vehn Terev. But this is not this reason.

The Pope lives in the Vatican and is the head of all Catholics in every nation of the world. The Queen lives in England and is queen of more than a dozen independent countries. If you attack her and flee to another of her countries you can still be executed for treason because you have committed treason, even though you did it in an entirely separate country where the queen lives.

I do not think that Catholics living in Saudi Arabia would be allowed to kill recognized Pope murderer if he committed the deed somewhere else, and then tried to hide in Saudi Arabia. I am quite sure the killer would be captured and extradited to the country where the murder took place. And if the killer tried to hide on ISIS territory then we could not even hope for extradition.

As for Queen of England, sure there are quite a few countries that acknowledge her as their own, but there are many-many more that do not. As far as I understand Sloane does not recognizes Moshae to be her superior – or even her subject.

Glad you liked it. Think we can raise enough interest EA actually does it? :eahigh_file:

86 XP on the topic at the moment. Taking into account how little interest EA/BW displays, and how slow they are to react, I am afraid that we need at least thrice as many. On the other hand if someone could points the idea to Devs on Twitter or something, perhaps that would work… 😃

I can deal with the bull, but I don't want no mother F'n Snakes on my mother F'n Plane! 😉😃

No argument with that – this is a personal thing, so all people ae more than entitled to their own opinions.   🙂