The poor guy, so many seem to not like him. So what I want to know is who out there does like him and what you like about him..
Haters can stay away please! Just Liam positive here. One thread in which he doesn't end up bashed in.. you can give us that.
The first thing I thought was sweet, was Liam sleeping on the floor in SAM node right at the begining when he barely even knew Ryder. A sign of someone who cares about others no matter what.
@fudgietroll wrote:Because he's just a bad character - you would have to force yourself to like him and purposely ignore all his flaws lol.... which OP does by putting blinds over their eyes "no haters allowed."
Than again... I don't expect much from somebody who's avatar is Cassandra lol.... probably the most intolerant, and thereby intolerable character in Inquisition lol... Ashley Williams clone. Seems OP feels some sort of connection to moronic and thick headed characters, for whatever reason. Muh "I hate mages."This is pretty much the definition of taking a personal shot at someone just because you disagree with them. You just said that @Nykara360 is massively self-delusional because she is intolerant, intolerable, moronic, thick headed, and probably hateful to boot. I don't think English is @holger1405's primary language, so I'm going to try and restate the lol comment: "it is childish to assume that adding lol to abusive comments makes them "OK"". If you go up to a coworker and start laying on the F-bombs with a few lols thrown in you will still wind up dealing with HR/some knuckles, and no one will care about the lols. Also, you've been on the internet for 20 years, that makes you an adult. Don't go on a 2 paragraph rant because you are asked to behave like one.
ANYWAY, back on topic...
"The Civilians on said ships are still allowed to do their own thing in off-duty times and don't have to run to the captain constantly for every little thing. "
Not true at all OP - when you're ON a ship, even on off-duty times - you still obey the captain. Last I Checked, Liam is living on a couch in our ship - meaning he's under OUR rules the whole time. Even if he wasn't - treason isn't "every little thing" - I honestly don't know where you're from - but I'm pretty sure most governments irl on Earth would have prosecuted Liam on multiple counts of treason lol
Also you still gonna ignore his war crimes and body desecration on Habitat 7? Really just polarizing to the alleged "nice", "cool headed" and "rational" Bioware would have you believe he is. Liam is a hot mess in a Disney character's body.To be fair to Liam, IIRC Ryder never specifically forbids Liam from doing what he is doing, at least until Liam's loyalty mission. Nevertheless, if he didn't have a Ryder-shaped shield to hide behind he'd be long gone by the end of the game (given the other people Ryder has unilaterally exiled I'm surprised that wasn't an option here). Honestly, he might be more fun as an exile.
Not sure what war crimes Liam committed on Habitat 7, although he won't stop shooting the last Kett to go down, which is a classic monster movie survival tactic, as well as, IIRC, a relatively common battlefield occurrence relating to shell shock/tunnel vision
That loyalty mission- all Liam said was he gave the Angara some nexus nav points. They never even said what nav points, or how bad it really was. People could be making a huge deal out of nothing. Did he give the nav points for the outposts so they could go visit? Something you wouldn't want enemies to have but for allies is fine? It was never even specified beyond a few nexus nav points. With Liam's tendency to over react when things don’t go right, it was probably not even a big deal.
@Nykara360 wrote:
How they can win?
Ignore the males who say Kaidan is 'boring' in ME1 and look at the people who actually romanced him and see that they, liked the good guy romance.Garrus is good and not at all boring. Think outside the box, so to speak.
Well, it sounds they already have won when it comes to you. 😉
But seriously, so Bioware made at least two romance options that you liked in the trilogy and with Liam at least one in MEA as it seems. So what do you want more? That they make a game where you like all the romance options?
Did you consider that all the players with a different taste as you have would be pretty annoyed if there would be only one character-type around to romance?
What I meant with "It seems Bioware can't win here, no matter what they do" was that there will always people who hate a certainty character.
There are so many people who play Bioware games, (and all of them are different) that it is simply not possible that Bioware can make everyone happy.
Some will hate this character others this one, the point is that it doesn't matter, what matters is how you evaluate the characters and LIs in the game, because the game you play is your game and your game alone.
There are always some meme going around since Mass Effect exists, "Liara is the canon LI for Bioware, that is the canon ending for Bioware, Bioware want us to chooses Reyes over Sloane" and so on and on. And all of that is always wrong, Bioware let you choose what you want, they don't push you in one direction and that is the best thing about Mass Effect, that you can tell your own story inside the story.
That also counts for Liam. Bioware knew that he would be a controversial character, (well, maybe they didn't expect him to be that controversial. 😉 ) but they new that a lot of folks would not like him and that is exactly what the wanted.
They don't make characters for everyone to love, that would be impossible in the first place, they make characters who trigger emotions, good or bad ones, because in the end it's all about that, make the game emotional.
@holger1405 wrote:
@Nykara360 wrote:How they can win?
Ignore the males who say Kaidan is 'boring' in ME1 and look at the people who actually romanced him and see that they, liked the good guy romance.Garrus is good and not at all boring. Think outside the box, so to speak.Well, it sounds they already have won when it comes to you. 😉
But seriously, so Bioware made at least two romance options that you liked in the trilogy and with Liam at least one in MEA as it seems. So what do you want more? That they make a game where you like all the romance options?
Did you consider that all the players with a different taste as you have would be pretty annoyed if there would be only one character-type around to romance?What I meant with "It seems Bioware can't win here, no matter what they do" was that there will always people who hate a certainty character.
There are so many people who play Bioware games, (and all of them are different) that it is simply not possible that Bioware can make everyone happy.
Some will hate this character others this one, the point is that it doesn't matter, what matters is how you evaluate the characters and LIs in the game, because the game you play is your game and your game alone.
There are always some meme going around since Mass Effect exists, "Liara is the canon LI for Bioware, that is the canon ending for Bioware, Bioware want us to chooses Reyes over Sloane" and so on and on. And all of that is always wrong, Bioware let you choose what you want, they don't push you in one direction and that is the best thing about Mass Effect, that you can tell your own story inside the story.
That also counts for Liam. Bioware knew that he would be a controversial character, (well, maybe they didn't expect him to be that controversial. 😉 ) but they new that a lot of folks would not like him and that is exactly what the wanted.
They don't make characters for everyone to love, that would be impossible in the first place, they make characters who trigger emotions, good or bad ones, because in the end it's all about that, make the game emotional.
Garrus is an alien so I never romanced him, so no they havent. He was a good cha and a good friend to my Shepard. He is a good example of an interesting character who - if human I may have been interested in. About the only non-humans I ever wanted to romance was Thane, who died and they forgot even was a romance and Aric Jorgan (swtor). Now Aric IS the perfect example of an interesting character and good romance. Which would be fine but swtor is stuck in 10 yrs ago with the exact same kiss animation for every kiss which is getting old now after the 100th kiss between all the chars. They don't do interesting romance animation.
@Rappeldrache wrote:❤️ Clint Eastwood in Space type ..... ❤️
Thats just my personal impression: Cullen had a LAARGGEEEE (female) fanbase. Really a lot of girls and women loved him a lot. 🐲 Solas, Blackwall, Iron Bull had also a fanbase. Fenirs was loved by a lot of girls (and men hehehe), too. Alistair and Zevran also.Look how many Mods are still "in progress" in Dragon Age: Origins with Alistair.
Kaidan had not sooo many fans. NOW he have a few fans more. But when Mass Effect 1 was released the people dit not liked him. He was a bit like this man from Kotor (I have forgotten his name and I had a romance with him ... Carth was his name): He was not sooooo interesting, he was a bit calm and bourgeois. The same with Anomen from Baldurs Gate. Ohhh the people hated the poor Anomen a lot. 😃 I really liked him .... but I was one of the few ..... 😉
Somehow: If the men for a Romance are calm and " in the backgroud" (or bourgeois) with not toooo many (big) problems: The people say they are boring and don't like them.
Sometimes I have the impression: Liam could become a cool character if my Ryder could smacked him in the back of the head, if he is doing or saying a stupid thing ..... If Ryder could say: "Hey! Stop! Don't do this! GROW UP!" 👮
A lot of the female romance options have large followings because if we want to romance the char we like, what choice do we have? That doesn't mean we like what bioware puts us through to do it. Like having to force Alistair to sleep with Morrigan. Do I like Alistair and romance him? Yes. Do I like him sleeping with Morigan to get her pregnant? Not at all!
Cullen - I don't like the fact that they tried to retract his past. They should have delt with it.
Thane died. Didn't get a choice to keep him alive.
Now we have Liam or Reyes only human male romance options, neither are perfect options but in order to romance a char we like, we have to look past whatever flaws bioware throws at us, they always exist and find the things we do like.
P.S. if you look in the right places on the right forums - Liam has a large following, as does Reyes. We have no choice.
Holger1405 wrote:
But seriously, so Bioware made at least two romance options that you liked in the trilogy and with Liam at least one in MEA as it seems. So what do you want more? That they make a game where you like all the romance options?
Did you consider that all the players with a different taste as you have would be pretty annoyed if there would be only one character-type around to romance?
What I meant with "It seems Bioware can't win here, no matter what they do" was that there will always people who hate a certainty character.
There are so many people who play Bioware games, (and all of them are different) that it is simply not possible that Bioware can make everyone happy.
Some will hate this character others this one, the point is that it doesn't matter, what matters is how you evaluate the characters and LIs in the game, because the game you play is your game and your game alone.
There are always some meme going around since Mass Effect exists, "Liara is the canon LI for Bioware, that is the canon ending for Bioware, Bioware want us to chooses Reyes over Sloane" and so on and on. And all of that is always wrong, Bioware let you choose what you want, they don't push you in one direction and that is the best thing about Mass Effect, that you can tell your own story inside the story.
That also counts for Liam. Bioware knew that he would be a controversial character, (well, maybe they didn't expect him to be that controversial. 😉 ) but they new that a lot of folks would not like him and that is exactly what the wanted.
They don't make characters for everyone to love, that would be impossible in the first place, they make characters who trigger emotions, good or bad ones, because in the end it's all about that, make the game emotional.
I would argue that at least in the game Bioware has tried to tip the scales in favor of Reyes (it's how his character manipulates you, but still), used the Liara as the main "face" of ME after Shepard (and only fully rewarding 3-game romance), and set it up so that if you don't choose Synthesis you are a huge *, so those might not be the best examples to prove your point. You can make a choice, but there may be a significant amount of work influencing your choice towards a specific destination. As examples: Reyes seems charming and well meaning until you choose, and Sloane (despite how cool she was in Uprising) seems surly and hostile until you choose. Liara is enjoyable to romance through all 3 games, but Ash (who I initially romanced) is interesting/enjoyable in ME, distrusting in ME2, and downright hostile in ME3 (besides being frequently unavailable), taking her from being a great romance to being the most painful and unrewarding one in the game.
As for the ending, you generally die, if you defy Catalyst you fail, if you choose dominate you are just a bad person (all but stated outright), if you choose destroy you may possibly live, but you wipe out the Geth you just worked so hard to save, make Legion's sacrifice worthless, kill your loyal squadmate EDI, and break Joker's heart, which leaves Synthesis, where everyone (except you) lives happily ever after and you totally didn't just reaperize all life in the galaxy. It's pretty much like the Democratic Primary. For reasons known only to the devs, er, DNC, Biden, the decent option, is out, Hillary is in, Bernie should be out except Hillary is such a bad option, and there are a couple of yahoos to make it look like a democratic selection process not a coronation. I'd like the Republican way for my games instead, you have 17 different choices, and if the monkey's uncle wins out in the end it's not for a lack of decent options.
Anyway, what I believe @Nykara360 is asking for is a male LI who is NOT designed to be controversial with a lot of people who don't like them, who is capable of making babies with the PC. I support this ideal (ME Cullen would be nice), and am generally a fan of more options is better philosophy. Honestly, Bioware is perfectly capable of torpedoing characters or redeeming/enhancing them, so the long term enjoyability of any character is pretty much in their hands.
I know that you have a point about different characters an paths drawing each individual (I know there are LIs and other people and choices I am really drawn to), but @Nykara360 has a point, there do seem to be some LIs, characters, and choices that it seems Bioware goes out of its way to make sure we AREN'T drawn to.
They almost always do something with the human male romance options for straight females that they know is going to annoy half or more of the fans of said characters.
Kaidan, Horizon. He lost a lot of the fans he did have over that incident.
Jacob, cheats.
No other human male romance option in the original trilogy.
Dragon Age Origins - Alistair. Unless he or the Warden dies, he has to sleep with Morrigan. As much as I adore Alistair, that's just creepy as and unnecessary. She could have found any guy off the street to screw.
Dragon Age 2 - Anders. Uses you to get in and blow up the chantry and a bunch of civilians.
Dragon Age Inquisition - Blackwall, sleeps with you then leaves you a dear john letter at which point you find out he murdered an entire family and has been lying to you the whole time.
Cullen - although he kind of works through it, he really isn't a big fan of mages even though you can romance him as one.
Mass Effect Andromeda, Liam's loyalty mission which in itself is not explained very well. Due to that a lot of people really dislike him. Also if you are romancing him, he is still keeping things from you which is something I maybe able to overlook but is always going to annoy a lot of people.
Reyes - also keeps secrets from you and uses you to get to Sloane.
In SWTOR there is one who even tries to kill you. And one who is super jealous.
Now seriously, tell me this isn't a long list of seriously messed up human male romance options for females. Where's the normal choice? The one whose screw up isn't directly related to your romance with them. They can have a messy past and be a complicated character. A slow burn romance even because of it, without totally messing you over in the middle of an actual romance with them. Or just, you know the normal everyday guy who is fun.
They can do it with the alien romances (Garrus, Jaal, even Thane you knew what you where getting in for first) but apparently can't go without something pretty messed up happening in the middle of the human male romances. Ive romanced many of the human males in these games and fangirled over them, over looking their flaws because there are no other options, not if you want to romance a human male on a female char. So what I'm saying is, we put up with it because of lack of options but a normal one would be nice.
Your right @Nykara360 : Why the men get a nice, friendly, loyal Liara? A sweet Tali. A crazy, wild Jack. A serious Ashley or a really HOT Miranda. Give the females just HALF of the choice the men have. Give us .... yes, why we don't have something like Kal'Reegar. A "normal, friendly hero".
I try to write it in english: Why Bioware don't try this "experimental-we-want-that-it's-an-controversal-character-Bul lshit" with the MALE romance options? Look at the romance options in ME for males: All of them "dream girls". And the females? "Controversal characters" ..... keep them. 😛
And WHY does Bioware want controversal characters as romance option for females, but the men get hot Dream-girls? Does Bioware want to loose all the femals fans?
Can't write this in english, sorry:
Tja Mäuseken, abbbbeeer: Wenn es auch für die männlichen Romanzen gelten würde, kein Ding. Aber die Frauen kriegen diese ganzen problembeladenen Dumpfbacken, die keine andere Frau auch nur mit der Kneifzange anfassen würde. Und die Männer bekommen lauter heisse Traumfrauen. Wenn du also meinst, dass Bioware das "so wollte", dann frage ich mich: Warum zum Henker? Wollen sie umbedingt, ums Verrecken, die Frauen als Kunden loswerden? Haben sie noch nicht bemerkt, dass der weibliche Fan-Anteil massiv gestiegen ist?
Und als Nachtrag: Ich denke nicht, dass der durchschnittliche Bioware Kunde sich so sehr vom durchschnittlichen Kinogänger unterscheidet, mal so als Beispiel. Und wenn wir einmal ins Kino gehen und uns hier die Burschen anschauen, da sehe ich aber nur heisse "Klische Traummänner": Von Wolverine, Starlord, Cpt. America usw. Warum meinen die Bioware-Macher, dass Frauen im Spiel dann auf solche willensschwache, arschige Looser stehen? 😛 (wobei die nicht alle sooo schlimm sind).
@Rappeldrache wrote:Your right @Nykara360 : Why the men get a nice, friendly, loyal Liara? A sweet Tali. A crazy, wild Jack. A serious Ashley or a really HOT Miranda. Give the females just HALF of the choice the men have. Give us .... yes, why we don't have something like Kal'Reegar. A "normal, friendly hero".
What do you mean with Liara? The women get Liara too.
Now in ME1, the field was pretty even I would think. You had one choice for male shepard only (Ashley), one for female only (Kaidan) and one for both (Liara). Of course Liara does look female so it's clear that the focus is very on male heterosexual players as there is no male-male romance possible.
Then in ME2, this is clearly the same. The difference between ME1 and 2 being that you have 3 options in each category totalling 8 romance options. Again the romance options than go either with a male or female shepard all look female (2 asari and a human female).
But I do have to say that I am wondering how the same amount of options for femshep only as male shep only translates to so much inequality to you as a woman. For me so far the only group of players losing out in ME1 and 2 are the gay male players.
Then let's see ME3. Here it gets a lot trickier because some of the romance options are dependent on what happened in ME1 and ME2 or having the Citadel DLC. There are many that are continuations and are only options if you pursued a relationship with them previously. Still, the choices are there since you can create a new character and dictate that history. So there is in my view a lean towards choices for a male shepard, also introducing male-male relationships. Overall you can see that the male shepard has the most options when it comes to the opposite sex. There is no denying that, the numbers are there. I think if they had made Diane Allers a male reporter it would've done a lot to tip the balance.
So only in ME3 do you see that difference really. Why? Well, probably because even today the vast majority of players of games like this are probably still male heterosexual gamers.
As a sidenote, you mention that Miranda is really hot and Ashley is serious, but I'd say that Ashley is also really hot particulary in ME3.
I really don't think that Bioware is wanting to get rid of female players though. I mean how many other game makers have all these romance options and ME:A is divided fairly evenly. I mean realy, I don't know. Which other games of other game makers have such romance options as we have here? I honestly don't know.
And in the end I am a male heterosexual player who prefers playing female characters but still wants to romance females. Whatever, it's how I tick. I prefer female protagonists but I also want to romance female counterparts if that makes sense to anyone. So I would also have liked more female romances to be available to femshep, but I didn't get that. I will never be able to romance Ashley, Jack or Miranda from that point of view. But you know, that's kinda how things go. Not every love interest is reciprocated. So I accept that.
EgoMania wrote:
Rappeldrache wrote:
Your right @Nykara360 : Why the men get a nice, friendly, loyal Liara? A sweet Tali. A crazy, wild Jack. A serious Ashley or a really HOT Miranda. Give the females just HALF of the choice the men have. Give us .... yes, why we don't have something like Kal'Reegar. A "normal, friendly hero".
What do you mean with Liara? The women get Liara too.
Now in ME1, the field was pretty even I would think. You had one choice for male shepard only (Ashley), one for female only (Kaidan) and one for both (Liara). Of course Liara does look female so it's clear that the focus is very on male heterosexual players as there is no male-male romance possible.
Then in ME2, this is clearly the same. The difference between ME1 and 2 being that you have 3 options in each category totalling 8 romance options. Again the romance options than go either with a male or female shepard all look female (2 asari and a human female).
But I do have to say that I am wondering how the same amount of options for femshep only as male shep only translates to so much inequality to you as a woman. For me so far the only group of players losing out in ME1 and 2 are the gay male players.
Then let's see ME3. Here it gets a lot trickier because some of the romance options are dependent on what happened in ME1 and ME2 or having the Citadel DLC. There are many that are continuations and are only options if you pursued a relationship with them previously. Still, the choices are there since you can create a new character and dictate that history. So there is in my view a lean towards choices for a male shepard, also introducing male-male relationships. Overall you can see that the male shepard has the most options when it comes to the opposite sex. There is no denying that, the numbers are there. I think if they had made Diane Allers a male reporter it would've done a lot to tip the balance.
So only in ME3 do you see that difference really. Why? Well, probably because even today the vast majority of players of games like this are probably still male heterosexual gamers.
As a sidenote, you mention that Miranda is really hot and Ashley is serious, but I'd say that Ashley is also really hot particulary in ME3.
I really don't think that Bioware is wanting to get rid of female players though. I mean how many other game makers have all these romance options and ME:A is divided fairly evenly. I mean realy, I don't know. Which other games of other game makers have such romance options as we have here? I honestly don't know.
And in the end I am a male heterosexual player who prefers playing female characters but still wants to romance females. Whatever, it's how I tick. I prefer female protagonists but I also want to romance female counterparts if that makes sense to anyone. So I would also have liked more female romances to be available to femshep, but I didn't get that. I will never be able to romance Ashley, Jack or Miranda from that point of view. But you know, that's kinda how things go. Not every love interest is reciprocated. So I accept that.
The difference being the males romance options in ME2 carried over into ME3. For the females they did not.
Also you got two female human choices and 1 alien. We got one human, two aliens and out of those one cheats in ME3 and the other dies. The only one that carries is Garrus. Since Miranda, Jack, Tali and Liara(LotSB) all carry into ME3 hows that equal exactly?
@Nykara360 wrote:The difference being the males romance options in ME2 carried over into ME3. For the females they did not.
Also you got two female human choices and 1 alien. We got one human, two aliens and out of those one cheats in ME3 and the other dies. The only one that carries is Garrus. Since Miranda, Jack, Tali and Liara(LotSB) all carry into ME3 hows that equal exactly?
As I said, it's not equal in ME3. Only ME1 and 2 had an equal division except for male-male relationships which didn't exist at all. So why you think that I said it was equal is rather a mystery to me. You really made that up completely, I never said it was equal but I do think BW gave more options than other games.
And ME3 at least introduced male-male relationships which was a much bigger inequality. I find it a shame that most people seem to have no thought for that scenario.
And let's not get stuck in the past anyway. The Shepard story is done and if you look at ME:A I think they made things rather more equal, don't you think? In fact a female Ryder has 2 male human options and a male Ryder only has 1 female human option.
And really, how many story driven RPGs are out there that give you the option to play both a male or female protagonist that both have romance options across genders? If you do, tell me, cause I'd like to check them out. But I think the truth is that most RPGs that come out these days still have mostly male protagonists and very limited romance options if any at all.
Feel free to prove me wrong. I'd love to know about more games like this but I fear that outside of BW games there isn't a whole ot of that going on.
You tell me...
