God... not another one, think I will start complaining again lol... sigh... ok just 1 line and I will stop... Bioware can fix the conversation wheel, they can fix the animation, they can fix a lot if they put in time and resources, but they cant fix the writing... story telling and writing is not at the previous level of the ME trilogy. If I am lucky they can fix this in MEA2.
Paragon/Renegade system has its pros and cons. I liked the option of being a Bad As* when I have to be, but I disliked the need to accumulate paragon or renegade points to open up conversation and decision options. Well still beats being Ryder... Wuss...
@VladVonCastein wrote:
God... not another one, think I will start complaining again lol... sigh... ok just 1 line and I will stop... Bioware can fix the conversation wheel, they can fix the animation, they can fix a lot if they put in time and resources, but they cant fix the writing... story telling and writing is not at the previous level of the ME trilogy. If I am lucky they can fix this in MEA2.
Heh. If you want, select the worst bit of writing from ME1-3 and I'll see if I can find one bit of ME:A that is better? 👿
Not arguing it isn't better as a whole now. Am saying you had a team that worked on a series for years, listening to and incorporating feedback, and they made three volumes PLUS dlc. Here you don't... yet?
@jpcerutti1 wrote:
@VladVonCastein wrote:
God... not another one, think I will start complaining again lol... sigh... ok just 1 line and I will stop... Bioware can fix the conversation wheel, they can fix the animation, they can fix a lot if they put in time and resources, but they cant fix the writing... story telling and writing is not at the previous level of the ME trilogy. If I am lucky they can fix this in MEA2.
Heh. If you want, select the worst bit of writing from ME1-3 and I'll see if I can find one bit of ME:A that is better? 👿
Not arguing it isn't better as a whole now. Am saying you had a team that worked on a series for years, listening to and incorporating feedback, and they made three volumes PLUS dlc. Here you don't... yet?
Sheesh, why are you looking for the worst? Take the best vs the best or the worst vs the worst... Dont think anything can beat "My face is tired.".. you can try lololol....
Think I mentioned this on another thread. It's not the number of DLCs and number of mass effect games, its also the time spend playing the game, on my first playthrough(which should be the most representative cause you are still groping around in the dark) I spent a good 120-140 hrs on MEA. Think that's more than ME1(50-60hrs) plus ME2(30hrs tops) + ME3(maybe around 40hrs). So the potential is there, but they squandered the opportunity.
They didnt build, they showed planets after planets scanning it and you find rivers and mountains that gives you 270 exp. And make you fly everywhere chasing after a pregnant woman or a infected woman or drive around looking for a little mouse like you are some pest control company. They could have used that time to develop characters, add humor, add meaningful deep conversations. Eg blue rose of illum it took a total of how many mins to execute? If you add up all conversations think its about 3-5mins. In comparison how long does it take to execute the Erics story? Probably much longer as you need to drive around quite a bit, but at the end of it, whilst I was genuinely touched by the blue rose story, the Erics story left me cringing. "Sniffle sniffle..." at the end? oh man... It's the quality of writing. EG... You pick up a 100 page book thats written by a best selling author, you read it you enjoy it and at the end of the story, you are a better person because of it. You gain, intellectually, you learn a few new words or the way you string a series of words together and made it classy. You pick up another book, it's 1000 pages of poorly written content that bored you. You gain nothing from it. That's the difference in my opinion.
Another example... Remember when Shepard lets Grunt out from the tank? After a series of debate with EDI, he decided to open the tank and let grunt out... What did EDI say in response? "Very well Shepard. The Controls are online. The Switch... And Consequences... Are yours..." Short, Clear, Concise, Subtle, Classy, Intelligent. In MEA with great creativity and poetry, you have... "pathfinder you have new email. the temperature is falling pathfinder. pathfinder this area can be mined for resources..."
@jpcerutti1 wrote:
@VladVonCastein wrote:
God... not another one, think I will start complaining again lol... sigh... ok just 1 line and I will stop... Bioware can fix the conversation wheel, they can fix the animation, they can fix a lot if they put in time and resources, but they cant fix the writing... story telling and writing is not at the previous level of the ME trilogy. If I am lucky they can fix this in MEA2.
Heh. If you want, select the worst bit of writing from ME1-3 and I'll see if I can find one bit of ME:A that is better? 👿
Not arguing it isn't better as a whole now. Am saying you had a team that worked on a series for years, listening to and incorporating feedback, and they made three volumes PLUS dlc. Here you don't... yet?
Exactly this. MEA is often brutally compared to the original trilogy, which isn't really fair to MEA, conversations or otherwise. The conversations/interactions of Ryder and his/her crew need to be fleshed out and further developed, but I think the current system can be (and I do mean "can be" not necessarily "will be") expanded to be better than ME1-3.
@VladVonCastein wrote:
@jpcerutti1 wrote:
@VladVonCastein wrote:
God... not another one, think I will start complaining again lol... sigh... ok just 1 line and I will stop... Bioware can fix the conversation wheel, they can fix the animation, they can fix a lot if they put in time and resources, but they cant fix the writing... story telling and writing is not at the previous level of the ME trilogy. If I am lucky they can fix this in MEA2.
Heh. If you want, select the worst bit of writing from ME1-3 and I'll see if I can find one bit of ME:A that is better? 👿
Not arguing it isn't better as a whole now. Am saying you had a team that worked on a series for years, listening to and incorporating feedback, and they made three volumes PLUS dlc. Here you don't... yet?
Sheesh, why are you looking for the worst? Take the best vs the best or the worst vs the worst... Dont think anything can beat "My face is tired.".. you can try lololol....
Think I mentioned this on another thread. It's not the number of DLCs and number of mass effect games, its also the time spend playing the game, on my first playthrough(which should be the most representative cause you are still groping around in the dark) I spent a good 120-140 hrs on MEA. Think that's more than ME1(50-60hrs) plus ME2(30hrs tops) + ME3(maybe around 40hrs). So the potential is there, but they squandered the opportunity.
They didnt build, they showed planets after planets scanning it and you find rivers and mountains that gives you 270 exp. And may you fly everywhere chasing after a pregnant woman or a infected woman or drive around looking for a little mouse like you are some pest control company. They could have used that time to develop characters, add humor, add meaningful deep conversations. Eg blue rose of illum it took a total of how many mins to execute? If you add up all conversations think its about 3-5mins. In comparison how long does it take to execute the Erics story? Probably much longer as you need to drive around quite a bit, but at the end of it, whilst I was genuinely touched by the blue rose story, the Erics story left me cringing. "Sniffle sniffle..." at the end? oh man... It's the quality of writing. EG... You pick up a 100 page book thats written by a best selling author, you read it you enjoy it and at the end of the story, you are a better person because of it. You gain, intellectually, you learn a few new words or the way you string a series of words together and made it classy. You pick up another book, it's 1000 pages of poorly written content that bored you. You gain nothing from it. That's the difference in my opinion.
Another example... Remember when Shepard lets Grunt out from the tank? After a series of debate with EDI, he decided to open the tank and let grunt out... What did EDI say in response? "Very well Shepard. The Controls are online. The Switch... And Consequences... Are yours..." Short, Clear, Concise, Subtle, Classy. In MEA with great creativity and poetry, you have... "pathfinder you have new email. the temperature is falling pathfinder. pathfinder this area can be mined for resources..."
You know those aren't the rules for the game.🙂
Be brave. Pick the worst.👿
You know those aren't the rules for the game.🙂
Be brave. Pick the worst.👿
Problem is I dont think I can remember a line as bad as "My face is Tired" None of it is so glaringly bad that I can remember... But I can remember lots of great lines... More so than MEA. Anyway not playing poker with Gil(unless I have an AI), also not playing a game designed and weighted to your advantage. 😬
I Should Go.
@VladVonCastein wrote:
You know those aren't the rules for the game.🙂
Be brave. Pick the worst.👿
Problem is I dont think I can remember a line as bad as "My face is Tired" None of it is so glaringly bad that I can remember... But I can remember lots of great lines... More so than MEA. Anyway not playing poker with Gil(unless I have an AI), also not playing a game designed and weighted to your advantage. 😬
I Should Go.
Never said it was a fair game. Actually, I think it an unfair one either way.
Am saying you had a team that worked on a series for years, listening to and incorporating feedback, and they made three volumes PLUS dlc. Here you don't... yet?
And then they had 3 games to have a basis on how it is done and they ... didn't?
Anyway, regarding what the OP pointed out, yeah, it's annoying. Sounds are rather faulty in that game. I remember in new Tchuchanka, with Drack on my team, we would talk to Krogans, the goddamn câmera would come to our shoulder, fixe there, and sometimes Drack would speak, but the view was simply stuck there, Drack sounding as if coming from a radio, but he's just behind me. Some camera manipulation should help a little. The rest is unsalvagable. Just grab the nearest person and thrown youselves into the darkness and see who comes out on the other side. ^_^
@PandaTar wrote:
Am saying you had a team that worked on a series for years, listening to and incorporating feedback, and they made three volumes PLUS dlc. Here you don't... yet?
And then they had 3 games to have a basis on how it is done and they ... didn't?
Anyway, regarding what the OP pointed out, yeah, it's annoying. Sounds are rather faulty in that game. I remember in new Tchuchanka, with Drack on my team, we would talk to Krogans, the goddamn câmera would come to our shoulder, fixe there, and sometimes Drack would speak, but the view was simply stuck there, Drack sounding as if coming from a radio, but he's just behind me. Some camera manipulation should help a little. The rest is unsalvagable. Just grab the nearest person and thrown youselves into the darkness and see who comes out on the other side. ^_^
Hey, if you want in on this you have to pick the worst bit of dialogue from the first series. 😃
I'll even be brave.
Nothing in ME:A was as bad as having to find 25 Keepers. I can find lots of things in ME:A that beat that. I'll even go a second one. Vega's pullup challenge. There were some great highs in there, and a lot of good writing, but it wasn't ALL spot on shining stars. They had years to develop and hone their craft to bring me Vega's pullup challenge.
And let's not forget that a very important, near crucial option isn't in the game.....
punch a reporter in the face :D
@nexusmagoo wrote:
And let's not forget that a very important, near crucial option isn't in the game.....
punch a reporter in the face :D
Keri T'Vessa? Make love, not war, mon ami. Stay thirsty.
@jpcerutti1 wrote:
@PandaTar wrote:
Am saying you had a team that worked on a series for years, listening to and incorporating feedback, and they made three volumes PLUS dlc. Here you don't... yet?
And then they had 3 games to have a basis on how it is done and they ... didn't?
Anyway, regarding what the OP pointed out, yeah, it's annoying. Sounds are rather faulty in that game. I remember in new Tchuchanka, with Drack on my team, we would talk to Krogans, the goddamn câmera would come to our shoulder, fixe there, and sometimes Drack would speak, but the view was simply stuck there, Drack sounding as if coming from a radio, but he's just behind me. Some camera manipulation should help a little. The rest is unsalvagable. Just grab the nearest person and thrown youselves into the darkness and see who comes out on the other side. ^_^
Hey, if you want in on this you have to pick the worst bit of dialogue from the first series. 😃
I'll even be brave.
Nothing in ME:A was as bad as having to find 25 Keepers. I can find lots of things in ME:A that beat that. I'll even go a second one. Vega's pullup challenge. There were some great highs in there, and a lot of good writing, but it wasn't ALL spot on shining stars. They had years to develop and hone their craft to bring me Vega's pullup challenge.
Ok, am going to help out my buddy panda here... Unearthed, Hitting rocks for science, cultivation, little mouse... Shall I go on? lol... The Keepers are all in the Citadel, took me 20 mins visiting places that I needed to walk pass anyway. All contained in a relatively small place. Damn little mouse made me drive around,sppent so much time on it and dont think I ever completed it as SAM mentioned my map was marked but there wasnt any marker. There wasnt even any story to most of the quest and they just ends! And some are buggy... The keepers however may look like bugs but they dont have bugs lol... had a crucial plot to their name as well.
Also ME1 was a decade ago, in 10 years, we progress, our expectations are higher, what was annoying then, is even more so NOW!
@jpcerutti1 wrote:
@nexusmagoo wrote:
And let's not forget that a very important, near crucial option isn't in the game.....
punch a reporter in the face :D
Keri T'Vessa? Make love, not war, mon ami. Stay thirsty.
Oh yah, that's one improvement... Keri's definitely nicer than chobot...(Allers)
@VladVonCastein wrote:
@jpcerutti1 wrote:
@PandaTar wrote:
Am saying you had a team that worked on a series for years, listening to and incorporating feedback, and they made three volumes PLUS dlc. Here you don't... yet?
And then they had 3 games to have a basis on how it is done and they ... didn't?
Anyway, regarding what the OP pointed out, yeah, it's annoying. Sounds are rather faulty in that game. I remember in new Tchuchanka, with Drack on my team, we would talk to Krogans, the goddamn câmera would come to our shoulder, fixe there, and sometimes Drack would speak, but the view was simply stuck there, Drack sounding as if coming from a radio, but he's just behind me. Some camera manipulation should help a little. The rest is unsalvagable. Just grab the nearest person and thrown youselves into the darkness and see who comes out on the other side. ^_^
Hey, if you want in on this you have to pick the worst bit of dialogue from the first series. 😃
I'll even be brave.
Nothing in ME:A was as bad as having to find 25 Keepers. I can find lots of things in ME:A that beat that. I'll even go a second one. Vega's pullup challenge. There were some great highs in there, and a lot of good writing, but it wasn't ALL spot on shining stars. They had years to develop and hone their craft to bring me Vega's pullup challenge.
Ok, am going to help our my buddy panda here... Unearthed, Hitting rocks for science, cultivation, little mouse... Shall I go on? lol... The Keepers are all in the Citadel, took me 20 mins visiting places that I needed to walk pass anyway. All contained in a relatively small place. Damn little mouse made me drive around,sppent so much time on it and dont think I ever completed it as SAM mentioned my map was marked but there wasnt any marker. There wasnt even any story to most of the quest and they just ends! And some are buggy... The keepers however may look like bugs but they dont have bugs lol... had a crucial plot to their name as well.Also ME1 was a decade ago, in 10 years, we progress, our expectations are higher, what was annoying then, is even more so NOW!
You are *still* not playing the game right. Give me your worst ME1-3. Or, if you don't want to pick worst, stack James Vega and his pullup challenge against the best thing you think ME:A did. 👿
Help you out. I am devil's advocating you. 😃
@jpcerutti1 wrote:
@VladVonCastein wrote:
@jpcerutti1 wrote:
You are *still* not playing the game right. Give me your worst ME1-3. Or, if you don't want to pick worst, stack James Vega and his pullup challenge against the best thing you think ME:A did. 👿
Well, ok you win... The best thing in MEA is like the best thing in life... Romance... Sex... Vs Vega's pull-ups... you win... On the topic of sex in MEA and since you just mentioned Keri the reporter, really liked her with her cute british accent, saying "Pathfinder do you have just a minute... " It was just great... the flirts, then meeting her at the bar, I was all excited, thinking if I brought my space rubber along... She bought me snacks, oh yummy, we had some drinks and it was a sure thing..... I am gonna score a hot chick asari babe with a british accent... WOOHOO lets go to her apartment!!! Errr what happened? Why am I standing in front of her apartment? Errr where is she... Is it over? OMG was I drunk? Was it a premature ejaculation moment for me? Looked at Ryder with a bit of disappointment on my face, young man, no control... Pull ups with Vega suddenly seem like a better option... At least I would have felt like a real man after beating his record!
@VladVonCastein wrote:
@jpcerutti1 wrote:
@VladVonCastein wrote:
@jpcerutti1 wrote:
You are *still* not playing the game right. Give me your worst ME1-3. Or, if you don't want to pick worst, stack James Vega and his pullup challenge against the best thing you think ME:A did. 👿
Well, ok you win... The best thing in MEA is like the best thing in life... Romance... Sex... Vs Vega's pull-ups... you win... On the topic of sex in MEA and since you just mentioned Keri the reporter, really liked her with her cute british accent, saying "Pathfinder do you have just a minute... " It was just great... the flirts, then meeting her at the bar, I was all excited, thinking if I brought my space rubber along... She bought me snacks, oh yummy, we had some drinks and it was a sure thing..... I am gonna score a hot chick asari babe with a british accent... WOOHOO lets go to her apartment!!! Errr what happened? Why am I standing in front of her apartment? Errr where is she... Is it over? OMG was I drunk? Was it a premature ejaculation moment for me? Looked at Ryder with a bit of disappointment on my face, young man, no control... Pull ups with Vega suddenly seem like a better option... At least I would have felt like a real man after beating his record!
Nothing to win, and I certainly don't think ME:A was the best thing ever written. It has flaws. Lots of them.
I do think they had a high bar to try and clear with a single jump and, just because they knocked it off on the first vault, you can't declare a failure and pick apart technique. Best and worst are bad ways to measure. Content for three plus dlc against one is also a bad way to measure.
Dissappointment is real. No doubt. I don't think I would of attempted the vault myself.
I'm glad they did though. I also hope they try the leap again.
PS: Keri I was joking - if Keri is your thing they were pretty good about averaging out romantic face time with interests over the course of the series plus dlc for anyone introduced in the first game as possible interest... or did you think Keri was the best part of ME:A?👿
@jpcerutti1 wrote:
Nothing to win, and I certainly don't think ME:A was the best thing ever written. It has flaws. Lots of them.
I do think they had a high bar to try and clear with a single jump and, just because they knocked it off on the first vault, you can't declare a failure and pick apart technique. Best and worst are bad ways to measure. Content for three plus dlc against one is also a bad way to measure.
Dissappointment is real. No doubt. I don't think I would of attempted the vault myself.
I'm glad they did though. I also hope they try the leap again.
PS: Keri I was joking - if Keri is your thing they were pretty good about averaging out romantic face time with interests over the course of the series plus dlc for anyone introduced in the first game as possible interest.
Well its business and I do understand business. They want the money that Mass Effect brings then they will have to jump higher than the previous series else they will lose fans. The thing is Bioware management knows what needs to be done, they know what it takes to succeed in this business. Someone up there made some very bad calls. I would rather fans shout out loud so that the gods in Bioware ivory towers could hear the peasants scream and hopefully they will do something about it in MEA2. Else 3-5 years down the road, I will once again look forward to the launch, believe the hype, buy the game and I will see you again in 3-5 years in this board talking about the same thing... Why we prefer ME trilogy more than MEA1 and MEA2. And some will hate and some will give bioware excuses. The CYCLE continues. lol.
As for Keri, well, she's the 2nd best reporter so far for ME... Definitely better than Allers and khalisah al-jilani, but Emily Wong's death is just heroic... and its a little disgusting that it didnt even make the game... So for me, she's still no 1.
@PandaTar wrote:
Am saying you had a team that worked on a series for years, listening to and incorporating feedback, and they made three volumes PLUS dlc. Here you don't... yet?
And then they had 3 games to have a basis on how it is done and they ... didn't?
Anyway, regarding what the OP pointed out, yeah, it's annoying. Sounds are rather faulty in that game. I remember in new Tchuchanka, with Drack on my team, we would talk to Krogans, the goddamn câmera would come to our shoulder, fixe there, and sometimes Drack would speak, but the view was simply stuck there, Drack sounding as if coming from a radio, but he's just behind me. Some camera manipulation should help a little. The rest is unsalvagable. Just grab the nearest person and thrown youselves into the darkness and see who comes out on the other side. ^_^
LOL yes... I had that too, not only in New Tuchanka but in other places as well.
They could've had the script trigger a play-back: Pre-record then only play the video and dialogue all together equalized volumes, camera animation.... 🙂
I don't know...but yes, there you go ... nice example you mentioned "Some camera manipulation should help a little" ...that looks pre-recorded already. Team members are already in a pre-established position and Camera also has animation, so the scene is already setup.
Now... i'm not sure "how" they are doing/scripting all these scenes/dialogues, but in ME:A looks like most of the scenes/dialogues happen in the actual game-play time since you just "stop" and talk. Sometimes even talk to the wall/crate if the dialogue is triggered lol The only thing that changes is the camera moving over the shoulder, except for some of the cut-scenes which i don't think they are video files either but they have a better setup. I'm sure it would take an enormous time to do that for all side mission dialogues, but at least volume levels could be adjusted.
@draqonin wrote:
@PandaTar wrote:
Am saying you had a team that worked on a series for years, listening to and incorporating feedback, and they made three volumes PLUS dlc. Here you don't... yet?
And then they had 3 games to have a basis on how it is done and they ... didn't?
Anyway, regarding what the OP pointed out, yeah, it's annoying. Sounds are rather faulty in that game. I remember in new Tchuchanka, with Drack on my team, we would talk to Krogans, the goddamn câmera would come to our shoulder, fixe there, and sometimes Drack would speak, but the view was simply stuck there, Drack sounding as if coming from a radio, but he's just behind me. Some camera manipulation should help a little. The rest is unsalvagable. Just grab the nearest person and thrown youselves into the darkness and see who comes out on the other side. ^_^
LOL yes... I had that too, not only in New Tuchanka but in other places as well.
They could've had the script trigger a play-back: Pre-record then only play the video and dialogue all together equalized volumes, camera animation.... 🙂
I don't know...but yes, there you go ... nice example you mentioned "Some camera manipulation should help a little" ...that looks pre-recorded already. Team members are already in a pre-established position and Camera also has animation, so the scene is already setup.
Now... i'm not sure "how" they are doing/scripting all these scenes/dialogues, but in ME:A looks like most of the scenes/dialogues happen in the actual game-play time since you just "stop" and talk. Sometimes even talk to the wall/crate if the dialogue is triggered lol The only thing that changes is the camera moving over the shoulder, except for some of the cut-scenes which i don't think they are video files either but they have a better setup. I'm sure it would take an enormous time to do that for all side mission dialogues, but at least volume levels could be adjusted.
Don't blame PandaTar for my musings... and Vega with his pullup challenge was some of the last bits they produced/wrote. I loved the original series, but fond memories hide flaws, not make them disappear.
Dialogue wasn't as much of an issue in the original series, and there was more emphasis on the music... because there wasn't so much banter and dialogue that you had to figure out ways not to walk all over it. You needed the music to fill the silence. Cutscenes were done in a completely different way. Here they went with a way that allowed much more quantity wise than fewer fully rendered quality wise. You may, or may not, like the changes. I really like that there are *so* many more of them - and think they will continue to work on how to make them better.
@nexusmagoo wrote:
And let's not forget that a very important, near crucial option isn't in the game.....
punch a reporter in the face :D
Well, Tann hasn't found one yet that will do what he wants, but when he does we will. Or, alternatively, we could fill that pit in the docking area with mud and let Keri and her go at it
@jpcerutti1 wrote:
@draqonin wrote:
@PandaTar wrote:
Am saying you had a team that worked on a series for years, listening to and incorporating feedback, and they made three volumes PLUS dlc. Here you don't... yet?
And then they had 3 games to have a basis on how it is done and they ... didn't?
Anyway, regarding what the OP pointed out, yeah, it's annoying. Sounds are rather faulty in that game. I remember in new Tchuchanka, with Drack on my team, we would talk to Krogans, the goddamn câmera would come to our shoulder, fixe there, and sometimes Drack would speak, but the view was simply stuck there, Drack sounding as if coming from a radio, but he's just behind me. Some camera manipulation should help a little. The rest is unsalvagable. Just grab the nearest person and thrown youselves into the darkness and see who comes out on the other side. ^_^
LOL yes... I had that too, not only in New Tuchanka but in other places as well.
They could've had the script trigger a play-back: Pre-record then only play the video and dialogue all together equalized volumes, camera animation.... 🙂
I don't know...but yes, there you go ... nice example you mentioned "Some camera manipulation should help a little" ...that looks pre-recorded already. Team members are already in a pre-established position and Camera also has animation, so the scene is already setup.
Now... i'm not sure "how" they are doing/scripting all these scenes/dialogues, but in ME:A looks like most of the scenes/dialogues happen in the actual game-play time since you just "stop" and talk. Sometimes even talk to the wall/crate if the dialogue is triggered lol The only thing that changes is the camera moving over the shoulder, except for some of the cut-scenes which i don't think they are video files either but they have a better setup. I'm sure it would take an enormous time to do that for all side mission dialogues, but at least volume levels could be adjusted.
Don't blame PandaTar for my musings... and Vega with his pullup challenge was some of the last bits they produced/wrote. I loved the original series, but fond memories hide flaws, not make them disappear.
Dialogue wasn't as much of an issue in the original series, and there was more emphasis on the music... because there wasn't so much banter and dialogue that you had to figure out ways not to walk all over it. You needed the music to fill the silence. Cutscenes were done in a completely different way. Here they went with a way that allowed much more quantity wise than fewer fully rendered quality wise. You may, or may not, like the changes. I really like that there are *so* many more of them - and think they will continue to work on how to make them better.
lol i didn't blame ... i totally agree with Panda.
And yes, i like there's more dialogue as well, but they are kind of flat... almost like listening to news channel 🙂 oh well...
