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Limp_KidzKit's avatar
Limp_KidzKit
3 years ago

NHL Needs a Total Systems/Strategy Revamp

Guys and girls....we need a completely new appraoch to strategies in this game...this is programmed to play like U10 hockey at the moment where were just happy to see a defensive player standing in the defensive slot, or an offensive player going at the puck...theres no purpose to these strategies...we need to prrgram these right for this game to ever taker a step foerward.

Offensively:

  • Overload - this isnt a 5v5 strategy...its an outdated powerplay strategy that the 1-3-1 and umbrella can look like when establishing possession but then morphs into their respective looks...please update to a standard 5v5 cycle as shown below
  • Behind the net - this isnt as "structured" or "accepted" as the standard cycle...but involves lots of picks/screens and rolls. way too static right now
  • Crash the net - should feel like behind the net without as much movement...basically a btn guy with two screeners and youre just constantly feeding the point...little cycling/movement..more board passes up the wall with a D shot then retrieve and repeat over and over

standard hockey cycle

Starting spots - as you can see we have net front presence on the strong side with a 3rd man high to create space for F1 and for good defenisve posture

Starting the cycle - F1 moves up the wall...F2 anticipating cycle to strong side...F3 moving towrds the middle and a little lower anticipating the cycle - D1 startts back movement towards middle anticipating a pass from f1 so they can walk to the middle

Cycle 1 - F1 cycles the puck low and F2 retrieves....F1 with a hard cut to the high slot to replace F3 while F3 moves to the net front to replace F2

cycle 2 - the final points after the movement....rinse and repeat 

Point cycle

well restart with the starting skating spot

Point 1 - F1 passes to D1 and D1 walks to the slot...D2 walks to weakside tops of circles/boards area..F1 follow pass to blueline and then opens hips to slot to be an attack option on a return pass from D1....F3 takes the net front role as they are in the middle while F2 makes themselves a backdoor/cycle reset/retrieval option on the current strong side

Point 2 - ending points after the previous movement - shape should look like an umbrella with two forwards in the "alley" between the dots (want a screen and a backdoor/tip option)

Point 3 - assuming we dont shoot - heres D1 moving to D2 option...F3 maintains screen and rotates with puck/angle which is also a great spot for a cycle retrieval and F2 remains backdoor option

Point 4 - ending spots for clarity

Point 5 - assuming shooting lanes are clogged...D2 cycles low for F3 retrieval while F2 fills F3's spot to support cycle...F1 moves into high forward position (look familiar? it should 🙂)

Point 6 - ending positions for clarity

Point 7 - we restart the cycle on the weakside..all repeat information

Point 8 - ending spots for clarity

hopelly this was an easy way to see what a standard accepted cycle flow looks like...obviously i didnt go into every scenario here but these are the two most common "patterns' if you will in hockey...now tell me...which strategy in the game resembles this? easy answer..none. i think ive felt NHL 23 do a slightly better job but i think we need an actual strategy revoloving around this cycle that isnt an overload because this isnt an overload nor does the overload in the game play like this. the overload stacks three on the wall and involves give and gos and picks/screens with a backside D cut which really only works in outnumbered scenarios (in theory of course) 

Now tell me that if we had this scripted in the game that we couldnt generate offense? this cycle has an "answer" for everything...it has high and low puck support...it should in theory have body positioning advantages for dead area plays to win races to if in trouble and needing to cycle...it has tip and backdoor options if the defense is tight...and it has a lot of passing options if the defense blunders and is beat. dont think its too much to ask for people to understand this pattern and mvoement to have success in a hockey game...very basic with lots of optioons 

Now onto the defensive side of the zone...i dont want to bore everyone tio death here but D is MAN TO MAN in hockey....the ai cover spots and zones on the ice...cover the MAN. MEN score not SPOTS...lets walk through shall we?

starting spots...Strong side D takes the net front...weakside D takes the high forward...center ALWAYS takes the board...wings take their respective offensive D..easy stuff

low cycle movement - see how everyone stays with their original assingment? stop having the ai "cover" all of the time..stay with your assignment!

landing points after movement for clarity

now lets assume the puck went to the point and the offense is taking their umbrella shape - back to the starting point

Here we go - puck moving to the point...see all of the movements drawn..everyone sticks with their assignment!

Assuming F2 - moves back to get to the backdoor spot after the pass...heres the final ending points for clarity

Now lets go down the pass to D2 option...F3 slides to screen and F2 moves a bit up to be a backdoor option

Now lets do the D2 cycle scenario - check the movement...no covering..no zones...its man-to-man assignments...this is simple stuff

finally the ending points...again..no switching..no zones...the guy you were on at the start of the cycle is your man

to me...this isnt reflected in the gmae right now and it leads to defensive breakdowns happening way too frequently...either the defense is way too quick to cover (nhl 20 and before) or it just stands in zones and does literally nothing no mateer what...cone defense (nhl 21 and beyond) 

now..i know we need the defense to collapse when guys are beat...but i feel like that converstation needs to happen AFTER we get defensive fundamentals sorted out...what is collapsing and staggard and tight point you know? I mean those just need to go...if we want an option for gap tightness thats one thing...but collapsiong ans staggard and tight point like what? what does that even mean you know? its man on man and we should be setting gap defaults not zone vs man...this isnt basketball...no 2-3 zone here haha...its man on man...too many cuts and too much movement to play zone...would lead to way too many gaps in coverage and uncontested shots which should be much more lethal than they are currently...thats why high level hockey pressures shooters so much...need to make it hard on them....

okay so forechecking...again that strategies mean nothing...what is 1-2-2 aggressive? what passive? what? weak side lock? thats a 1-2-2...so what? need something more concrete and predictable...should make programming easier too..not as many reads

lets start with the basics and well leave the breakout players off just to make this first point...heres a 1-2-2 on the initial dump in/forecheck opportunity

the most important job is for F1 to turn the play...they need a "hard force" here...either strong or weak...this should be selectable "1-2-2 strong" and "1-2-2 weak" or something like this...lets start with strong...that the easiest...F1 cuts off the back of the net..this FC breaks if the D is able to reverse the play...F1 NEEDS to cut the back of the net off...F3 is angling to cutoff the slot pass option as well as to anticipate challenging the opposing Center who will likely receive the breakout pass

lets add the breakout players in so this makes a little more sense...see how the play is being forced to the strong side? we dont necessarily care that they get the first pass off...we want to ensure the play is contained to the strong half of the ice where we will be even numbers wise at worse while the offensive team continues to run out of time, space, and options...we can challenge the RW if the pass goes there...F1 applying pressure on the RD carrying the puck...F3 will challenge and back pressure the C if the C gets the puck...F3 and D2 in position to pick a cross-ice pass off...F1 also cutting off RD's ability to reverse giving the defense a 5v4 advantage as they've taken the LD out of the play....again...turnovers might happen, might not but weve contained the play to one side...we shouldnt be at risk of a goal against...should hopefully force a dump or a full retreat by the blueline..perfect defense where we have numbers...does this always execute perfectly? no..obviously not...thats where knowing your team and attributes and even human skill comes into play here...but this foundation should exist

A strong-side option with a pinch...more aggressive...pretty much what the current "2-3" should actually look like:

now your 1-2-2 weak...a weakside lock...is where were wanting to push the play to the weakside...shocker right? disclaimer here...theres multiple ways to run a weakside lock...ill show a fairly aggressive version as i feel like in a video game youre wanting to have a variety of FCs with different risk involved...this one will have a D pinch....So F1 needs to sellout to push the play that way...so again...programming this we need to ensure the AI are instructed to angle the carrier not sprint at them.FC breaks if the puck is reversed which is a common theme to any FC strategy...F2s job is to basically cover for the RD...again theres less risky variants where F3 would do the covering and there's no pinch..but i want a variety here for game purposes....so F2 sprints to cover the pinch and overload the breakout side. The reason we do this instead of D1 is ebcause we want a D on defense in the rather likely event of a 2-on-1 happening here after a failed FC. So D1 backs out to cover....F3 is going to cover the Center swing which is hopefully going to encourage a breakout to the LW where D2 will be sprinting to pinch on as soon as the opposing RD gets behind the net...if F3 is slower than their C or if your D2 is slow, probably giving up on odd-man rush here but this again is meant to be a much more aggressive options for times where youre trailing and need a goal.

A less aggressive variant:

Another less aggressive variant with a pinch:

the goal of this exercise is show a few things:

  • Forechecking starts with a force to a side...non negotiable
  • the current options we have are both redundant and rather ineffective as theres no clearl purpose to them
  • Pinching is a FC strategy...not a line strategy. i get "bad pinches" happen IRL but that should be left to human mistakes...if the FC isn't involving a pinch you dont pinch...and with the right FC options in the game you can have the AI turn up the heat by using a FC option with a pinch and humans will start seeing more open breaks if they recognize and beat the AI with that knowledge

So to recap...heres what we should be taking away:

  • IN zone offense and defense needs to be fundamentally revamped - need proper cycle added to offense and proper defense assignments added
  • forechecking options need to be completely revamped to be effective
  • these changes will help both offline and online play...offline play has been broken since NHL 21 and onlibe play is "1v1 me bro" which is not hockey and is painfully boring...knowing the sport should be part of the skillset to be good at a sports game

Ill add breakouts later if this starts a good discussion...the ai need to receive an upgrade soon for this game to ever take a noticeable step

6 Replies

  • Limp_KidzKit's avatar
    Limp_KidzKit
    3 years ago
    @RatedxPGxEnigma wrote:

    You put more effort into strategies in one post than they have in years, hahaha

    appreciate it....jsut want them to see how easily static these strategies can be...i mean i get the ai wont play like humans so why dont we make them a little more static or rigid or whatever and just have them do more sensible things? I mean..isnt that what amdden does when then run plays? the receivers run their plays blindly right? why dont we run our forechecks blindly and have legitimate options rather than whatever the heck 1-2-2 aggressive and 1-2-2 passive is lol...and pinching locked to a line strategy is just no helpful wahtsoever...you cant quickly change it for times you want pressure (goalie pulled or late in regulation) so it just makes literally zero sense...

    probably been a decade since this attempt was tried...it was a cute attempt to somehwat try for advanced strats in hockeya decade ago...but it was incorrect from the start and its badly needing a total revamp now

  • PJ_Bullet's avatar
    PJ_Bullet
    3 years ago

    Dude, u are being way to technical for them. They don’t even know how penalties are called and what is or isn’t a penalty. I swear I am tired of seeing the 600 different ways their ai thinks that u can commit a boarding penalty. If they don’t know the rules, how could they possibly know strategies?

  • Limp_KidzKit's avatar
    Limp_KidzKit
    3 years ago
    @PJ_Bullet wrote:

    Dude, u are being way to technical for them. They don’t even know how penalties are called and what is or isn’t a penalty. I swear I am tired of seeing the 600 different ways their ai thinks that u can commit a boarding penalty. If they don’t know the rules, how could they possibly know strategies?

    man...I thought I went step by step enough to follow hahaha! we just need more movement...this game the ai are so standing still all of the time...move your feet!! then defense...like man to man with some gap...way too many wide open passing options and defensive breakdowns due to nothing but blatantly poor coverage...

    need some hockey in our hockey games!!

  • TTZ_Dipsy's avatar
    TTZ_Dipsy
    Hero+
    3 years ago

    It would be absolutely amazing but I don't need all that fancy stuff, I'm on my hands and knees just begging for simple "Don't dump the puck!!!!", and "Pass to the human rushing towards the blueline instead of lollygagging and purposely going offside" options. Asking too much, I know.

  • SgtSlaughterXXX's avatar
    SgtSlaughterXXX
    2 years ago

    For the most part, you've nailed it on the head.  I even learned some interesting things from this.  But actually, the Overload strategy DOES work this way in EA NHL games.  You can set up the umbrella on a 5v5 very easily by skating it up the boards or passing to D1, begin shifting D1 to the point of the umbrella... and now your passing option is F1 or D2 on either corner of the umbrella.  F2 is literally where you said he would be, F3 is literally screening and looking for deflections, with F2 looking for the cleanup or backdoor one timer\rebound.  But a whole lot of people don't know a very specific secret about Teammate AI and why they suck... you see... most people think that the 'AI Learning' slider has more to do with the other team.  When in fact, it actually affects your teammates playmaking and positioning abilities significantly more.  The real reason the AI actually sucks is because that slider is sometimes reduced on people's game, and if you actually max it out, it's like all of a sudden the AI knows what you want to do on offense, the forecheck, the backcheck, on defense and even on the breakout.  They learn sort of a 'on the go' playbook by seeing where you move around and what positions you make passes and shot attempts from.  But I digress, there are a few reasons why the current offense is passable, maybe not perfect but it works fine.

    The Overload has been my staple offensive strategy for over a year in 5v5.  Behind the Net is actually used a lot in NHL level hockey as well because of the aggressive man on man defense of some teams and perhaps the lack of innovation of some offensive schemes, F1 will skate up the boards to D1, followed by a dump down the boards where F3 will move his butt behind the net for the pickup... the cycle continues from here.  F2 will be a pass\shot option from a sharp angle depending on whether the puck carrier continues up the boards or not (potentially a deflection setup if D1 wrists one at the goalie.  F1 will move to the weakside or look for the tip in, waiting for the next dump down the boards.  Alternatively, you can L2 (vision control) just behind the net to the left or right of the goaltender to signal a teammate to move back there when you need to get out of trouble.

    I am not entirely sure how Behind the Net generates scoring opportunities since sharp angle shots usually don't clear the goalie's shoulder, but they do sometimes with snipers.  My guess is the Shoot\Pass tendency slider is a key factor in how your line uses this setup play.  Also your opponent's aggressiveness\defensive strategy affects whether you can use Gretzky's Office... the stationary behind the net scheme.  At this point, the shoot tendency and pinch slider should be more than welcome.  Because you're so deep in the o-zone your defense WILL pinch if they're set up in the team strategies to do so, it's all preference really.  Tip in's are always an option if shot from the corner of the blue line.  On overload, tip ins work from almost anywhere and even from the point of an Umbrella.  Crash the net, I am not entirely sure I understand since the only position on the ice that I get anything resembling net crashing or setups for deflects is if I am shooting from the corner of the blue line again.  My guess, Crash the Net has more to do with 'Puck Protecting with the A\X button', getting into the slot where the screens are and looking for low rebounds off of the goalie's pads.  Best used with players on checking lines, definitely best used against a weak defensive and forward depth (you will eat alive teams like the Penguins imo).  And usually the 3rd Line CHK should be utilized against the 1st line of a very Offense star power core.  Attribute Effects in sliders should be maxed out, if not... make sure your CHK line is getting the offense time instead of the regular top 6 crew.  You will literally eat them alive, I've made countless clips of me powering my way to rebounds for goals like this.

    The forechecks are also there in the game, I read your version of a weak side lock, and actually this is a real thing in the game too.  It's just, you better be F2\F3 most of the time since your responsibility is much greater than F1 if he is chasing the carrier behind the net.  Defense pinch settings matter a whole lot, aggression\forecheck settings matter too.  In addition, the AI is actually programmed to protect the back check and like more than half of the time... there is no real good reason for the defense to pinch if the opposing team is posing an energetic breakout chance.  The AI in the past (NHL 16 era) would completely screw up and pinch anyways causing a massive breakdown on the backcheck.  EA patched this so the AI won't be that vulnerable to bad coaching settings.  And most importantly, the opposing team usually needs to be tired for this to work without giving up massive stretch passes and breakouts.  So you need to time the aggression on forechecks for the latter half of periods so the other team isn't fresh on their legs.  I usually increase the aggression for all settings, even defense once I know the opponent is tired and weak.  It's best to start a period with either balanced or conservative settings so that your team is maintaining healthy and speedy lines.  Since you can turn the latter half of the period, (even earlier) into an outright onslaught.  And it's usually best to start messing with these settings either on a powerplay, or at around 12:30ish left in a period.  Alternatively, you can increase the slider for Teammate Coaching Strategy Adjustments so that the coach automatically increases and decreases pressure.  But with this, sometimes you might not notice the changes until you give up a goal or something.

    I'm giving out trade secrets here, so if you like what I said, and if it was helpful just let me know.  I hope this information would help out in case you feel bummed out about the AI, and trust me... sometimes I wish their creativity wasn't so crude and simple at times.  But one thing I did notice is that with Powerforwards, you can usually create a very dynamic offense.  So yeah, hope that helped, good luck.

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