Tips for Defending in '23

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@KidShowtime1867 wrote:

When we do swap controls to take the puck carrier, we get met with this:

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Swapping controls isn't always going to result in this. Of course there are going to be times it happens, but in this case, control was swapped early enough that a poke check could have broken this up. There were also other opportunities in that clip to switch control and potentially defend this. Obviously, we all know you're excellent at defense. Your clips and breakdowns have been fantastic and very much appreciated. I'm not trying to say this is a case of play better D. You're also trying to make the point that it's unfair that offense has players that get in to position. Isn't that what the AI D is doing also though? You can't actually shoot or pass until you have the puck. Even a one timer means holding up on the stick before the receiving player makes contact with it. AI defenders are also getting in position so control can be swapped and manual defense can be performed.

Obviously, we can't manually control 5 players individually at once. We need to have AI players, but using them to play defense for you is pretty clearly relying less on personal skill. We get complaints that there's no skill gap and have taken measures to increase that. Returning defensive actions to AI players would go against this. I'm not saying it will never happen. I hope it doesn't or if it does, I hope there's a way to still keep or increase the skill gap from it somehow. We want as much of the game to be user controlled, but in a game where you have 12 players on the ice and 2 humans controlling them, there's going to need to be a hefty amount of automation.

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@EA_Aljo wrote:

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@KidShowtime1867 wrote:

When we do swap controls to take the puck carrier, we get met with this:

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Swapping controls isn't always going to result in this. Of course there are going to be times it happens, but in this case, control was swapped early enough that a poke check could have broken this up. There were also other opportunities in that clip to switch control and potentially defend this. Obviously, we all know you're excellent at defense. Your clips and breakdowns have been fantastic and very much appreciated. I'm not trying to say this is a case of play better D. You're also trying to make the point that it's unfair that offense has players that get in to position. Isn't that what the AI D is doing also though? You can't actually shoot or pass until you have the puck. Even a one timer means holding up on the stick before the receiving player makes contact with it. AI defenders are also getting in position so control can be swapped and manual defense can be performed.

Obviously, we can't manually control 5 players individually at once. We need to have AI players, but using them to play defense for you is pretty clearly relying less on personal skill. We get complaints that there's no skill gap and have taken measures to increase that. Returning defensive actions to AI players would go against this. I'm not saying it will never happen. I hope it doesn't or if it does, I hope there's a way to still keep or increase the skill gap from it somehow. We want as much of the game to be user controlled, but in a game where you have 12 players on the ice and 2 humans controlling them, there's going to need to be a hefty amount of automation.

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Aljo, we all know that player switching is spotty at best as well and I swear to you since the last patch it feels even more off.  Sometimes there's even a delay between when I take control of a player, and when I can move him.  That split second is all it takes.   Also, even using the right stick to select a player often times gives you control of a player in the direction you want but only it's the player behind the play.  Why can't we have icon player switching?

@EA_Aljo

Regarding skill-gap and "Returning defensive actions to AI players would go against this".

Is that really true? Wouldnt that create a skill gap but with more focus on defense?

Imagen how good defense kidshowtime would be able to practice with proper help from the AI.

But the real problem is the succesrate of "the same tired tactic of circling down low", I think the frustration lays in the impossibility to strip the offensive team of the puck.

Its just not fun as the defensive team to observe the puck carrier skate round and round until something mess up and they get that 1 milli second they need to score.

Its always more fun to play with the puck, thats probebly why you barley here people complaint on how tiresome it gets to be able to just circling round and round as the puck carrier, even if it looks nothing like hockey.

But to be the defensive player and endure that type of play game after game is just too much for any normal human mind.

I think thats the biggest reason to why people now turn to the AI asking for some (help) actions to solve this boring offensive play 95% of the people are doing. 

Defense dosent need to be easier, but it has to be more fun.

And if the game should be about more personal skill.. Take out the automatic sauce and one timers in that case, that would really add some spice to the game.

@Sega82mega 

If we returned the ability for AI players to poke, hit and stick lift, it would be easier to let the AI play defense for you. That's why I say without it, the skill gap is higher.

Passes aren't auto-sauced as much as they used to be. In my experience at least. We also don't get near the amount of complaints we used to. I think making one timers full auto would add more frustration than fun. I could see it for WoC and BaP, but in other modes where you control the whole team, I think it would add an unnecessary step. Play in those modes can be very frantic. In many cases you don't have the time to make a pass and then wind up for a one timer. A lot of the cross-crease goals are pucks that are redirected so I don't think you'd need to wind up for those. In that case, holding up, as it is now, would probably be the right control for them. I certainly wouldn't mind it being an option like it was in previous games, but it would also need to be useful. Possibly give you a bonus to accuracy to balance the challenge of timing it.

@EA_Aljo

For me the most important thing is the grade of frustration.

And to know whats coming but still not being able to stop it.. Thats a ton of frustration.

But I havent play anything sence 22 and wont do so untill 24, and something telling me that the level of stress/frustration is probebly going to be better next time I do play.

But thoose clip were nothing happens when people try to play body, (The hit bubble syndrome), thats something I really hope will get a boost/fix.

Cause frankly, if every defensive tool actually start to work better without you having to work so darn hard for it, that could really be what turns everything around.

Without 'you' having to 'buff' the CPU.

Aljo said "We also don't get near the amount of complaints we used to." 

Glad to hear that, must mean we are on track.. Or that people stopped caring... Wich I dont think is the case... 

@EA_Aljo 

I just found this thread. I read your comment about y’all not getting complaints about the current state of the game, so I felt compelled to give you mine.

Skill gap should not take precedence over making a game that functions like a hockey game. Hockey is a team sport. When you reduce 4 of the 5 players on the ice to literal pylons, it stops being a hockey game. This game is basically a glorified obstacle course on ice. 

Skill zoning or “defending the slot” was never an issue. The issue was that shots from dirty areas literally never went in. Deflections were non-existent. Shots from the point were completely unreliable. Thus, someone could literally sit in the slot to cover all short side cheese and cross creases, which were the only reliable, and way too overpowered, ways to score. 

NHL 23 is by far the most infuriating hockey game I’ve ever played. It does not resemble the real life product whatsoever. All NHL 23 does is allow people to exploit cheesy goals far more often, so the most toxic part of this community can call themselves “skilled” because they’ve mastered all the cheese. It’s pathetic.

Thanks for the feedback, @DBacon123 

I hate the cheese as much as anyone else. I really hope we'll see this improved in the future. However, this is a video game and no matter how much we try to avoid ways to play unrealistic hockey, it's probably going to always be an issue. People will look to exploit the game and take advantage of the higher percentage shots.

If only there was some mechanism where the gameplay could be tuned from time to time to reduce the effectiveness of exploits as they become widely abused.

@EA_Aljo

"People will look to exploit the game and take advantage of the higher percentage shots."

Yes like the real life NHL players do too.

They even try to cheat the reff sometimes by exaggerate diffrent situations.

You either win or you loose, thats the name of sport.

Also the reason why people are willing to do anything that it takes, to win.

Even if it mean you have to cheese.

So video game or not, cheese is very much real.

Cheese is not necessarily an excusse for this game to be unrealistic, the key should be to create 'realistic cheese'.

Although im very well aware of what im asking for is no 'walk in the park'.

But, more authentic cheese is just what we need!

any reason why the defenders could have played that way?
how to play defense, sat down with me playing dolls.

versus super star. This is a tournament game (

sorry for the quality. friend's video
How can you play defense if you can't play defense.

@bruanor09 

Can you provide some more details? I'm seeing opportunities to defend. Were they not taking control of their defenders and just letting the AI play for them?

https://clips.twitch.tv/HardLitigiousJamNononoCat-fJmzD6z3LwH7DuvT 

yes. This time I have a replay

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@EA_Aljo  написал (-а):

@bruanor09 

Can you provide some more details? I'm seeing opportunities to defend. Were they not taking control of their defenders and just letting the AI play for them?

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@EA_Aljo  написал (-а):

@bruanor09 

Can you provide some more details? I'm seeing opportunities to defend. Were they not taking control of their defenders and just letting the AI play for them?

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episode 2 in this game

https://clips.twitch.tv/CovertConfidentMoonFeelsBadMan-U_6kBhO-Agog2UsJ 

@bruanor09 

In your first video, this could have been defended. There were multiple opportunities to do so.

In the second clip, I understand what you're saying, but even on the PK, all the defenders aren't going to stack up in front of the net. Again, there were chances to defend this play, but they were not taken advantage of.

https://clips.twitch.tv/DignifiedMildCrabSwiftRage-9ZirwDOXJDohKb0Q 

Hitting bubble video

where is the fifth?

why change when the puck is already in our zone?

Thanks for the clips, @bruanor09 

We're aware of the issue with hitting. It's being investigated.

As far as line changes go, players are changing lines when they're fatigued. If you want to manage your lines better, cover the puck to force a stoppage. This way, you get fresher legs on the ice and will be able to better judge when they'll go for a line change.

@Sega82mega 

There have been a lot of complaints this year. I can understand the frustration. I'm always relaying the constructive feedback to the team. We'll have to see what happens in the future. Regardless of how well received the game is, there's always going to be a toxic part of the community. We have tried to help reduce that with reporting names, but that only goes so far. It's also not exactly easy to punish those exploiting gameplay mechanics. IE: high percentage shots, LT'ing, etc. It's one thing if someone blatantly cheats. Things like win trading for example. We've been known to take action there, but we can't police every game and action those using the game mechanics to their advantage. Especially when it all can be defended. If you don't like someone scoring the same goal over and over again, anticipate what they're going to do and defend it. We all would take advantage of an opponent that is showing a weakness in their defense.

Being a good example is awesome in theory. Many don't see it that way though. It's more fun to win by any means necessary. It's unfortunate for sure, but no matter how good the game is, there will always be that element of the community. 

stick through the legs

penalty shootout, tripping.

but not nothing

right stick to the side = invulnerability

just a stick on an outstretched arm would not allow you to shift the puck to the center.

From this position it is difficult to touch the skates. To prevent him, to slow down, to prevent him from moving the puck to the center.

But stick through the legs. 

penalty shootout, tripping? ОК - it's fair
now - not fair

@bruanor09 

Presentation-wise that was awful to see but it only happened to avoid weird collision problems; if there was a manual attempt to stick check I'm sure *something* would have happened

@bruanor09 

Stickhandling does not make them invulnerable. That defender was beat. They can try to poke check or stick lift, but will probably get a penalty. Had the defender stayed in front of the puck carrier, they would have had more options to defend this play. Regardless, hitting from behind regularly interrupts this play. Obviously, not every time, but I have seen it frequently be successful at breaking up the play.

Indeed, the lack of feedback in the game can lead to a disruption of the user experience and worsen the overall impression of the game. If a player's actions have no consequences, it can create unrealistic and unemotional gameplay situations, which ultimately can diminish interest in the game. Feedback helps players better understand how their actions affect the game world and feel more engaged in the gameplay process.

The absence of consequences for certain actions can become part of the game mechanics that players will use uncontrollably, which requires developers to come up with artificial measures to balance the game mechanics.

slowing down when poking with a stick is the same crutch that plugs the hole in the basic mechanics.

action -> feedback

this is the rule of game design

this rule is violated for both players in this situation. Don't justify it.

stick through stick, arm through hand