I get your points but if defenseman have to play the position then so should forwards too. If you’re going to hold a defender to that same standard then let’s also hold the forward to the standard too. So going forward we need to see forwards play their positions properly as well.
I guess it’s ok to skate out of control as a forward but as a defender you have to skate in control, Angle your guy correctly, etc etc but you can skate straight into someone and still keep the puck. I understand defense is a skill and I understand that this defender could’ve done things better..
BUT what did the forward do to avoid losing the puck as well? Didn’t do puck control, didn’t deke, didn’t move the puck away..
it’s a double standard. And this isn’t me in the video. I take great pride in playing defense well and understand the good d men are sought after.. but at some point you kinda get sick and tired of having to be perfect when the offense can get away with so much. Defense should take skill/smarts/IQ but so should offense.
ok im not that mad I swear. I just don’t understand some of the logic/balance in these games sometimes
@TasteofChicago91 wrote:If you’re going to hold a defender to that same standard then let’s also hold the forward to the standard too. So going forward we need to see forwards play their positions properly as well.
Forwards do have to play their positions. I don't understand this idea that people carrying the puck have carte blanche over all areas of the ice. If that's your experience, then you're just not utilizing the defensive mechanics at your disposal in an effective way.
Defence will always be more difficult than offense. That's the nature of the sport. Defence requires constant attention to detail of where everyone is. Knowing when to be agressive and when not to be. As evidenced in the video in this thread, you're going to pay big prices for defensive failures. That's the way it is in real hockey as well and I don't understand why people think EA's game should deviate from that reality just to give some feeling of 'balance' to people who just aren't good at the other half of the game (defending).
@TasteofChicago91 wrote:I guess it’s ok to skate out of control as a forward but as a defender you have to skate in control, Angle your guy correctly, etc etc but you can skate straight into someone and still keep the puck.
It's NOT okay to skate out of control as a puck carrier/forward. It effects your pass accuracy, agility, shot accuracy/power, etc. As evidenced in the clip posted here, the forward is skating at full speed and loses the puck on the poke check. But because the defender made a terrible play (skating OUT of the D-Zone, directly at a puck carrier while bursting with speed and holding DSS) and the puck maintained its trajectory after being dislodged, the forward skating in the direction of the puck came out on top.
Again, had the defender maintained proper positioning and angled the player off to the boards and/or utilized a body check rather than just skating directly at the puck carrier and hitting poke check, we wouldn't even be discussing this.
@TasteofChicago91 wrote:BUT what did the forward do to avoid losing the puck as well? Didn’t do puck control, didn’t deke, didn’t move the puck away..
Because of the major failure of the defender, the puck carrier simply needed to take a slight step to their right - they avoided contact with the defender who was wildly out of position, and was able to maintain their direction of skating to obtain the puck that was knocked loose.
@TasteofChicago91 wrote:it’s a double standard. And this isn’t me in the video. I take great pride in playing defense well and understand the good d men are sought after.. but at some point you kinda get sick and tired of having to be perfect when the offense can get away with so much. Defense should take skill/smarts/IQ but so should offense.
You're absolutely right. However, the play in the clip made by the defender was a massive mistake. You can't skate directly at a puck carrier (who has 2-3 available pass options) while hitting poke check/DSS and expect the outcome to be in your favor. Chances are, this aggressive style of defending has worked for you before and you expect it to work out that way every time, but I'm telling you - you'll be far more effective defensively by not skating directly at the puck carrier. Let them come to you and force them to make a move.
You may think skating right at a puck carrer with a poke check would 'force' them to make evasive moves, but that just makes it easier on the puck carrier.
@KidShowtime18670 XP on every comment you post trying to defend these unrealistic looking sequences and still clearly missing the big picture?
You're the only one (or one of the very few) who believes it's fun and realistic to skate and pass through people and to get rewarded offensively for playing in the most basic and dumb, straightforward way possible. Everyone else seems to agree that we'd like an actual HOCKEY videogame, with balance and basic defensive tools that actually work.
I have full confidence in EA that they'll patch this game into something that makes sense. Those who like this crap so much, should probably go rack up the wins forcing passes and hustling in straight line and enjoy it while it lasts instead of wasting time here. Most likely, soon theyll have to go back to 3s Eliminator where the experience they're after belongs.
@couture2fat2fly wrote:@KidShowtime18670 XP on every comment you post trying to defend these unrealistic looking sequences and still clearly missing the big picture?
Luckily for me, I don't put too much value in how many 'Xp' my posts get. You have to understand most people (not all) come here to cope and rage after something in the game doesn't go their way. When these people post gifs/videos showing things playing out that don't exactly match up with the story they're telling, I'm gonna call it out. People don't like it. Aw well. That's too bad. I'll continue having fun, finding small successes here and there and sharing my knowledge here with those who are willing to listen.
I understand people don't like it but it is what it is.
@couture2fat2fly wrote:
You're the only one (or one of the very few) who believes it's fun and realistic to skate and pass through people and to get rewarded offensively for playing in the most basic and dumb, straightforward way possible. Everyone else seems to agree that we'd like an actual HOCKEY videogame, with balance and basic defensive tools that actually work.
I don't think this at all and the defensive tools do work, if you use them correctly 😉
@couture2fat2fly wrote:
I have full confidence in EA that they'll patch this game into something that makes sense. Those who like this crap so much, should probably go rack up the wins forcing passes and hustling in straight line and enjoy it while it lasts instead of wasting time here. Most likely, soon theyll have to go back to 3s Eliminator where the experience they're after belongs.
The defender in this clip was hustling in a straight line mashing poke check. They knocked the puck loose, but obviously they simply expected to obtain possession, forgetting the puck retains its trajectory. It was a bad defensive play. End of story.
@KidShowtime1867 wrote:
@TasteofChicago91 wrote:If you’re going to hold a defender to that same standard then let’s also hold the forward to the standard too. So going forward we need to see forwards play their positions properly as well.
Forwards do have to play their positions. I don't understand this idea that people carrying the puck have carte blanche over all areas of the ice. If that's your experience, then you're just not utilizing the defensive mechanics at your disposal in an effective way.
Defence will always be more difficult than offense. That's the nature of the sport. Defence requires constant attention to detail of where everyone is. Knowing when to be agressive and when not to be. As evidenced in the video in this thread, you're going to pay big prices for defensive failures. That's the way it is in real hockey as well and I don't understand why people think EA's game should deviate from that reality just to give some feeling of 'balance' to people who just aren't good at the other half of the game (defending).
sprinting with one hand on your stick straight into a defender then getting bailed out due to the fact that the poke was only 99% accurate and the fact that incidental contact just doesn't exist online is not a skilled play.
If you were to go to even a high school level practice and did 1v1's with forwards vs defenders, defenders would win at least 80-90% of the time. 1v1 play on a rush is so much easier on the defender than the forward, so no, this is not like real life and there's no artificial balancing here. what "deviation" are you referring to? what high level games are you seeing rushes where the offense has it naturally easier than the defense on? please link, id love to watch.
anyway, theres a reason the NHL moves the puck the way they do, its not because 1v1 is super offensive-favored scenario....they move the puck like a pinball machine because puck movement combined with quick shots is a much easier way to breakdown the defense and get them chasing than 1v1 scenarios.
theres obviously a huge skill gap netween good and bad defenders, but the majority of that comes down to edgework and skating. If youd ask any defenseman in the league to take a straight-up rush on anyone in the league, they'll have good success assuming theres no passing options and the only thign theyh have to do is stop their mark...thats rather routine for even 7th defensemen in the show. Not saying theyll never get beat, but id put money theyre not getting cooked on a 1v1 much more often than even a Mcdavid-level player can make a highlight deke around them...
but again, hockey is so contextual that its really hard to compare glass-box scenarios with any game scenarios...ihave been around the game long enough though to know that simply mirrioring a single forward on a rush with the goal of "dont get walekd" would be a rather mundane task.
so yeah, dont agree in the slightest the offense is easier than defense. its the attackers job to use deception, speed, and skill to make the defender bite...thje defender just needs to not get caught flat footed and stay on their mark.
so back to the video game - where did the offesnive player do anything right in this clip? defensive player at least did something...offensive guy clicked LS down into a space occupied by a defender and got rewarded with a clean nutmeg beat....im seeing artifical balance here but its certainly not favoring defense...
@Limp_KidzKit
Don't worry, there are people who just want to make themselves important here, but have no basic knowledge of hockey. Ignore them !
@Froommey wrote:@Limp_KidzKit
Don't worry, there are people who just want to make themselves important here, but have no basic knowledge of hockey. Ignore them !
I diont want to get into any sort of drama, i just bring a real-world perspective to the sport rather than a virtual perspective to the sport and i think its a good balance for discussion.
I dont think these boards work without both being present - we need civil disagreement and differences of perspectives and opinions present to truly provide actionable feedbakc to the game.
its why i express my opinion on breaking down the sports to its most fundamental showdown between offesne and defense which is a 1v1...i think we as a community need to present arguments and come to a conclusion here before we can balance everything else. if we dont have a balanced 1v1 scenario then how can we properly balance the success rates of passes and shots? the 1v1 balance should provide us with the proper base and balancing for general game speed, general acceleration levels, general back skating levels, general agility levels, and general puck control/pickup tuning. once those are all in a spot that we can agree on, then it makes balancing pass sped, shot speed, goalie reactons, goalie movemnt speed, pass receptions, bouncing puck receptions, etc all that much easier.
we always get caught up trying to balance the game via outcomes in a 5v5 scenario where we have too many bandaids in place already that lose sight of what really needs fundamental balancing. puck interceptions are too high, well thats because puck skater agility is way too high and pass accuracy is way too high and puck speeds are way too high, but we just nerf DSS speed and poke speed and make checking harder because 6s play a 0-5 trap out of necessity and screens dont matter and beating goalies on first shots with good shooters from good areas is too hard, and now we end up with all of these bandaids and no real change right?
we need to break this down into 1v1 play. we need to discuss this and its paramount to moving onto other aspects of the game. theres a path here to a more manual defense and more ice space and more dynamic play but it starts with getting the fundamental aspects locked in. we keep ignroing that to talk about pass interceptions or something...were wmissing the point as a community!
@Jammalammalam wrote:
@Limp_KidzKitI can appreciate someone trying to break down my clips and play and try to "school" me on what I should've done and what happened is "okay."
There seems to be one other dude in these forums that consistently posts 6v6 clips of all the bull that he's experienced. I've played this game long enough, have been on a team that's been Top 10 in stats and standings for years (and I can back that up 100%) where we played over 800 6v6 games together last year, so I think I have an idea of what being rewarded for my defense and when I screw up on my defense feels like.
This might sound high and mighty (And I could care less), but if you don't play the amount of 6v6 games as I do, have comparable stats than I do, post and give examples playing the same game modes that I do... then why do you really want me to put that much stake into what you're trying to school me on?
I haven't tried to school you on anything, my friend. I've been on the "pro defense" side of this discussion since the start. Although, I think you might be using "you" in a general sense so i am not taking offence to it either way. Also, even if you were directly responding, its a valid point. The meta of video games and IRL sports is drastically different based on the level of competition you're facing.
on an off note, I have played and placed top-3 in the LG pro series back in the day and the early days of the "ESHL" so I do have successful experiences in both competitive IRL hockey and virtual hockey...although I find myself advocating much more from the IRL perspective as theres many things we can take from the natural balance of IRL hockey and apply to these video games to make for a more dynamic experience.
Happy to have you in the discussions here!
@Limp_KidzKit wrote:
@Froommey wrote:@Limp_KidzKit
Don't worry, there are people who just want to make themselves important here, but have no basic knowledge of hockey. Ignore them !I diont want to get into any sort of drama, i just bring a real-world perspective to the sport rather than a virtual perspective to the sport and i think its a good balance for discussion.
I dont think these boards work without both being present - we need civil disagreement and differences of perspectives and opinions present to truly provide actionable feedbakc to the game.
its why i express my opinion on breaking down the sports to its most fundamental showdown between offesne and defense which is a 1v1...i think we as a community need to present arguments and come to a conclusion here before we can balance everything else. if we dont have a balanced 1v1 scenario then how can we properly balance the success rates of passes and shots? the 1v1 balance should provide us with the proper base and balancing for general game speed, general acceleration levels, general back skating levels, general agility levels, and general puck control/pickup tuning. once those are all in a spot that we can agree on, then it makes balancing pass sped, shot speed, goalie reactons, goalie movemnt speed, pass receptions, bouncing puck receptions, etc all that much easier.
we always get caught up trying to balance the game via outcomes in a 5v5 scenario where we have too many bandaids in place already that lose sight of what really needs fundamental balancing. puck interceptions are too high, well thats because puck skater agility is way too high and pass accuracy is way too high and puck speeds are way too high, but we just nerf DSS speed and poke speed and make checking harder because 6s play a 0-5 trap out of necessity and screens dont matter and beating goalies on first shots with good shooters from good areas is too hard, and now we end up with all of these bandaids and no real change right?
we need to break this down into 1v1 play. we need to discuss this and its paramount to moving onto other aspects of the game. theres a path here to a more manual defense and more ice space and more dynamic play but it starts with getting the fundamental aspects locked in. we keep ignroing that to talk about pass interceptions or something...were wmissing the point as a community!
Bolded what's wrong with the decision making and you absolutely nailed it.
