@Jammalammalam wrote:Are we back to offense-defending here again?
It's funny that skill gap keeps coming up. Is there really skill In the example I gave, because it's so common for players to skate as fast as they can in a single straight line and the chances they regain the puck and/or the physics simply working in favor of giving the rushing team the puck back?
I don’t know if that part of the post was directed at me ? Because I was the last one to comment on the clip ? Anyway, I’ve clearly said that the attacking player was clueless…
ATTACKING PLAYER: Played that very poorly. How can you speed down the wing like this near the board, going in a traffic area, without:
- Protecting the puck.
- Passing before getting hammered or stripped out.
- Dumping the puck in.
He looked clueless TBH !
Again, maybe I’m not the best guy to comment on ONLINE 6's or whatever mode, cause I never play online, but that was a bad hockey play nonetheless.
@KlariskraysNHL wrote:
@PernellKarl027I've almost given up giving my 2 cents on the play. If it isn't what they want to hear they just get angry. I try my best to explain why things happened because of how the game actually works and not how real life works because we're playing the video game and it is what it is.
Yes some things at times don't make good sense and you just have to say it's RNG at its finest.
Cause to me that video. You should be checking if you are lined up like that. If you were trying to play the puck you'd have been better off angling them towards the boards and squeezing them out of the play and poking.
I think its healthy to remember that disagreements arent necessarily "anger" here. I think a play like this, one where neither side of the puck can honestly say they played right (again, I think the defense has more of a case if we had to pick a "winner" of skill, play reading, wahtever you want to call it) is being amplified by the general reward/feeback loop of the game that sees perfection required by defenders for a positive play whereas offensive players can do 0% of a play right and have success.
Again, this is why I keep aying we need to balance this game from a 1v1 perspective (like 1 on 1, no other players...so not HUT, hnot VS, but open sakte 1v1) when it comes to speed, acceleration, agility, puck control puck pickups, incidiental contact, checking, etc because the imbalances there lead to bandaids elsewhere which lead to drastically different perceptions and experiences when playing this game.
at the end of the day, the offense did literally nothing right and recieved a reward. Chalk it up to a bad bounce in this parituclar scenario, but similar plays/scenarios where defensemen are doing things 80-90% properly are still not seeing mostly positive results which leads to these huge community divides.
We also again have game speed and passing speed and pass receptions at a place where defenders are basically being asked to sit back, be passive, and do literally nothing unless the 100% perfect scneario presents itself for you to actually take an active role in the play which is so boring and lame and unskilled. And because we ask our D to be super passive and disengaged essentially, we can only expect for those same D to ask that if they do make 80-90% correct decisions that they be rewarded properly since anything below that is a sure goal/penalty.
It's not a healthy nor rewarding nor skillful balance right now and hasnt been for years. its years of frustration, its years of being told "perfect or expect a goal" while their forward counterparts are mashing LS, holding RT for 10 seconds while spinning around with LT and RS engaged and making 800 mph backhand passes whenever they feel like. This is not balance and it needs to change.
@KlariskraysNHL wrote:
@Limp_KidzKitI've always said offense must reign supreme over defense. I've said it for years upon years because that is what the average consumer wants. They want to feel like the superstar that comes in clutch with goals. Defense is always gonna be harder but when you can play a solid defensive game you can make life hell for even some of the best offenses.
We also tend to look for the bad things more than looking for the good that go our way also. There is always things we can do to better ourselves in positions but sadly at times we don't see it til it is too late.
This year I actually feel lucky when I make a good play and it actually works out.
That's how nerfed I feel defense is this year.
When I get an interception for being in the lane I feel giddy. When I poke the puck off of a defender who is overhandinling it at the blue line and blatantly exposing it I get joy when I poke and it actually connects with the puck and it goes out of the zone.
It also saddens me when I have poor offense and I still end up somehow scoring a goal because the game just allowed it to happen knowing the defender actually made a good play. So often this year and more than most years I go, "I'll take it I guess!”
@KlariskraysNHL wrote:
@Limp_KidzKitI've always said offense must reign supreme over defense. I've said it for years upon years because that is what the average consumer wants. They want to feel like the superstar that comes in clutch with goals. Defense is always gonna be harder but when you can play a solid defensive game you can make life hell for even some of the best offenses.
We also tend to look for the bad things more than looking for the good that go our way also. There is always things we can do to better ourselves in positions but sadly at times we don't see it til it is too late.
My idea of "balancing" would actually see more "home base" shots beating goalies. It would see more 1st shot goals from elite shooters. imo...theres plenty of ways to make getting a high danger shot off harder while simultaneously rewarding it more.
this idea would revolve around defensive intercceptions becoming lesser with the DSS and shoves and low speed hitting getting major buffs or retunred to their previous state (DSS).
Offense should be overpowered if the defense is going to be passive, lose gaps, not back check, etc...but on the contrary, if the defense is applying pressure and playing sound position, the offesne is going to have to either simplify their game or find more creative cuts, passes, chips, etc to find space.
thats real hockey and real hockey is fun. it does not require us to have a bunch of loose pucks and bobbled passes in theory, it just requires puck carrier sakting and general speed/agility/acceleration to be tuned to more believable settings. this should naturally lead to more time and space if the defense isn't playing proper gaps and marking their assignments correctly which would in turn make offense more fun and rewardign as dekes would be more effective than they currently are.
win-win in my books...current tuners are boring for all involved that leave many wanting more
@Limp_KidzKit wrote:
@KlariskraysNHL wrote:
@Limp_KidzKitI've always said offense must reign supreme over defense. I've said it for years upon years because that is what the average consumer wants. They want to feel like the superstar that comes in clutch with goals. Defense is always gonna be harder but when you can play a solid defensive game you can make life hell for even some of the best offenses.
We also tend to look for the bad things more than looking for the good that go our way also. There is always things we can do to better ourselves in positions but sadly at times we don't see it til it is too late.My idea of "balancing" would actually see more "home base" shots beating goalies. It would see more 1st shot goals from elite shooters. imo...theres plenty of ways to make getting a high danger shot off harder while simultaneously rewarding it more.
I might make a separate post about this, but this has been something I have been thinking about for a while. With all these prominent shooters now who regularly beat goalies on shots like this - Matthews, Bedard, etc., maybe it is time for a "shot stick" type mechanic to make shooting more fun and skill based. I watch the condensed games in the mornings and it seems like more and more guys are beating goalies with clean shots from high danger areas. If more of these went in in NHL 24, we would need less Harlem Globetrotters on ice goals.
I'll think about the specifics but some "joystick jockeying" involving timing or stick movement that brings more user skill into the equation of beating goalies with shots rather than just pressing up on the right stick and top corner on the left stick and letting the attributes decide what happens, which is boring and stale. I haven't played a ton of NBA 2K but it feels good to get a "green release" and hit a shot, it's time for something like this in NHL.
@couture2fat2flyThis is my thoughts exactly. What I take issue with is people telling me I'm "wrong" for doing "X" play and you have no idea the context of the game, the type of opponents I'm playing against, and what's going on across the entire ice in the clip's span of 40 seconds with one angle.
Again, if you have more wins than I have, play the same game modes as much as I do, have a better +/- and your 6's team is better than mine, by all means tell me exactly what you'd do and what I did wrong because I can certainly learn from you, otherwise I don't want to hear why you think I made the wrong decision. What I'm trying to bring up is why I'm getting punished for a player skating right at me and neither the poke nor my body right in front of him is any deterrence for him skating right at me as fast as he possibly can.
However, the problem we run into here on the forums is that you have HUT players telling people mechanics like Hip-Check is fine and dandy, but in 6's it's being abused so much that EA seems like they're planning to do something about it. Then there's people saying that we should break down plays on a 1v1 basis. Why should we break down plays on a 1v1 basis and limit the lens to just two players in a 6's game?? News flash. The reason I didn't clobber some guy on the blue line with a hit in a 1v1 situation on most occasions is because there's two other guys right behind or right next to him that are just going to pick the puck up after the hit while I take myself out of the play.
@Jagavekov wrote:
@Limp_KidzKit wrote:
@KlariskraysNHL wrote:
@Limp_KidzKitI've always said offense must reign supreme over defense. I've said it for years upon years because that is what the average consumer wants. They want to feel like the superstar that comes in clutch with goals. Defense is always gonna be harder but when you can play a solid defensive game you can make life hell for even some of the best offenses.
We also tend to look for the bad things more than looking for the good that go our way also. There is always things we can do to better ourselves in positions but sadly at times we don't see it til it is too late.My idea of "balancing" would actually see more "home base" shots beating goalies. It would see more 1st shot goals from elite shooters. imo...theres plenty of ways to make getting a high danger shot off harder while simultaneously rewarding it more.
I might make a separate post about this, but this has been something I have been thinking about for a while. With all these prominent shooters now who regularly beat goalies on shots like this - Matthews, Bedard, etc., maybe it is time for a "shot stick" type mechanic to make shooting more fun and skill based. I watch the condensed games in the mornings and it seems like more and more guys are beating goalies with clean shots from high danger areas. If more of these went in in NHL 24, we would need less Harlem Globetrotters on ice goals.
I'll think about the specifics but some "joystick jockeying" involving timing or stick movement that brings more user skill into the equation of beating goalies with shots rather than just pressing up on the right stick and top corner on the left stick and letting the attributes decide what happens, which is boring and stale. I haven't played a ton of NBA 2K but it feels good to get a "green release" and hit a shot, it's time for something like this in NHL.
One thing I want to note is if you watch the esports and paid tourneys for this game they never score directly off a shot from a good area. Has to be a one-timer or a deke on net.
They literally refuse to shoot the puck 1 on 1 from high slot because they know it isn't going in, despite goalies playing on their goal lines the whole game.
In your last few posts you seem to be a bit high on your horse here…. If people don’t play high level 6's, or don’t have a better record than you, then they don’t know how to play hockey ? Or give their insight on a certain play ?
Would be nice if you post clips a bit longer than 2 seconds 😉 Would maybe give a better understanding of what is the issue your having.
@PernellKarl027You don't need more than 2 seconds to realize what's happening.
Clip 1: D anticipates the pass and it goes right by him for no other reason. Trying to fight for the puck as a D in the D-zone is insane. Even anticipating passes rarely yields results. Not even going to comment on one player challenging goalie and three other players only to take a crappy shot and the rebound seems to go exactly to... surprise.
https://runawaylegatus.com/majjama/roleplay/Furc/intercept2.mp4 - Here's a clip of me (Right D @ 10 secs in) trying to intercept a pass right at the beginning. I'm literally positioned to intercept, if anything, I should've disrupted the play, but it ends up as a perfect reception anyway. Then at 35 secs the opponent passes through my forward and I double back to intercept or break up the pass (again). If you freeze frame at 35 you can see the puck goes through my stick for another perfect reception. It's not hyperbole to say that this happens the vast majority of the time.
Clip 2, 3: Do you even have to ask what's the issue here with players literally pressed up against each other, the clipping through the stick, and the offensive player auto-regains the puck as the D keeps getting taken out of the play.
Clip 4: Just like in one of the examples that I posted myself, the majority of pokes go opposite of where you're poking. Not back the other way, not to the side, not bobbling, but directly behind you. When that happens, the poke slows you down. Then you can't pivot fast enough because that got nerfed games ago. Now all we have is players skating as fast as they can into the D and being rewarded for it. In NHL 22 (23 to a lesser extent), I could time my pokes perfectly to go back the other way when they hit. Case in point, the physics were better in past games, but what's new.
So yeah, PK, if you need longer clips to see what the issue is here, how're you going to help me or any other person that's concerned with the defensive side of the game?
@Jammalammalam wrote:https://runawaylegatus.com/majjama/roleplay/Furc/intercept2.mp4 - Here's a clip of me (Right D @ 10 secs in) trying to intercept a pass right at the beginning. I'm literally positioned to intercept
No you're not. You skate right into the puck carrier mashing poke check.. again:
Attacking the puck carrier was the right move, but once again you're mashing poke check and expecting to come out with an interception when this was a perfect time for an open ice hit.
Hitting poke check will negate a chance of interception during those frames. That's how real hockey works. If you've got one hand on the stick and you're just thrusting it randomly in the hopes you'll disrupt the puck - a well placed pass will go right through you. As it should.
@couture2fat2fly wrote:
@JammalammalamKeep in mind that the biggest challenges for bad players have always been to not skate into people and lose the puck and to find the open passes.
This year the game was made to suit and reward their style so of course there are going to be a bunch of happy players. By and large however, the competitive community is pretty sick with the current gameplay.
https://youtu.be/8ntB4R9Zq78?si=ZI-Iy0IbjVAuWo38
https://youtu.be/GZtN4eMBNnk?si=qopZ3S_qBPTVwCBz
https://youtu.be/1VFQzkzoAfc?si=DFzjoDPM8VXRITEf
https://youtu.be/lSY2a9ftv0w?si=NZY8htI6MbnMaq3B
once again, you skate directly at the puck carrier hitting poke check and you get caught
Here is you should defend that:
In this video, teal should've used body check. Instead, hits DSS, decides not to and then mashes poke check again.
what's funny about this is that if teal ended up with the puck here after mashing and blindly poke checking, you'd likely have no issue with how it turned out.
@KlariskraysNHL wrote:
@PernellKarl027I've almost given up giving my 2 cents on the play. If it isn't what they want to hear they just get angry. I try my best to explain why things happened because of how the game actually works and not how real life works because we're playing the video game and it is what it is.
Yes some things at times don't make good sense and you just have to say it's RNG at its finest.
Cause to me that video. You should be checking if you are lined up like that. If you were trying to play the puck you'd have been better off angling them towards the boards and squeezing them out of the play and poking.
Bang on. Well said.
@Jagavekov wrote:
@Limp_KidzKit wrote:
@KlariskraysNHL wrote:
@Limp_KidzKitI've always said offense must reign supreme over defense. I've said it for years upon years because that is what the average consumer wants. They want to feel like the superstar that comes in clutch with goals. Defense is always gonna be harder but when you can play a solid defensive game you can make life hell for even some of the best offenses.
We also tend to look for the bad things more than looking for the good that go our way also. There is always things we can do to better ourselves in positions but sadly at times we don't see it til it is too late.My idea of "balancing" would actually see more "home base" shots beating goalies. It would see more 1st shot goals from elite shooters. imo...theres plenty of ways to make getting a high danger shot off harder while simultaneously rewarding it more.
I might make a separate post about this, but this has been something I have been thinking about for a while. With all these prominent shooters now who regularly beat goalies on shots like this - Matthews, Bedard, etc., maybe it is time for a "shot stick" type mechanic to make shooting more fun and skill based. I watch the condensed games in the mornings and it seems like more and more guys are beating goalies with clean shots from high danger areas. If more of these went in in NHL 24, we would need less Harlem Globetrotters on ice goals.
I'll think about the specifics but some "joystick jockeying" involving timing or stick movement that brings more user skill into the equation of beating goalies with shots rather than just pressing up on the right stick and top corner on the left stick and letting the attributes decide what happens, which is boring and stale. I haven't played a ton of NBA 2K but it feels good to get a "green release" and hit a shot, it's time for something like this in NHL.
Yup, something akin to the swing mechanic in today's golf games. Force the shooter to make clean movements on the shot stick for accurate shots.
I agree.
I play mostly CHEL on now days. Here are some new problems:
HIP CHECKS
This game is hip checks after hip checks. That was somehow difficult to do before but now with total controls you can do it by pressing one button. Its too easy to do and its too effective. Everybody is spamming that all the time. A Hit barely hits you and you always fall down. Sometimes you even get boost when you press square and you can hit a player from behind. Ridicilous. EA also should change those dekes what you can do with total controls.
MOMENTUM
This is not working. Time should be longer. Its not makes sense that opponent have a puck like 25 seconds and then you lost all your endurance. You cant even skate. Your player is so tired. If you have a penalty and you get out of the box you still dont have any endurance. You just doesnt have speed.
BATTLES IN THE FRONT OF THE NET
Everyone knows that there has been delay (YEARS) when you press right stick up (shot). You can get penalties if you cant get the puck when you try to shot onetimer.
For some reason, EA does not want to fix this delay.
Well now its even more "fun" than before. Same thing. You get penalties really easily in front of the net if you are attacking but now defending team can push / hit opponent players as much as they want and doesnt matter if they dont have puck. No penalties. Never.
Now i have to ask that does EA have people who testing this game before release?
This is unbelievable how you "developing" this hockey game year after a year. I would like to know how much customers you have lost in these years. NHL game will probably not sell very well because you are not investing in it at all. You create hundreds of HUT cards, mascots and other not so important things rather than develop the game itself.
Money talks. Yes we can see that.
Lets hope that some other company create NHL game in the near future.
If we can get some kind of competition to the market then maybe EA would start developing more of this game and start fixing those problems what we have.
@KidShowtime1867There was no manual poke here. This is one of several auto-animations you get when puck is in flight and your guy wants to intercept or disrupt. What exasperates this is that I get within stick/arm glitch territory because I'm too close or even in his stick. Even if there was a manual poke here, the issue is that in past games, there would be a loss of puck possession. Enough that players needed to skate for the puck. Since 23, the auto-animation to reached for pucks (a lot of the time, through sticks and bodies) seems to have been dialed up to where you can clip through sticks and the player with the puck regains possession. This is because pokes have become so weak that they are simply nudged off sticks for a half-second and auto-picked back up. Even if you are backing up in defend mode and don't "blind mash poke", good players know exactly when to use RS and not just a blue line deke and LS (in your example). I can almost forgive that scenario if I'm being too passive with every zone entry, but again, playing GOOD teams you have to be aggressive.
@Jammalammalam wrote:@KidShowtime1867There was no manual poke here.
If we're going to have an honest discussion about what can and can't be done to improve defence, it's imperative that you be honest about what plays out in the clips you're providing.
This is not an auto-animation. This is a poke check and/or DSS being initiated at the exact time you are about to make contact/intercept the puck.
@Jammalammalam wrote:@PernellKarl027You don't need more than 2 seconds to realize what's happening.
So yeah, PK, if you need longer clips to see what the issue is here, how're you going to help me or any other person that's concerned with the defensive side of the game?
The only clip that I commented on was the clip that was along the board, and said it was a bad play on the attacking front and on the D side. I’m not here to defend the game mechanics offense vs defense. I believe that the speed and animations and the slider setup ONLINE is ridiculous to start with. So that plays a big part as to where hockey plays like these don’t and never will feel right.
It all brings me back to threads and posts I made about making the game play like REAL HOCKEY first and foremost and all the rest will fall into place. Online hockey will be in a HAPPY place and it would take REAL hockey plays for your team to win, instead of only looking for Metas, glitches and whatnot…
And that would also bring me online looking to play with you guys 😉
@PernellKarl027 wrote: Online hockey will be in a HAPPY place and it would take REAL hockey plays for your team to win, instead of only looking for Metas, glitches and whatnot…
Outside of HUT and a few animation bugs, online hockey is in a good place. I use real defensive / offensive tactics all the time and find successes here and there. I also fail a lot. I get in a mood and rush players, I go for big hits when I shouldn't, I get caught mashing poke check while chasing players.. and they use real hockey plays like passing, dumping, using their agility versus my player bursting with speed to burn me.
Do I see top-ranked players trying the same move (get to the slot and shoot top corner)? Yup.
Do I adjust my defensive to collapse and protect the net? Yup.
Does it work when I'm not chasing the puck carrier and frantically swapping control of players and pulling them out of position? Mostly, yup.
Do I blame EA and claim they don't test their game, don't know hockey, don't put any effort, etc when I get an outcome I don't necessarily agree with? No. That's for the players who demand they be dominant within mere weeks of the release and lay the failure and lack of said dominance at the feet of a company just trying to make a fun hockey game for a spectrum of consumers that is vast and always changing. ( i get that offline guys have a whole slew of other complaints, but I'm not an offline guy and these comments are directed at online players)
You watch any streamer.. like go right now to twitch.tv and search NHL 24. Watch a streamer for 10-15 minutes. I guarantee you that when they get scored on at any point, they will say something to the effect of "COME ON EA MAKE A REAL HOCKEY GAME" or "What a trash game that's ridiculous, EA test your game"... etc etc.
Sure, there may be times when something odd happens that can be attributed to a development glitch but more often than not, it's a defensive failure and an unwillingness to admit they got caught, lapsed, and gave up a good chance.
@KidShowtime1867here comes this year's target audience! 🤔
In what world would that be a perfect reception in real life?
