NHL 20 Feedback Discussion

@TTZ_Dipsy 

3. As long as you're throwing the kitchen sink with good aim, you should be rewarded 😉 Seriously though, nothing is forcing your shots wide or to hit the post. Nothing adds some extra English on to your passes forcing them to be turned over. I get how it seems like the game might be out to get you, but it's simply not true.

4. The idea behind DSS is that it's more controlled. You're not poking wildly at the poke. You're controlling your stick so it's more forgiving. It's also not as forceful a jab as a regular poke. You're angling your stick and trying to sweet the puck away or just direct the carrier out of danger. Pushing on their leg with the stick isn't as jarring as a sudden poke. It's still quite easy to cause trips with DSS, but it is meant to be more forgiving due to the reasons I stated.

8. Absolutely. Just like good plays can have a devastating impact, but I bet you don't congratulate the AI when they do something good. However, you're quick to call them out when they're bad. We all do it so I definitely understand this.

13. I've also seen plenty of times where they get rid of it quickly when they have a good pass. It just depends on the situation. A lot of times they're the only one in the corner and, like you said, get smothered. They don't have a lot of options then. Regardless, it's not a Bermuda Triangle where bad defensive plays are forced to happen.

14. You should try incorporating the dump into your play. My own team does it and it works out well. I call it out, winger goes to the corner, the other forwards get open to receive a quick pass. That's communication and chemistry, but it's also easier to do with more humans than AI.

"22." Gotcha. It's certainly possible an earlier pass could have changed things. Going to the LW quicker possibly could have generated a different outcome. Maybe not though. They did a good job of cutting off their options. Regardless, I agree it kinda took too long to get that pass off.

33. I guess it depends. If you're coaching a guy that reliably makes good passes, it's not something they'd probably get too stressed over. If it's a guy that is kinda known for making risky passes that don't pay off, they probably deserve to be told to watch those passes as they are known to frequently be turned over.

I get that. You want to see new stuff each time and are let down when you don't. That's understandable.

@EA_Aljo 

3. Some of the instances I'm talking about don't really have much to do with shot aim. My slappers I was taking? Hit the post in that clip but score a good 80% of the time, cross cheesers are basically an 80% chance as well, if not better, weaker teams who rely on the right side rebounders do so because they are insanely predictable and easy to count on - when all of these, in addition to snipes and one-hand tucks etc. etc. make up almost all your 50 shots in a game and their goalie is somehow the test-tube love child of Plante, Roy, and Brodeur stopping everything while they just flub it from the blue line to score on your goalie (making horrible moves that take years of your life from stress), and win it leaves you baffled. I'm not a religious man but until those wrenching losses cease, we'll forever be afraid of the great tilter in the sky we somehow so furiously angered. (and to reaffirm, I'm just joking here and do believe you when you say it doesn't exist).

I can't speak for other teams but when mine has to rely on just "take any shot you can", it's most likely gonna end up a -30CR heartbreaker.

4. I can respect the explanation, but no way will I accept it haha - Deliberate unsportsmanlike conduct/trips/slews have a tactical aspect and legit role to play, especially when the guy is hustling and not focused on balance.

8. Actually my team has stories for all the turkeys and they share in celebratory "sap" after every goal (we have a disgusting amount of stupid lore we made up to keep things entertaining), so players like Kong, Suros, Andrews, omg others will go or have gone to our hall of fame for certain heroic acts - it makes it all the more painful when they mess up and need to be sent to the grinder (we lost track of how many clones of Saunders we went through).

13. Calling it Bermuda wasn't the right choice of words, I'll admit - it's more of a spiderweb where all the ai flies get trapped, if only briefly. It's fine because both offense and D have set plays they need to abide by, it would just be nice to see them react to the attacker faster.

14. If the other team had human defenders we technically could, but it's safer/easier to just fall back and set up again - you kill the clock the exact same, reduce what the game counts as takeaways, and keep possession with a possible bonus of annoying the other team 

Figured our conversation in https://answers.ea.com/t5/Game-Information/Will-NHL-21-Come-Out-For-PC/m-p/8597139#M823 was more suited for here so...

Rebounds have only been half fixed - whatever you did to the left side in regards to rebounds, please do that for the right side. They are just as bad starting on the right, if not worse than in previous years. You can shoot them from literally anywhere on the right side, that's what makes it such a problem - you can't defend that. You can go right infront of the goalie to stop the rebound all you want, but there are like 4 other angles in which the puck can fly out so you're always at a disadvantage. Not saying they shouldn't have some weight to them, but when many teams are using this as a go-to play (and winning), there is an inherent flaw that needs to be addressed.

By removing high pressure you're essentially making the ai useless in the defensive zone - collapsing and protect net will put them further in, definitely, but they can't react to the rebounds; I can't remember what clip I posted but the faceoff where the computer just wanted to go into position without following the puck showcases that I think.

I think most of the complaints are about computers but the trick is to get close and/or hold your backhand to pass for the crosses like previous years. Human defensive abilities haven't been buffed the same way, at least from what I've seen. If you're not pixel perfect, you ain't gonna save anything and there will most likely be no auto assist either. I may play as a sniper now but that shouldn't mean a pass just goes right between my legs when I'm looking directly at it.
Is it holding L2 that's doing it? I don't even think it's possible to dive with your head facing south anymore..

Real goalies don't bite THAT hard is what I'm getting at. I was told years ago "well goalies are like that to make the game more fun and competitive"... it doesn't work like that in a live game. I can count on 1 hand how many full games we didn't allow a single shot - they're going to happen so you can't just have him flailing around at any little movement, it's just not natural. You say "pfft, no way he can score from that angle..", only for them to fake shot and the goalie jumps into the other team's bench. There are definitely 'meta' dekes that tip the scales (surely you remember the simple backhand goal last year?). 

You're right, the goalies can bail you out but until it happens everyone on your team collectively sighs knowing that the puck will go in. Sliding the Ai learning up one notch would alleviate many problems as far as EASHL is concerned.

The game goes for half price fairly quickly and the vault is a good idea too so the actual price of the game isn't really the issue - it's all the other variables (some of the things you mentioned included, to a degree), where the waters get muddied. I don't think I can be very constructive when it comes to EA's mtx model as a whole so I'll just end this with me agreeing that it'll be interesting to see what the future holds and I hope everyone can be happy.

@TTZ_Dipsy 

3. 50 shots is a pretty high amount. If you're talking about 3s, I can see how there's more open ice and it'd be easier to get more shots, but 6v6 with 50 shots sounds like you're just throwing them on net instead of taking time to set up good scoring chances. If you're missing the net or hitting the post though, the game isn't forcing that to happen. You basically mentioned several ways to score. Which is what we like to see. We don't want someone relying on one or 2 moves. Pretty much, at this point people rarely ever claim a goal wasn't a glitch. There's short side wristers, slapshots, D to D one Ts, cross-crease one Ts, rebounds, etc. When was the last time you said, "Wow, nice play they made. We deserved that". It's probably been a while. My point is, this is hockey. There are many different ways to score, but it's not going to happen a set 80% of the time in certain instances. There's no guarantee that your aim is going to be perfect every time. Again, there is no ice tilt or DDA that is causing you to miss the net. None whatsoever.

4. We'll agree to disagree then. It's still quite easy to take penalties with DSS so I'm not sure what the concern is here. If you deliberately want to take a penalty, it's very easy to do so.

8. I like how you keep it fun. That would be pretty entertaining.

13. I'll keep an eye out for this, but there's no special voodoo in the corner that causes the AI to react poorly.

14. You also rob yourself of a scoring chance. Obviously whatever works best for your team is what you should do. I like dumps because they often generate offense for us as well as kill some time.

One side doesn't have an advantage for rebounds so I believe this is confirmation bias or coincidence. I'll keep an eye out for it.

I guess the big difference is that I'm always watching out for rebounds and positioning myself to get them. The occasional one goes in, but the majority of the time, I'm there to pick them up. If you use them and keep defenders low in the slot, you have forwards to pressure the carrier.

You can still dive head-first. Most often when you're chasing the carrier. AI defenders are quite good at interceptions, but humans can do it as well. Good positioning will often be rewarded with auto-interceptions. Holding L2 just makes you backskate. It can help you face the play to be in a better position to intercept passes.

Yes, I remember that backhand goal. You can still score it. Goalies shouldn't stop every breakaway though. A skilled player is going to have an advantage over the computer. They're earning the goal. There are plenty of times goalies stop those shots as well. Breakaways aren't my strong suit so someone like me isn't going to have as easy a time as someone with better thumbs. That doesn't mean they should score every single time, but someone good enough, probably can. We could make goalies a lot more difficult to score on, and we have done that in the past, but it wasn't met with a good response. Goalies are constantly being reviewed so there's a good chance they'll be tweaked in the future.

The problem with AI learning is that if people could learn to manipulate them by only doing the same thing, then switching it up after a while. They would be less prepared to handle other plays. For example, if goalies recognized someone only shoots for the short side in the first 2 periods, then they switch to going far side, they'll be leaving more susceptible to getting scored on that way since they're covering the short side. I know the studio is always evaluating how the AI play as it's one of the biggest areas we get feedback on so it's quite possible you'll see changes down the road.

3. In 3's, as long as you put the computer as forward since that's all he wants to play and keep him off the blue line, anything that goes wrong is all on the humans. No, I am talking about 6v6 - pure, unadulterated, nuts to butts dominating teams in every category but goals.

Missed nets and posts don't even count as shots so 40 of those 50 are still great shots being saved by a white hot goalie. We have commended other teams on great dekes and stuff mainly because its fun laughing at your buddy making a mistake but its the random triple deflections or one guy slips but launches the puck off the scoreboard right to an open player type of plays we won't think highly of.

I think when people say glitch goal they really just mean cheesers and meta shots. If you know the same move from the same spot is gonna score 95% of the time there's really no point trying something different right? Now think how if other teams let you take that shot 20 times and you don't even score once - you'd be mad right?

4. Apparently it's not so easy when I do want one.  The concern is I clearly swept his legs (through them, in fact) when he wasn't looking and on one leg, wanting a penalty but not getting one; When an attacker is coming in on you, aware of your DSS, he can just skate directly into it for a tripping penalty when he should be fully prepared to shrug it off.

13. No real voodoo, it's like dumps as in it just doesn't fit into our playstyle.

14. Dumps from both computers and humans have literally worked for us less than 10% of the time (and i'm being generous) so there is no scoring chance anyway lol. We don't have the luxury of more human players so its more detrimental to us than it is useful.

*deep breath sigh* ok that actually doesn't sit well with me, they most certainly do work better on the right side. Like, are you truly being serious when you say that? Go to practice mode with both hands on both sides amd shoot far low, you'll see coincidences can't be that astronomically high haha.

Again, this is another case of the computer D just not doing a good job - I'm C and my Buddy is LD -- (on the left from defenders perspective) -- RW is just going to let him through and/or take a shot from that close to the boards, my LD is in charge of getting in the way - of course it goes through the legs or whatever and I have to go infront of the net to stop the rebound (while praying to Satan and whoever else that the goalie won't just let it go 5-hole. Of course the RD not paying any attention to their LW either straight up gets in my way, or just lets the LW blow in for a good 6.5 out of 10 chance at an easy goal.

You can squish all your guys right infront of the net but you'll still need someone to stop them from just deking left and right to make the goalie freak out. Basically, you need to do too much at once with fewer humans so its especially painful when it jist doesn't work out.

To stop a cross over my guy usually falls in relation to the camera so my stick isn't there to block - it's inconsistant unless I'm just not doing it properly.

Vision control doesn't do jack because the puck still just goes literally right between my legs - you think you've done everything right yet they still get an easy one. Half understandable since I'm a sniper, but with their hand eye and their awareness you think they'd be able to grab it if they are in the right spot.

See, shots like that become meta. If everyone knows to do a backhand, that's all they'll do, and it will go in every single time; doesn't even matter what build or traits you use - if you somehow miss, you're pretty much just bad. 

I don't need the goalie's brain to bulge to the roof, I just wish they weren't so awful on easy shots. Ai learning would stop teams from relying one a single play, and I would argue changing your playstyle to potentially fool a goalie is not only realistic, but competitive and, to a degree a skill. If that could be manipulated it would just mean that the periods would become a new meta which could also be defended by smarter teams (plus it would leave unskilled teams with a single period to make plays.)

@TTZ_Dipsy 

3. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. My team never gets 40 shots in a game. It's just not how we play. For us to get 40 shots, we'd have to be throwing the puck on net any chance we get. Regardless, once again, nothing is forcing you to lose even if you're dominating.

Yes. People will claim glitch when it's just a shot from an area with a higher percentage chance of scoring. If someone is scoring from the same spot 95% of the time, that's also on the defense for not recognizing someone is doing the same thing repeatedly and defending it.

4. If you want to be sure to cause a penalty, use a regular poke or dive at them. DSS will easily cause a trip if you sweep from inside to out.

14. That's understandable. I don't blame you for avoiding them then.

I'll watch for the difference in rebounds. There is nothing built into the game to make them better on one side than the other. I've tried to set up rebound goals (in-game) on both sides and they react the same. You get a stronger rebound if you're on the same side as your handedness. When I get a chance, I'll try it out in practice mode.

Thanks for the details on the computer D not playing well for you. I'll have to try getting into a game of 2s soon and see what happens. Normally in these games I'm center and I drop back to play defense. I'm just naturally more defensive-minded. So, maybe I don't see the issue as much as you do just due to how I play. My defense have been pretty good about stepping up though due to the aggressive strategies I set.

When something becomes meta, you also need to learn how to defend it. Those shots are only going to score if you give them the chance. Hockey is just as much defense as it is offense.

I can understand the inconsistency with diving. I know there are occasional times when I don't get the dive I'm expecting, but when if I'm down low in the slot trying to defend a cross-crease One T, almost every time they use the same animation. Which is the correct one. I stop a lot of those passes with that move, but there are times on a 2 on 1, where I'm a little beat and I get the feet-first one instead of the head-first dive. It's rare, but still frustrating at times.

I get what you're saying about AI learning. Hopefully, someday this happens. I think the biggest issue here is that you heavily rely on AI players. It's a very different game when you more humans playing. Obviously AI has room for improvement and I imagine they will get better in time.

@EA_Aljo 

I find 30 shots to be a nice average for a 60-minute game; It's not a perfect science but more humans should equate to better D overall ( of course, you should be seeing lower scoring games the larger that number is)

Computer defenders don't defend the cheese goals properly, that's why they always go in - if the D does their classic horrible blueline cross pass that gets picked off in the offensive zone and that leads to their humans having all the room in the world to get their goals, well, that's not on us.

You mentioned AI learning potentially being manipulated but it's already happening - I think it would actually take longer to adjust and manipulate them with a higher awareness. 

"Just throw humans on D and focus on that" is a viable retort no doubt but I think that would only be forcing more meta playstyles *shrug*. Teams need a balance of offense and defense but there doesn't seem to be as much of a flow between the two (for us at least)

4. There should be just as much of a percentage going inside out as outside in. Also, my stick, even though it wasn't a sweep (because why should I think it needs to be), still went through his legs from the inside out. I see your point though.

Nothing may be built specifically to do it, but by fixing one side and not the other, it's effectively the same thing. Shots from the left react how they should - ie, they just keep flying right off the pads with a lot of momentum, but when you shoot from the right it has an extremely high chance to lose all its momentum and rebound right in front to 3 prime spots for easy tap-ins - If the ai defender doesn't stand in the attackers way it's pretty much a guaranteed goal.

You can't honestly expect to stop every single shot in the game though, all they need is that one shot and they know it - to people who only care about wins at any cost, what does an extra 20 shots matter? humans going to cover those shots also mess with ai positions.

When you're already down low, yes the dive works head up but the meta for low count teams is normally to just cover the other guy so they don't do a cross-over.

Yup, it's the foot first dive I'm talking about; it doesn't happen every time but enough to raise a few eyebrows.

Mm it's quite the opposite, really - the AI has proven time and time again they can't be trusted which forces us to do extra work, cover more plays, which causes all these problems. Playing with more humans will work but is just a band-aid and does nothing to solve the root of the problem. Sure you can just both play human D and let the computers run wild but not only is that super boring, if they can't score you're absolutely screwed. It's our bad for expecting the ai to understand human behaviour in certain situations, but they should know when to deviate from the script.

In other news - My friend and I recently got #3 in the Plays of the Month but when I logged into the game today I noticed the prize jerseys were only for HUT and the Chel jerseys were still locked - is that a bug or do those just come from regular bags?

@TTZ_Dipsy 

I agree that human defenders aren't as good about being in position for rebounds. If I have AI defenders, it's because I'm playing center. In that case, I drop back and watch for those shots if playing a team that likes to use them. The idea of AI learning is a good one and I know it's something the dev team is aware of. Hopefully, we'll see this improve over time.

There's always a counter to meta playstyles. Teams that rely on them are going to be at a disadvantage if they go up against a team that knows how to defend them. The teams that are most difficult, in my experience at least, are the ones that control the puck really well. They're good at creating space which generate good scoring chances. It requires defense to have patience and play a bit of a slower game where you're cutting off their options. Many teams play overly aggressive which often ends up putting defenders out of position. So, while there may be meta playstyles, a team that gets creative and controls the puck is probably going to be more deadly than one relying on rebounds and short side wristers.

4. I understand what you're saying, but this is also a balance issue. If your stick is between their legs, it's a lot more of a dangerous situation than making contact from the outside. Tripping is already a sensitive subject for a lot of people. The way it is now though, you still need to be really careful as they are easy to cause, but you're also kind of rewarded for using more controlled pokes with DSS.

I personally haven't noticed any difference with rebounds on both sides. I'm wondering how often you try both sides though. If you're a left-handed player, I can see rebounds being easier from the left side and vice versa for the right. I'm comfortable with both hands so I switch it up often. I go for rebounds on either side when the play dictates it and haven't seen any difference between the 2. I'm not saying I don't believe you. Just saying we may experience this differently if you're favoring the left side over the right side heavily as well as using different angles due to your handedness. You're going to get a stronger shot when shooting from the left side with a left-handed player than shooting from the right side with a left-handed player.

Of course, you're not going to stop every shot, but you can severely limit someone's ability to score if they attempt the same shot over and over again. I find those teams to be easier to play since they're so predictable. Like the guys that go for rebounds non-stop. I don't have to worry so much about defending anything else. I just plant myself to the right of the goalie and pick up the rebounds. However, as you know, AI defenders aren't as good at recognizing that. Regardless, my point is, the more skilled teams won't rely on one or 2 methods of scoring.

I feel like the foot first dive is the one that happens more often and what I'd rather have. Normally, if I dive, it's to cut off a cross-crease pass. I'm already back in my zone and the puck is in front of me. I get the headfirst dive if they're getting ahead of me. In most cases. Sometimes I get feet first if they're almost lined up with me. I'd rather have a headfirst dive then. It's definitely frustrating to dive in the direction you weren't intending though so I get that for sure.

I know the AI players can be frustrating. All I can tell you is that they're constantly being reviewed and adjusted. Which you don't see until updates or future games. For now, the best I can tell you is to use more human players. I know that's not always possible or you choose not to. We'll just have to wait and see what happens down the road.

I'll look into your jersey issue and get back to you on it. Thanks for letting me know.

@EA_Aljo 

A great team doesn't need to rely on meta (but of course you'd still take the easy goals when given the opportunity), but a less-skilled team can safely rely on this style since it's so effective, countered or not. Counters work like bullet proof glass - you can easily stop a few shots, even a dozen, but eventually something is going to be minutely different and cause one to squeak by.

I'm more concerned about situations out of human control (within a reasonable degree), that lead to easy setups for the other team. Just last night I won the faceoff in my end, the ai picked it up clean and just passed it right to an opposing ai who just flicked it in (to win in OT as well).

Regardless of handedness we can guarantee super tight chances when firing from the right but when firing from the left it's more hoping to get a random 5-hole or lucky defender own-goal. 

In all the games we've played, right side rebound goals (left to right from defenders perspective looking north) outnumber left side attempts (let alone goals) 20 to 1, no joke.

If I were in your shoes I'd be skeptical too but I'm just reporting what I see. 

I can record every rebound cheese attempt from both sides but will probably need a sample size and to make space (plus that could take a while)

I'm probably biased because I only really play EASHL and ONES, but it feels like there are already so many different modes - by combining some of them together I think we could have something great.

It would be a major amount of work but monthly leagues for a BaP/Franchise mashup with daily or weekly matchups would be fun and combining HUT with EASHL to create Ultimate Hockey League or something would open up more opportunities for streamers, mtx, and competitions

@TTZ_Dipsy 

Thanks for all the details. I'll have to keep an eye out for the rebounds issue you're talking about. I already use them somewhat regularly, but will try them even more. However, that's most often in HUT where goalie ratings may come into play.

Less-skilled teams definitely seem to go for rebounds more, but when defending them right, it severely limits their scoring chances. Yes, I agree that eventually, a shot will squeak by, but if they are truly less-skilled and you're defending rebounds as well as your team being higher-skilled, you shouldn't have much of a problem beating them.

I played a few games last night. 6v6 EASHL where there were just 3 of us. I played LD and never had a problem with the RD not covering his side. I've now seen multiple reports of this happening so I don't know what I need to do to get that to happen. However, one thing I didn't do was leave the strategies at default. I switch them up so D pressure is on high pressure along with my offensive zone bias at full forecheck and breakout on full attack. This might make a difference. I'll keep watching for this though.

A mashup of EASHL and HUT sounds interesting, but I have a feeling it would really rub a lot of people the wrong way. I feel like many in EASHL don't want it getting mixed up with HUT, but if it was done right and didn't truly affect standard HUT modes, it could be cool.