Anyone who thinks Plants are balanced...

I postulated that DS and Frenzy are comparable abilities in a lot of respects. I still believe this: of all the unique abilities plants and zombies have, these are (as far as I’m concerned, though I would be happy to be proven wrong) the most similar in function.

At face value (“in theory,” “in a vacuum,” what have you) I argued that DS is *almost* strictly better. Space Cowboy may be the exception that proves the rule.

You summed this much up well. :-)

Daalnnii would argue that you can’t ignore practice, i.e. the actual cards and what they do, and made the argument that “zombies with frenzy can attack three times in one lane” which is a “potential that plants can’t match.”

Sort of.

Potential is a tricky thing, for one because it could be argued on and on and on with example after anecdote after example.

It’s true that Zombies with frenzy can attack three times in one lane. It’s also true that Team Up plants affect a block meter as one plant. So DS team up plants can colllectively attack four times in one lane if bestowed with DS.

This may seem like a technicality, until you consider that Coffee Grounds is an easy way to bestow Double Strike, and  Vegitation Mutation is in the same class.

Ultimately, I think “in practice” zombies that actually have Frenzy can match or exceed the potential of plants that have DS. But I also think DS has more potential as an ability because it can be bestowed cheaply and can make decks lightning fast (because of increased face damage over Frenzy.) Captain C has many routes to a turn 3 win through Grounds.

1.  That was a nice analysis of the debate so far.

2.  You're absolutely right, Combustible can be devastating with the repeats if you don't have cards to deal with it.

That said, I urge you not to forget about going viral.  It can be an absolutely devastating card, for which there is no answer until the next turn.  

As far a CC repeat decks go...  There is twotwo ma weaknesses that can never be exploited by plants on frenzy:  Deadly & Gravestones.  They can ruin a double strike deck's day.  

But yeah, you say double strike is inherently better, which if we were only considering thet pros if the effect, iI would agree with you wholeheartedly.  I feel you have to consider the weaknesses when discussing which is better, which is why i  say you have to consider the other cards in the game to make that determination.  In doing so, I find them different, but equal.

Can always tell who lost the arguement/debate when someone starts resorting to correcting grammar

I think for the most part with plants what you see is what you get.

Double Strike cannot be made any better beyond increasing the strength of the attack.

Frenzy can be made better by making a Frenzied Zombie deadly or giving the lane strike through (or both). A lane with a team up plant in it facing a Frenzy zombie in a strike through lane that will kill both will make you cry.

Honestly I do not like or use DS cards. I much prefer Strike Through. Less reliance on a meat shield.

I don’t think Strikethrough enters this discussion.

Strikethrough is an ability both plants and zombies possess, and which both plants and zombies are able to bestow. Yes, it improves Frenzy. It also improves Double Strike. It may be that not many plant players mix the two abilities in the current meta. Nonetheless, it can be done. I’ve seen it happen. And it is exactly as effective as it sounds.

I’m not a particular fan of DS myself, but I do love it in my Party Thyme decks.

Just about every card in the game has multiple applications. What you see is almost never what you get, until you see what else you get and what that gets you.

@npgibbs I’m reading between the lines, and what I hear you saying is that Laser Base Alpha is good.

Correct.

There are a lot of bonkers environments out there that will win you the game in most cases if they stay in play long enough. 

There are even some that you only need to use for one turn. (Grapes of Wrath in the context of Cyclecap is better than Lase Base Alpha will ever be... though of course not strictly better.)

Here is something for you to consider, though. Laser is a sneaky card. Frenzy literally does not exist in sneaky class. (A sneaky hero has it, none of the class cards do.) So the interaction you’re touting is one that has to be very deliberately set up that way.

Frenzy + Laser Base should, at least in theory, be no easier or harder to fabricate than Double Strike + Sun Strike, or indead Strikethrough + Coffee Grounds.

Involving environments in the first place is dangerous in a way, because so many of them are absurdly abusable (even the common/uncommon ones, like Nebula and Flytrapplannet before they were nerfed.).

Strike Thru was an aside. I digressed.

As a plant player I believe it takes more skill to play Zombies because you have to properly distribute your strategy in a round between zombie phase and trick phase. Sure there are exceptions like pet decks and barrel rolling imp decks but if you want to take any zombie deck to the next level you have to properly manage your two phases.

Zombies has arguably the most creative (and destructive) combinations in the game. Making AoE Zombies deadly. Filling opponent's hand with max cards so they can't use block meter. Playing Zombies on trick turn.

Zombies > Plants  when the player is very skilled.

I would agree with almost every word you wrote if not for:

1.) Forget-Me-Nuts

2.) Brainana

3.) Dark Matter Dragonfruit

There are other cards that can ruin zombie plans, but these ones really throw of your resource allocation math.

So I agree that:

1.) The zombie/trick phase split often makes zombies a little trickier to play;

and 2.) in part because they’re “trickier,” zombie/trick decks have a lot of creative potential.

But I think the three cards listed above prove how hard it is to take this information and assert that “Zombies are better.”

Sometimes Occum’s Razor applies. (Simplest = best.)

It's berry clear what's the main issue. 

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@npgibbs wrote:
It takes a super power from SF to get ahead of the sun count while a gourmet trick x 4 of uncommon quality gets any brainy Zombie there.

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A Super Power or one of several sun-producing plants.  Yes, they can be destroyed, but they can also be pumped up or even simply block a lane.  Many of them also get Team-Up, which is a rather nice perk.

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@jj48car wrote:

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@npgibbs wrote:
It takes a super power from SF to get ahead of the sun count while a gourmet trick x 4 of uncommon quality gets any brainy Zombie there.

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A Super Power or one of several sun-producing plants.  Yes, they can be destroyed, but they can also be pumped up or even simply block a lane.  Many of them also get Team-Up, which is a rather nice perk.

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Yes they can be destroyed. But after seeing HG drop an Octo Zombie on turn 3 I laugh at any topic claiming plants are balanced. Zombie players are capable of some of the most outrageous tricks and unfortunately they can occur very early in the game.

Ok, yes, Zombies have a few ridiculous combos.  Plants have their entire decks consisting of nothing but ridiculous combos.  

The problem is, most well-tuned Plant decks aren't playing against the Zombie deck; they're playing against themselves.  If the Plant deck works properly, it is 100% guaranteed to win, regardless of how well or how poorly the Zombie deck works.  The only way for a Zombie deck to win against them is for the Zombie deck to work well and the Plant deck to perform poorly.

I'm also curious as to how an Octo Zombie got out on turn 3, and how repeatable it is.  Because I do repeatedly see Plant players play Lily of the Valley on Turn 2, followed by a Doubled Mint and +2/+2 power on Turn 3, for a 5/6 plant that's going to double every turn.  I regularly see Berries and Freezing decks devoted entirely to making sure that the Zombie player doesn't get to do anything all game long.

Yes, Zombies have some potent combos, if they manage to get all their cards together, but Plants have far more synergy in their theme decks, and often synergize with actual game mechanics rather than just arbitrary keywords.  The only Zombie decks that even come close to that level of synergy are Sports decks, and that's really just because of how ludicrous Invulnerability is.  (Personally, I think all cards that currently make a Plant or Zombie invulnerable should instead just give it Armored 2.  Still very useful, but at least possible to overcome with enough work.)

I laugh at posts that claim that one instance of a powerful Zombie combo completely balances against the very repeatable power of Plants.

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@npgibbs wrote:

Yes they can be destroyed. But after seeing HG drop an Octo Zombie on turn 3 I laugh at any topic claiming plants are balanced. Zombie players are capable of some of the most outrageous tricks and unfortunately they can occur very early in the game.

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Only for 1 combo? you can called the whole saga unbalanced? ._. I'm sure that even that, it's quite difficult to achieve, many other things can be achieved more easily. 

I have 4 octo zombies from the beginning, I always get them in premium packs, I never managed to use them more than with a deck of many tricks with boogaloo and play he on turn 8, so, if you discover the way to play on turn 3, please tell me, lol,  i want to have that fun  and at least get profit of Octo. 

Forget it, it's not worth to try, I remembered that octo is beastly, so, obviously HG got him from chest, what is quite uncommon, It is not as such a combo or game strategy. It's not even worth it to take as an example,  it's 1/100 .

You know what I've noticed while playing?  A lot of my opponents are using zero removal.  None.  I mean, your example of a doubled mint that was Lily'd and the +2/2...  A deadly could kill it.  Or alien ooze.  Or any number of combinations from a pretty deck that probably could have taken out Lily along the way. Or just keeping Lily off the board like you should have.  

But, none of that happens.  It's all zombies and environments.  

I don't know if it's the same from there zombie side.  But I know I will most of my games and could lose a lot more of people would carry some removal in their deck.

Octo Turn 3 is easy. (I said easy. Not reliable.)

You say your opponent used Chest. So (s)he probably also used Medula Nebula, which could come out turn 2 w/Terror Former? Chest/Nebula is one of the truly insane zombie combos on the surface: together they’re broken; apart they’re hardly worth playing. (I used to try, but no longer do it in any of my competitive decks.)

So +2 brains from Chest (assuming its cost was reduced). +3 from Vendor (assuming its cost was reduced and it was played on chest). Presto. 8 brains turn 3.

The reason Turn 2 Bad Moon Rising is much, much trickier than Turn 3 Octo Zombie is that you literally can’t go through Nebula.

So, OK: “Whoever thinks Zombies are balanced has never seen Turn 3 Octo.”

Here’s my counter. “Whoever thinks plants are balanced has never seen their tried and tuned Ult. deck beaten by vanilla beans & bounce by the EA AI.” (For those of you not in the know, by vanilla I mean “no abilities...”)

Are we having fun yet? :-)

@daalnnii, @everonewhoisntplayingremoval: You gotta pack removal, guys. Come on!

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@daalnnii wrote:

You know what I've noticed while playing?  A lot of my opponents are using zero removal.  None.  I mean, your example of a doubled mint that was Lily'd and the +2/2...  A deadly could kill it.  Or alien ooze.  Or any number of combinations from a pretty deck that probably could have taken out Lily along the way. Or just keeping Lily off the board like you should have.  

But, none of that happens.  It's all zombies and environments.  

I don't know if it's the same from there zombie side.  But I know I will most of my games and could lose a lot more of people would carry some removal in their deck.

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I carry removal in my deck, but there's no guarantee that you'll always have a removal card when you need it, especially in the earliest turns.  I suppose I could go the route many Solar Flare players do and just make 90% of my deck removal and never actually play any Zombies, but at that point, why bother even playing the game if instead of trying to win I'm just focusing on preventing my opponent from playing at all?

Furthermore, the existence of removal doesn't prevent cards and combos from being overpowered.  Suppose there were a 1-cost, 1/1 card with the ability, "Start of Turn:  You win the game."  Would that be balanced simply because a lot of removal cards could wipe it out before next turn?

@jj48car There are several cards with that ability. One I think is called QDCM. One is called Astro-Shroom.

That's why I provided a much easier to come by it with deadly...  But, control decks are a thing.  They're a thing in just about every card game.  It may not be the finest to play or play against, but they are legitimate strategies.  

That said, it's always against plants.  Is Lily still really that much of a problem?  There are so many ways to kill that card the turn it's played, it's ridiculous to even bring it up.

If you are going to say the entire deck plants have access to is OP you really need to give an example instead of rhetoric.

And if the takeaway from playing an Octo Zombie cool story is the Octo Zombie then you are missing the trees in the forest. The point of the story is:

1. He managed to generate 7 brains on turn 3. Seven. And it was not an inmpossibly hard combination. With reduced brain cards and evolving zombies sitting on a Nebula you can generate a higher than turn brain count in a way that isn't difficult.

2. Teleport IS a problem. It breaks the mechanics of the game. The entire reason why Zombies get 2 cycles is because you are only supposed to play tricks on the last cycle.

But I see the pro Zombie players are not touching that point with a 10 foot pole. It is one thing to see a Zombie player get to 11 brains on turn 6 and then drop a huge trick but it is another when Zombie players can beat the brain count and then drop a high brain Zombie on an open lane during the trick phase that will either kill you right there and then or give you nightmares to deal with in the next round.

Being able to play Zombies on the trick phase needs to go away.

Being able to take your health above 20 needs to go away.