Berries MUST be Nerfed
I have never called for nerfing before. I also thought some of the nerfing, like with Valkyrie, were maybe not needed but still was not upset about it. But now I feel the Strawberrian/Strongberry com...
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Sorry I meant Legendary.
That is a strong deck, and I have similar ones. In fact, early on it was one of my favorite decks. I still don't think it matches Berries in terms of win rates etc ... especially when you factor in rarity.
I guess what I was trying to say is that if there is not a matching deck on the other side (Zombie), that in itself is an indicator of a possible OP deck.
Looks like you got your wish!
Berries are being nerfed.
@Gabochido wrote:Looks like you got your wish!
Berries are being nerfed.
Where do you see that? I am still seeing "Spring Update" in the News.
You really should follow the reddit forums. That's where most of the discussion about this game actually happens. Just search "PVZ Heroes Reddit". People keeping track of the game are constantly datamining their sources and an update came up over the weekend showing a balance update. They don't have an exact date of when the update will happen, but they've been consistently correct beforehand.
Just got off of Reddit...Ugh ... not a real nerf at all. Strongberry goes from 4/4 to 4/3, and Strawberrian now only does its bonus attacks "Next Door" (instead of also in its own lane). This will not fix the problems. Both costs should have been raised by one -- or at LEAST raise Strawberrian to 4 cost. Strongberry was never "too healthy" ... it is all the bonus hits/looping that is challenge, and the speed at which you can ramp em.
And I really hate some of the other nerfs. Raising the cost of Valkyrie ... AGAIN? Come on. Now it costs 7 to put her on the Mustache Monument. How many times they going to nerf her? She is not OP ... it takes a lot of time and LUCK to ramp her up to a final death blow, and you have to have a lane open etc. This change will make it not worth playing that anymore.
Barrel of Barrels now cost 2? That will kill one of my fun Impfinity Decks.
Planet of the Grapes going to 3 cost? There goes my Killer Beans deck.
I do like the raise of Briar Rose to 5 cost however.
I sure wish they would release the supporting stats for some of these changes. :-)
that's a pretty big nerf... Strawberrian also got a need to a 3/2, making it vulnerable to plumber, and it can't defend it's own Lane.
You're not wanting the deck nerfed (Which again, I'm, was only needed because the community are lazy crybabies) you're wanting an "I win" button when you play berries.
Ha! I get your point, and I did miss the heath reduction which will help. I still think a cost increase to 4 would have been better for balance. We shall see!
I doubt they fixed the dueling Strongberry "keeps attacking after death loop" bug though.
This is what a lot of players react like but I was expecting something more humble from a fellow software developer. While balance changes are usually imperfect, I think we should always give the benefit of the doubt, specially if we don't have all the information. Have you never created a piece of software and had people falsely think that it did not work in a way it was meant to work just because they didn't think about it?
I personally agree with Daalnnii about Berries being quite beatable, but it is clear that the player base doesn't so, the nerf will hopefully create a more balanced metagame. The most important thing about both Berry nerfs is that both key cards have been reduced in health, making them susceptible to a larger number of removal spells. It seems to me that you're not considering this in your evaluation of the nerf, since this will have quite a big effect on how zombie heroes can deal with them. Also, now you can put a small zombie in front of Strawberrian without it dying automatically because the berry player played a couple of berries.
Also, you are down on some of the nerfs to the zombie side but I assume that because you haven't been following the reddit forums, you haven't seen people complain about barrel of barrels or how Valk is still a very strong card. Did you know that after they nerfed all the cards used in Valk OTK people reacted just like you, saying that it wasn't enough and that Valk was the one that needed the nerf. They were wrong but I think it's fair to consider that now that Berries have been made weaker, the strongest zombie strategies also need to be constrained to avoid fully dominating again.
Woot! I’m happy about the Valk thing and satisfied with the changes to Berries.
Nerfing Valk is what PvZ should have done to begin with... instead of hitting “supporting cards” that weren’t even in the same class. I was seriously PO’ed about Regifting, which I immediately ground to dust.
Valk is a card I never owned... until the turnover of last season. Now I’ll be able to turn my one copy into anything I want.
Increasing the cost of cards should always be the last stage of nerfing. A Strawberry that doesn’t hit in front of itself is much easier to deal with w/simple opposition, and putting it in range of plunger is a gift. I’ll happily recycle mine whilst knowing plant players will still be able able to play the card and the meta won’t be too shaken.
@Gabochido wrote:1. Have you never created a piece of software and had people falsely think that it did not work in a way it was meant to work just because they didn't think about it?
2. I personally agree with Daalnnii about Berries being quite beatable
3. ...but it is clear that the player base doesn't so, the nerf will hopefully create a more balanced metagame. The most important thing about both Berry nerfs is that both key cards have been reduced in health, making them susceptible to a larger number of removal spells. It seems to me that you're not considering this in your evaluation of the nerf, since this will have quite a big effect on how zombie heroes can deal with them.
4. Also, now you can put a small zombie in front of Strawberrian without it dying automatically because the berry player played a couple of berries.
5. Also, you are down on some of the nerfs to the zombie side but I assume that because you haven't been following the reddit forums, you haven't seen people complain about barrel of barrels
6. ...or how Valk is still a very strong card. Did you know that after they nerfed all the cards used in Valk OTK people reacted just like you, saying that it wasn't enough and that Valk was the one that needed the nerf.
7. They were wrong but I think it's fair to consider that now that Berries have been made weaker, the strongest zombie strategies also need to be constrained to avoid fully dominating again.
1. Yes I have ... but they still deserved their opinion and I respected it as the end "consumer" of my software. And it is strange to me that you would read opinion boards like reddit and not expect opinions ... even strong ones. :-)
2. I do too ... I have said so several times. But neither one of you have ever once agreed with my main point of that it takes very SPECIFIC, Berry-targeted decks to beat them consistently. And those same decks are not very good against other decks (and not much fun). You also have never admitted that the Berry decks can have ZERO Legendary cards, where the decks needed to really beat them usually do.
3. I do see the health reduction effect, and as I admitted, I missed the one for Strawberrian. I was just saying I think a cost increase would have been a better/easier fix to the bigger problem of the chaining/bonus attacks. I actually played 20 games this morning with my fav Valk deck. Not surprising, 18 of those games were against Berry decks. I imagined that the changes were in place, and I could definitely see the difference and the reduction in power. But I also saw three times were they would have made no difference, and I was still pretty much helpless against a Strawberrian and 2 Strongberries. Yes I know my Valk deck is not a good anti-berry deck. But it was still telling. Overall it made me feel much better about the shift in balance. I just hope that shift is enough to reduce the crazy percentage of berry players. I fear it may not because of the cheapness of the decks.
4. Good point ... but that will probably become the main target of Berry Blast, so would have to be 4 or more health and that is not really "small". Because that would still trigger the attacks on adjacent lanes. I like the change NTL.
5. Nope ... never saw those. What was the chief complaint? It makes something deadly and draws a card. That works great with a card like Tankylosaurus, but that is a very specific and rare "power fusion". How were they saying it was OP?
6. I really don't see how Valk is still OP. The OTK nerfing seemed to balance it out great ... I saw it EVERYWHERE before the nerf, and now it is rare. I even played it less after that. But I was never ONLY going after the OTK. That was a "bonus" if it all came together. Made putting out sacrificial lambs less painful. And the cost increase only delays a potential OTK by one round...NBD. But it also makes her less useful earlier as a high health card that could have decent attack by then. Remember she starts with ZERO health ... which really sucks when she is RNGd by other cards onto the field. So still don't see where the cost increase was needed. The cost increase of Final Mission really nerfed her indirectly as well.
And in my same session described above in item 3, I thought about Valk being 4 cost and there was at least two times that would have really hurt my play (neither were OTK).
7. I understand ... I'll say it again though, I have NEVER seen a Zombie deck dominate like Berries have been, especially with zero legendary cards required. More important, no one can deny that no Zombie deck has ever been in the "80%+ of all matches played" stats like Berries is now.
I look forward to see how the changes work in practice!
- Fine then.
- I still don't agree. I do admit berry decks can have zero legendary cards and think that's a good thing. I disagree that all decks that can beat berries need legendaries, since there is at least one counter example in the sports archetype. It is very strong against berries (armor, gravestones and prevention of damage are their weakness) and doesn't require legendaries.
- My Valk deck is very strong against berries so I don't know how you built yours.
- Fine then.
- BoB essentially switches combat at the very low cost of 1 brain. This is very relevant in sneaky with cards like Dr Spacetime, impostor and imp throwing imp, where they have low attack but inherent card advantage. Notice that with Dr Spacetime, it is essentially a free card since the card you conjure costs one less mana. It is very clear that you're not seeing it. Then again, I would say Valk is just very strong at this point, not OP. The problem is that by balancing against berries, it could potentially become dominant again and that would be really bad for the game as people were much more upset about Valk OTK when it was truly OP than about berries even now because the losses felt uninteractive. To me the nerf makes sense as a preventive measure.
- I play the game as zombies quite a lot too and have never seen more than 50% ratio of berries decks in 20 games. My own anecdotal evidence is just as anecdotal as yours though so "denying that a zombie deck is 80% of all matches played" is moot point.
I don't usually go to Reddit, so I'm glad it was mentioned in here to remind me to look up the changes there (and wow, I had forgotten just how horribly laid out that site is). Overall, looks pretty exciting. Berries will now require a little thought to play properly, though they still look to be quite viable with some care. Furthermore, it looks like a couple of the staples of my Tankylosaurus deck are actually getting buffed!
Well, I usually use Tankylosaurus with Professor Brainstorm, so I rarely get to use BoB with him, anyway (only if I conjure it).
I did read, though, that Mad Chemist was receiving an extra hit point, and that Trick-or-Treater was gaining Gravestone. Both of these combo well with Tanky, though they're both Brainy class. I'd recommend trying out the Professor, though. Playing a Triplication with Tanky and a Trick-or-Treater or two is pure pandemonium when you can pull it off!
