Gameplay discussion: manual detonation variants

I like the concept of manual detonation characters, but in practice they are just too good in their current state. I would have nerfed these characters before something like Rose's Goatify. I don't play these characters often as I'm not particularly good at timing the detonation.

Of these three, I like Petrified Cactus the most as I see her the least, and tends to be less annoying than the other 2. That, and I like that she has a nest for those critters that ride her around.

In the middle is Captain Cannon. Like you say, his defensive scatter gun version is fine, but his extend-o-cannon is too good in the hands of those that are proficient with this weapon.

And of course, there's a reason Electro-Pea is infamous in GW2. A good E-Pea is far, far worse than even Toxic Brainz can be, since at least Toxic Brainz has to get into melee (he still needs nerfing of course). I've seen more posts on the Reddit complaining about max ranks using E-Peas to abuse lobbies than pretty much anything else. This guy really needs the nerf bat.

They could keep this idea, as the concept is fine, but it needs to be less easy to abuse. One issue all 3 games have is with the 3rd person view is how some players use that corner viewpoint exploit where they can shoot past corners even though you can't see them, and these characters make this worse, even if they can be used to counter this behavior from the other side. The biggest changes I'd ask for if the next game is largely based on GW2 is to nerf Toxic Brainz, buff Disco Chomper, nerf Astronaut, give Imp Punt some kind of wind up/visual queue to make it easier for plants to avoid, and above all, make these guys less oppressive.

@Iron_Guard8Im absolutely terrible at timing the detonations with these characters and bot versions of them seem to fire rather slowly rather than detonate so they aren't oppresive.

I really like the animal variants, especially on zombies since you seem them treat them rather kindly.

They should also remove electro pea's speed buff or Atleast make it well known as it's stupid he has an internal advantage.

I mainly agree with you list: major nerf or rework to electro pea, minor nerf to toxic Brainz, nerf to astronaut, visual windup or better arm times for certain abilities, and disco to be buffed alonsgide chomper getting that back chomp rework. They could also ise my idea of the pick rate scale to judge if a character needs buffs or nerfs.

Time for manual detonation, which you do not actually need a manual for! These characters will fire explosive projectiles, which you are able to detonate while they are travelling. If you go to fire a shot while you already have an airbone shot, you will detonate that instead, so you will need to wait until you detonate a shot before you can fire again, which can slow down the speed of your attacks, although you can use this feature to detonate near your enemies at almost any range.

These shots generally deal significant damage, although you will need to time the detonations of your shots carefully so you are able to deal damage to enemies effectively and you will need to be patient before firing another shot so you do not detonate the shot at an insiginificant time. You can use these shots well to deal damage to enemies behind cover and enemies at really far distances, so timing your detonations well can reward you with some excellent vanquishes.

Electro Pea: You are able to detonate your shots while they are travelling through the air to deal damage to enemies at any range or even around corners. Each shot will deal 20-30 damage and 10-25 splash damage, when dealing damage to an enemy normally, depending on the range between your shot and the enemy. Every direct hit you inflict on your enemy is always a critical hit as well. If you manually detonate your shot in the air, you will deal 27 damage to nearby enemies. Compared to regular Peashooter, you have 8 maximum ammo (instead of the default 10). As you are an electric variant as well, you will deal 16 electric damage to nearby enemies as well, whether you hit them with a regular shot or you manually detonate it at an enemy.

Petrified Cactus: You are able to detonate your shots while they are travelling through the air to deal damage to enemies at any range or even around corners. Each shot will deal 30-45 damage and 16-30 splash damage, depending on the distance between your shot and the enemy. Every direct hit you inflict on your enemy is always a critical hit as well. Compared to regular Cactus, you have 8 maximum ammo (instead of the default 15). As you are an armored variant as well, you have 150 health (instead of the default 125) and your movement speed will be reduced, so keep these changes in mind as you can pair this well with your manual detonation capabilities.

Captain Cannon: You are able to detonate your shots while they are travelling through the air to deal damage to enemies at any range or even around corners. Each shot will deal 30-40 damage for regular hits and 36-46 damage for critical hits, which all depend on the range between you and your enemy. You can deal 1-10 splash damage to enemies as well, which additionally depends on the distance between you and the enemy. You can only use this attack when you are aiming. When you are not aiming, you will use a different attack which is limited to close range, it deals 25 damage per shot and it uses 2 ammo per shot. This attack has no manual detonation capabilities.

Basic Notes

• You can equip the Damage upgrade on these characters to improve their damage further, they already deal significant damage so improving the damage further will make your shots even more powerful.
• Your manual detonation attacks are great against grouped enemies as you are able to deal damage to all of them. Use your shots well and detonate them once the shot gets to a group of enemies. You can deal plenty of damage this way.
• Attacking when close to enemies are really useful as you can detonate your shots almost instantly after firing your shot and you can improve your fire rate this way by attacking quickly. The projectiles do not need to travel as far so less delay between shots.
• If you want to stay out of harm's way, you can attack from long distances. You will need to have good timing to detonate your shots on enemies at long range, but you have more time to retreat if things go south.
• If your enemy retreats around a corner, it is still quite likely that you will be able to deal damage to them, and possibly vanquish them at low health. Wait for your shot to go past that corner or area, and then detonate it.

These characters and their manual detonation capabilities are great and can be used in many different ways!

TheSprinter85

stukapooka 

Iron_Guard8

I'm sorry that I am late in taking part in this discussion, but I think it would be a great pity to nerf Electro Pea, as I find it important that there are characters that require more than above average skill to use....and he is definitely one of them. 

He is an odd character in many ways, as on the one hand, he requires real and exceptional skill to use effectively at close range and within a broad band of mid-range while on the other, one can spam him when in melée which requires an absolute minimum of skill. 

Over the course of 6 years, I have met very few players who can use him properly and would therefore (after his nerf) broadly speaking rank him as being on par with the other powerful peas such as Stock/Plasma/Toxic and Agent. 

He is really only effective at close and medium range, as his shot is far too slow to be of much use at long range (apart from the occasional lucky shot). He is definitely not an ideal character to come up against, but I have found when playing as engineers such as Painter at long and medium-range or the Plumber at medium to close-range that he can be countered.

So from my point of view characters that are out-and-out dangerous because they require skill to use should not be nerfed, as it would take a lot of the flavour away from the game for those who find it challenging to master a difficult character, while characters that are extremely dangerous, but require a minimum of skill, should be nerfed. Toxic Brainz being a case in point. 

Thanks @stukapooka. Fair enough about the damage nerf as he can in the right hands be horrendously dangerous compared to the other top Peas, just as long as it does not take away the reward of being able to master a top-end character.
As regards his speed boost, yes I forgot that, it is unreasonable how fast he is when compared to the other characters. Come to think of it, I am actually wondering whether he is not at least just as fast as the Sunflowers.

@PerniciousPea I see what you mean as far as character's requiring more skill than others should have a higher pay off. I just don't want them to be too good, especially in a game with so many younger players that aren't as tactically savvy as we older folks. The fact that E-Pea is the subject of so much ire, and so many max ranks play him to 'seal club' means there is a problem. 

You're never going to get perfect balance in a game where characters diverge so much in how they operate from each other, and having a  difficult to use character be excellent in the hands of an expert is fine, but that line of excellence can't be too high, or it ruins lobbies, and I strongly dislike abilities that are so oppressive that chunks of people just leave the match, that happens in BfN with Brainium Basher too, even if a lot of us can handle them, they're still obnoxious and get away too easy from retribution all too often.

Valid points @Iron_Guard8 .  As regards E. Pea I see yours and stukapooka's point in having characters that are too overpowered even if they do require great skill to use, and see the danger of frightning away newcomers to the game.
That, on the other hand, puts an even greater emphasis on nerfing characters that deal out tremendous damage, but take a minimum amount of skill to use, such as Branium Basher and Toxic Brainz. 

On reflection, Toxic Brainz is indispensable in the Boss hunt, "Tale of the Spooky Squash", so having him nerfed (should that boss hunt ever return to the game) would give me a serious problem.

@PerniciousPea I am not sure if I directly suggested giving Electro Pea a nerf but despite that, I have firmly believed that he needed a nerf for a long time. I would not expect everything major, although players who are very experienced with this character or manual detonation characters in general could be very frustrating or unfun to fight against. I have played the shooters since late 2017 and I have still generally have trouble dealing with manual detonation characters.