Garden Warfare Talk Topic: Maps

I can’t say wheteher I like one over the other, but there certainly aspects that I miss and welcome. In GW1 the majority of maps seem a little tighter or you able to get from one side of the map to the other a little quicker (laterally).  I agree that there were more tiers to fight from giving snipers the advantage in GW1.  In the first game I loved every level on there, yes even cactus canyon.  In the sequel I’m not a big fan of moon base z or GWN.  I can’t explain why.  I think it has to do with me hating ice levels as a kid in any game.

The depth to GW2 is far greater.  With that comes some lag issues we’ve all succumbed to. To the point where I can say “ok, I have 3 party characters and one legendary on my team, so I can’t be a character where aim is crucial”.  The only real lag I remember from the first one is the false swallow by a chomper and you’re still alive.  I’ll gladly take that back by the way.  I’ll continue this later but this great topic just might make me late for work.

I really like Cactus Canyon myself, especially pushing the golf cart at the end as zombies. Never understood why it wasn't as well liked as some others barring that it has only 5 checkpoints compared to 6 for most and 7 for Wall-Nut Hills.

I don't see the lag that often in GW2 past that first party event when the portal kept exploding anyway! I do see the Chomper displacement bug where the Chomper burrows someone and I go to shoot them but they suddenly jump a few feet away so take no damage until this 'warp' is finished. I know it's a common issue though. 

Also as a kind of throwback EA game comment. I had Racing Destruction Set on my Commodore 64, an old EA game where you could make your own tracks, and made a narrow all ice track with a lot of jumps. It was terrible! 😃

Maps in both games have issues, however each revolve around their specific aesthetic and characters.

GW1 is the first attempt at translating the tower defense formula of PVZ into a third-person format.  Plants defend while zombies invade and try to ruin crazy dave's life;  a greater emphasis is placed around the plants protecting something rather than zombies milling about.  This aesthetic is taken into account for when engaging in Ops, Taco Bandits, and Garden/Graveyards except for team vanquish and vanquish confirmed as those are more player focused.  Most of the characters have the same jump height and obstacle placement is reflected to account for combatants to move around the field and avoid horizontal surpassing fire.  

GW2 is the second attempt and concentrates more on the actual battleground of the zombies/plants; now both plants and zombies have a chance at defending in addition to 6 new unique playable characters.  The zombies have taken control of some parts of the plant's home and an opportunity is presented to showcase that in the form of a herbal assault.  As the endless struggle between plants and zombies keeps reaching consistent stalemates, a third neutral party (Gnomes) was introduced to provide an interlude to the continual fighting.

The biggest problem in multiplayer (unsure about PVE) moreover present in GW1 is when the map remains too open and there is barely enough cover to survive suppressing fire either from a higher altitude or enemy lane tactics. Zomboss Estate can be a good example where the terrain is flat in the front and with both points(gnome bomb and suburbination) near there results in the victory for whomever controls those 2 points.  Walnut Hills last 2 points are mildly difficult for plants defending as scientists can enter dave's mansion using energy warp with no repercussions and zombies spawn closer to the 5th capture point. Jewel Junction is a pretty well-designed map, but has problems with separating fire-fights between outside and inside the house.  Sharkbite Shores has a long stretch before reaching the town where high houses provide ample cover for snipers, leaving chompers/sunflowers/engineers/all-stars pretty vulnerable.  Driftwood Shores' Marina and Castle are difficult to obtain as zombies as plants have excellent advantage in terms of setting up a defensive and engineers can be easily targeted and taken out.  Main Street's 1st and 3rd points can be hard to capture depending on where the engineer is placed and chompers have the advantage in these areas due to the buildings' many corners. Lastly, Cactus Canyon's 1st point, 5th point, and mini-game provides more opportunities for zombies to advance as the incline is close enough to the spawn allows for the just right cover to lay down suppressing fire without getting too hurt. 

Gw2's issue is the conflict between its premise and characters.  Since the zombies have control of some areas, should it not be more fortified or decrepit?  Piles of trash or ransacked houses should litter the neighborhood and some areas should still have remnants of a friendly neighborhood. With the new characters introduced, the jump heights for these characters allow them to move more freely across the battlefield, however this restricts others from forcing them out of these spots as buildings or vantage points are too close to the battleground to allow allies to effectively see and remove the scouts.  My hope is in the future that these vantage points will be taken more into consideration in relation to the battlefield and any new characters released. The battleground also takes into account the size of a seven-person team instead of only 4, which results in long periods of walking between spawn and the choke point. For maps, Time Park has issues similar to Jewel Junction in that the fire-fights are separated between the center of the park and the surrounding area.  Z-tech Factory can sometimes spawns you and allies to close to points where it may not be advantageous to contest and the middle section of the map is utilized too often for team vanquish and vanquish confirmed.  Zen Peak is generous to plants defending, but the rooftops allow soldiers and peas to easily snipe grounded units.  Lunar Landing like Time Park/Jewel Junction has the fire-fight separation problem, but now places low gravity on all characters outside of the building.  Frosty creek is easy for zombies to move through and plants can be separated very easily from one another resulting in quick team losses.  Sandy Sand is pretty fun to play in as well, though team vanquish and vanquish confirmed make it difficult to separate enemy troops from staying together especially with electric variants. Moving onto Turf takeover, while Zombopolis is pretty fair overall, the death and stun hazards in the map make it difficult to maneuver through and provide less lanes to attack from.  Zomburbia is solid as well except for the 2nd and final assault as rooftop soldiers/peas, chompers, and snipers have an easier time attacking combatants in the 2nd point than close range zombies due to the obstacle placement; the academy graduation party's gallery is usually the only spot people pick to defend. Moon Base Z's 1st and 5th point are on opposite ends of the spectrum as the 1st point is difficult for plants to obtain due to the length of the map while the 5th point is less advantageous to zombies due to the many walls and enemies attacking the point at an incline. The same can be said about Great White North, though the 3rd point is less predictable and the mini-game usually results in zombie victory. Finally, Seeds of Time has an interesting difficulty curve, which other than the 1st point, results in a difficult cart push that leads up to the castle assault where zombies will often jump into plants' spawn to gain the advantage.

Foremost, I would like to apologize for the long post, but at the same time address where I feel on certain areas.  Note that I did not mention the garden center, Frontline flats, port scallywag, and chomp town as they are pretty solid in terms of layout and help to even the odds.  For Gw1, I am more lenient to its dilemmas as they revolve around player interaction and are supposed to increase difficulty as you move from point to point.  Gw2's maps, despite the increased number of maps, I rather see less experimentation and a greater focus on balancing the battleground and decreasing the chaos that can occur outside of fight lanes as well as size.

I appreciate the long post @bobburgers6 ! It was very thoughtful and well written. I indeed felt that many maps in GW1 gave the rooftoppers (generally Pea Shooters and Foot Soldiers) and snipers (generally Cacti) advantages over the others. Rooftops give certain classes great advantages and there were a lot of them in GW1. Due to there being less of them, like your point about Zen Peak, they stand out when they are present in GW2 whereas in GW1 they were quite common. There also seems to be more cover in GW2 so it’s harder to he be sniped although it still happens of course.

Your point on Jewel Junction vs. Time Park makes sense but I feel the fact that you can’t see what’s on the other side of a portal in Time Park makes it a chore in multiplayer. Jewel Junction also had the multiple levels around the train, especially at the center whereas Time Park lacks this; each area has fixed points of entry that are easy to watch for those waiting, and turret mode is heavily used by many classes on this map. Lunar Landing has some issues thanks to the indoor/outdoor nature and the change in gravity but I’ve never had the issues I’ve had on Time Park here. This doesn’t invalidate your point but it seems less of a concern than Time Park has been.

The castle on Driftwood Shores is often a stumbling block for the zombies as you say. It’s a great area, I don’t think GW games have an area that doesn’t look good to be honest but that castle is one of my favorites. The Marina and Docks tend to be a bit rough for zombies but I would say the docks are worse than the Marina as getting a teleporter setup for the 3rd point there is really rough and the one position is barely out of LoS of that garden, along with the high positions the plants can take to snipe down on top of you while the other position is exposed to concentrated assault and has a long walk around, often under fire, if the teleporter isn’t up. The Marina does have a similar issue but it has rooftops that are easier for zombies to get to high ground while plants have the boats with Cactus parties onboard. Perhaps points 2, 3, and 4 on this map are all pretty rough? It sure feels like it at times.  

As a zombie I have often held the gallery to prevent a plant win in Zomburbia. It always seems the easiest to defend, and likely is based on placement and spawns. I may harry the plants at the library and often that one courtyard pile of TP inside the academy between the library, dining hall, and the gallery, as its so exposed and any plant using it is a sitting duck, but the gallery is indeed often the spot the zombies will try to hold if the plants push them to that point.

Thanks for your well-thought out input on the discussion!