Ice Rose
Ice Rose is pretty useless now. I made the mistake of starting to upgrade her to Max before the patch and she was pretty bad then. Since the patch though, it takes a millennia to actually freeze someo...
Forum Discussion
@Rhendyr wrote:
@AWMaxSterling wrote:
@Rhendyr wrote:
@ActiveMe4U2 wrote:
Re: Ice Rose
JamesRivera88
★★★★ NOVICE
03-13-2016 07:52 PM - edited 03-13-2016 07:54 PM
She isn't supposed to be a terror with DPS, she is a support
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I was just talking to the scientist at close range, he sends his regards...Scientist does the same dmg as Sunflower in a 10 second time period. Scientist does less dmg over a 10 minute time period. Math has been laid out in another thread for viewing.
Math is all fine and dandy if everyone hit their target 100% of the time and the targets never moved, but you'd need to land every shot with a sunflower... and nobody is capable of doing that. I'd much rather need to land 3 high damage shots than 10+ low damage shots.
That's when personal skill and preference comes into the equation, which are things that mathematically I really can't represent in the equation. There's several factors that can change things up, such as the Sunflower can start firing those shots from much further out, dealing dmg long before a person can get on top of them from a safer distance, while the Scientist has to get on top of their target to start dealing damage.
I mean, one might be able to write an algorithm to somewhat accurately represent all of these other factors, but I only got up to Calculus, Finite Mathematics, Calculus w/ Analytic Geometry and Advanced College Algebra. Might need someone with a deep background in Advanced Numerical Analysis w/ Finite Elements and/or Semidefinite Optimization.
Since my background isn't deep enough in those subjects, I wont even attempt to quantify all of the actual variables. But, I feel confident in sticking with raw DPS, showing that the sustained DPS of the Sunflower is roughly the same as the burst DPS of the Scientist over a short time, and due to the number of reload attempts, the Sunflowers sustained dmg potential is higher than that of the Scientist.
It's not so much personal skill as it is character design. The scientist is unarguably a close quarter specialist. He pretty much won't miss because he's designed to be on you, firing his wide range scatter shots. As long as he's facing you, the target is hit.
The sunflower requires more precision shooting, even standing on top of them... it's possible to miss.
I'll agree with the "cone of fire" scenario. But, there's still placement, who see's who first, if the warp ability is on cooldown and whatnot. There's a lot of factors that are really hard to quantify when you get into the entirety of the builds.
But, most aren't arguing that. Most who are attempting to argue points are saying, "x does less dmg than y! Fix it!" when in reality, their dmg is the same, or much much closer than they want to admit.
Honestly, for the Scientist vs Sunflower argument, I think Scientist's are better overall for solo Rambo'ing around the map, looking more for kills, while I firmly believe the Sunflower is the better healer (heal beam + flower). I feel, over all, a really good Sunflower means more to his team, and will help his team more than a really good Scientist.
@Rhendyr wrote:
Honestly, for the Scientist vs Sunflower argument, I think Scientist's are better overall for solo Rambo'ing around the map, looking more for kills, while I firmly believe the Sunflower is the better healer (heal beam + flower). I feel, over all, a really good Sunflower means more to his team, and will help his team more than a really good Scientist.
I'll agree that the sunflower is a better healer in a one teammate scenario and allows more mobility, but the scientists heal station is much better for healing multiple teammates at once. It can also be used to help fortify a spot.
Also, as a scientist I have no fear of going in against a plant being healed by a sunflower. In fact, I'll frequently hunt them down as scientist for two easy kills... warp in, fire 5 rounds, drop two stickies, warp out, heal.
I find that scientists overall abilities are much more useful, especially when you consider he can warp into an objective, clear it out, and provide group healing on the capture point as zombies capture. To me, that's more useful than just being a strong healer.
That all comes down to preference.
The reason I feel the Sunflower is a better team healer is because he has both the heal beam and the heal flower. It would be like the Scientist having a heal beam and his heal station. I've never been worried about diving in on anyone when they have a healer either, the healing is only effective when it turns into groups trading fire and ducking behind cover. That works better for some maps than others, and also is kind of group dependent. If you get a good group who sticks together, I feel the Sunflower will definitely shine, while a Scientist is, in my opinion better solo due to the increased mobility of the warp.
Still though, raw dmg, they are even. It comes down to other tangibles and intangibles on which is better overall, which has a lot to do with luck, player skill, player play style, map and team makeup.
the actually problem with Sunflower is that is very squishy and electro brainz are very powerful.
Scientist has a heal ball that can be thrown in the middle of fight (that heal ball is SUPER UNDERESTIMATED!!) and change the fate of a battle.
In the current state sunflower is more mean to be "i heal your injures after the fights is over"the only way he has an impact on the fight hews dealing damage with your range, but the actual fights are so rough for him that dont allow him to stay near his friends unless they protect him VERY hard.
@FrozenChromeIta wrote:
the actually problem with Sunflower is that is very squishy and electro brainz are very powerful.
Sunflower has the same health as a scientist, so technically she's no more "squishy" than him.
sorry im used to play the vampire one and i forgot.
Btw i misstyped.
Electro Brainz are PAINFUL.You get close to your team-mates and get punished a LOT for doing your job, you dont even have time to react.
And with squishy i intended a lots of things.
No escape. Needed to stick with your allies in order to be impactful, so yes CONSIDER his job he's too much squishy.
Scientist has two warps, a heal ball and a stationary one that can be thrown, consider that he's much more SAFER.
But i dont think Sunflower is UP or Scientist Op, is just the current state of things make his job harder.edit: sorry for double post. it got bugged-
Well, you can't change an entire classes balance based off of a single toon (Electro Brainz). We ALL know Electro Brainz needs his ring's splash dmg toned down, by a lot, so using that as an argument is just, meh, because that messes up every character.
Sunflower is still a better healer, with better dmg potential over the course of the game. Sunflower is better on a good team where people stick near their healer. Scientist is better on a team with little to no team work (where he runs around solo charging toons and ignoring healing).
@Rhendyr wrote:
Sunflower is still a better healer, with better dmg potential over the course of the game. Sunflower is better on a good team where people stick near their healer. Scientist is better on a team with little to no team work (where he runs around solo charging toons and ignoring healing).
That's all a matter of preference and play style. I'd also be willing to bet that damage potential is nowhere near the damage reality. I wish PopCap would post a chart which would compare the scientist and sunflower and show total damage, total kills, and overall hit percentage. That way we can actually see the disparity between the two characters.
@AWMaxSterling wrote:
@Rhendyr wrote:
Sunflower is still a better healer, with better dmg potential over the course of the game. Sunflower is better on a good team where people stick near their healer. Scientist is better on a team with little to no team work (where he runs around solo charging toons and ignoring healing).
That's all a matter of preference and play style. I'd also be willing to bet that damage potential is nowhere near the damage reality. I wish PopCap would post a chart which would compare the scientist and sunflower and show total damage, total kills, and overall hit percentage. That way we can actually see the disparity between the two characters.
I would want them to also post the amount of healing they both did and the number of people revived.
The reason being is simple, people play them differently. Scientist players often set out more for kills and being on the offensive, trying to use Scientist as a primary dmg dealer, while most Sunflowers set out to use the flower more as a healer and reviver, while dealing dmg as an after thought. That, also, comes down to play style (and the warp).
@Rhendyr wrote:
@AWMaxSterling wrote:
@Rhendyr wrote:
Sunflower is still a better healer, with better dmg potential over the course of the game. Sunflower is better on a good team where people stick near their healer. Scientist is better on a team with little to no team work (where he runs around solo charging toons and ignoring healing).
That's all a matter of preference and play style. I'd also be willing to bet that damage potential is nowhere near the damage reality. I wish PopCap would post a chart which would compare the scientist and sunflower and show total damage, total kills, and overall hit percentage. That way we can actually see the disparity between the two characters.
I would want them to also post the amount of healing they both did and the number of people revived.
The reason being is simple, people play them differently. Scientist players often set out more for kills and being on the offensive, trying to use Scientist as a primary dmg dealer, while most Sunflowers set out to use the flower more as a healer and reviver, while dealing dmg as an after thought. That, also, comes down to play style (and the warp).
The one possible issue with Scientists not seemingly healing as much is probably because of their speed. Often times after capturing an objective, I'll see a group of zombies in need of healing, but don't want to waste a warp to get ahead of them to drop a heal station. It's difficult to get ahead of the pack to drop the heal station when you move as fast as the pack.
I went with the heal beam, cuz I focus more on healing others. Often times, people don't seem to want to sit still long enough to use the station. It was frustrating, as I went with the station a lot early on, but seemed to be using it more for just myself than others.
I agree. The scientists have a harder time with healing... and that may not be because they're not team players, but because the zombies, in general, aren't team players. The challenges for scientists healing multiple teammates were often the most difficult for me. If you didn't place the heal station directly in front of them, zombies generally won't heal themself or just don't notice/care to notice.
Ice Rose's uncharged shots tickle imps and are actually too slow to keep up with them and its harder for her to freeze now. The only grief I had with her prepatch is the damage from a fully charged shot. It was too high for something that could splash for the same damage, one shot imps and she could charge up the same shot and hit you again before you unfreeze.
I would give back her instant freeze on fully charged shot and make her damage 40-45. Her uncharged shots need some speed as well.
Agreed she should be the best CC variant, but her freeze is lacking. Why even have an Ice Rose variant if a charged shot can't freeze anything?
I like how her freeze gets nerfed yet AC Perry can freeze you near instantly. Both are supposed to be the same support class as well.
She still better than chompers....RIP Chompers.....
