Community Admin.... Further thought process:
now the zombies will have a superior teamplay character (Space Station) plus a Mech?
Guess I’m missing the logic?
@spIash_damage
A solo space station is nowhere near the power level of a solo oak. Thats the whole reason they are nerfing oak to begin with. At the moment its always better to have 4 oaks than it is to have 1 oak with 3 acorns in it because oaks are too powerful by themselves. A solo space station feels pretty bad to play in comparison. This actually brings oak more in line with the space station more than anything.
What i dont understand is why we are buffing foot soldier damage but not corn damage when they both fill the same role. I would understand if corn was the only one getting the fire rate increase while soldier only got the damage as they would equal out. Unfortunately thats not the case. So soldiers getting 2 buffs to his primary while corn gets 1 when they both do the same damage and fill the same role.
@RockScorpion384 wrote:@spIash_damage
A solo space station is nowhere near the power level of a solo oak. Thats the whole reason they are nerfing oak to begin with. At the moment its always better to have 4 oaks than it is to have 1 oak with 3 acorns in it because oaks are too powerful by themselves. A solo space station feels pretty bad to play in comparison. This actually brings oak more in line with the space station more than anything.
What i dont understand is why we are buffing foot soldier damage but not corn damage when they both fill the same role. I would understand if corn was the only one getting the fire rate increase while soldier only got the damage as they would equal out. Unfortunately thats not the case. So soldiers getting 2 buffs to his primary while corn gets 1 when they both do the same damage and fill the same role.
So we’ll pretend Mechs aren’t around?
I still don’t get the logic.
@spIash_damage
What do mechs have to do with space station and oak? Thats a completely other character that doesnt play a part in balancing the game. You cant just make space station weaker because of the fact that maybe the zombies will have a mech sometimes 🤷🏼♂️
Its not like the fact that the zombies have both mechs and space station is making them too overpowered anyway. Its exactly the opposite atm. Plants are dominating the game and its the zombies that are falling behind. So how much impact is having that mech actually doing for them?
@RockScorpion384 wrote:
@spIash_damage
What do mechs have to do with space station and oak? Thats a completely other character that doesnt play a part in balancing the game. You cant just make space station weaker because of the fact that maybe the zombies will have a mech sometimes 🤷🏼♂️
Really - Mechs just don't count toward balancing?
Word. We should employ 5 - 6 more characters on the zombies team with 250+ health to really make things interesting! Besides - it wouldn't bother Oak and Space Station.
You're right, buddy. My bad.
@RockScorpion384 wrote:
@spIash_damage
Youre failing to mention:
1. Solo oak is better than solo station as ive already mentioned. The fact that its better to run multiple oaks rather than a single oak with multiple acorns should tell you that oak by himself is too good. In comparison a full space station is godlike but a solo one is ez kill, just like how a multi-player class should be. Weak when solo, strong when together.
2. Mechs are apart of another class which shouldnt impede on the balance of other classes. If sunflower+Peashooter was a really strong synergy, for example, they wouldnt just nerf the sunflowers healing rate to fix it. That would make sunflower overall worse. Sure they could make specific changes to that pairing like not bein able to heal pea gatling but that doesnt effect her power level with anyone else. You cant just balance characters because of their potential with certain other characters. Otherwise without those certain characters they would be useless.
3. Mechs are an ability that can be used every 2 minutes for 20-30 seconds before going on cd again. While station and oak have no cd’s. So you cant compare oak/station to mech in the first place
4. Plants dont have a mech sure, but they also have classes that the zombies dont have. Zombies dont get a stealth hero for example 🤷🏼♂️
Only people complaining about oak nerfs are the oak exploiters exactly like the nightcap players.
So you're insinuating I'm complaining?
https://answers.ea.com/t5/General-Discussion/Buffs-Before-Nerfs/td-p/8187603/
I've thought (over a week now with even @Iron_Guard8 agreeing in that thread) buffs should be applied before nerfs altogether.
I try to give constructive input and not complain.
Are you on PS4? I'd love to game with you sometime.
@spIash_damageBuffs ARE being applied first the only 2 nerfs are for the extreme outlier classes that are clearly broken and wouldnt matter how many buffs you did to others, they would still be broken.
Oak doesnt fulfill his role as a multi-player class as he is so strong by himself theres no point. Buffing other characters wont weaken this fact. Sure a damage increase to others make oak easier/faster to kill but it doesnt solve the issue in that its always better to solo oak than jump into an oak as acorn.
As for nightcap, you could make every zombies 1 shot her and it wouldnt fix her problems. Fung fu is too much damage for so little skill. It doesnt matter what buffs you do fung fu would still be broken. Unless you buffed every zombie to 500hp so they dont instantly die thats the only solution that would make her balanced. It needed to be toned down no matter what buffs they did.
Also i never said u were a exploiter, i said all the people mad that these nerfs are happening are. Xbox 😔
@spIash_damage Indeed I agree with buffs over nerfs. However, as someone who works with other local amateur board game designers, both to test my own designs and theirs, the goal of balance is to find the baseline and then adjust everyone up or down to that level. If you have a game like Cthulhu Wars with asymmetrical factions, and one faction wins 66% of their games, one wins 34% of their games, and one wins 52% of their games, and the target is 50%, the first one is too good and needs to be brought down, the second is too low and needs to be brought up, the third, being only 2% of the desired target stays where it is. The people that loved the first faction may be unhappy with the changes to bring them in line, but it's for the overall good of the game.
I wanted to note to that often when Paladins (and I think Overwatch did this too, but they've added 3 characters since I played), new champions are often OP and then are brought down later as they want people to play them, and if they're weak, people generally won't so there's no data on their performance. Occasionally they miss that marker and need to buff instead, and often after nerfing they have to buff back up a little, but that's the general pattern.
Now I don't know what the baseline is here, I'm guessing that Peashooter is pretty close, but I'm not PopCap so can't say and my data is all anecdotal, but for the sake of argument, let's say the Peashooter is at the optimal balance point and everyone else needs to be near that point. If we give Peashooter a value of 5, we need everyone else to be, say 4.8-5.2 as that would be a good target range to go with. We want everything to be at 5.0 in this case, but that's really hard to do when characters are so different.
@RockScorpion384 Just let me know when you finish editing your posts and I’ll reply. Or better yet, when you add sentences/paragraphs, add them at the bottom of your post with an edit tag?
I’m curious if @ToastedSarnie @Iron_Guard8 or anyone else on this thread are max rank yet? How is everyone weighing in on balance without max ranked characters?! Let me rephrase... how do you know what needs to be balanced when you haven’t unlocked the best upgrades for most characters?
I have been for almost a week now and even I’m hesitant to speak on balancing much less insinuate other people have no skill by using certain characters.
The fact is I SLAUGHTERED Nightcaps from the beginning. I do not play her but had no problem with her and believe she will be nerfed to the ground. As she stands right now, she is by far the easiest frag in the history of the series.
Oak will not be weaker just harder to transform. ...how does the talk of solo Oak strength relate to his transform channeling duration and treeject? The Sap dumb-down might change the way it’s used.... However, I think Space Station should be the same with transformation or be nerfed as the 700 hit points plus shielding is absurd.
To say anything further is beating a dead horse.
Buffs before nerfs did NOT happen. Simultaneous buffs and nerfs did. I disagree with that as someone who has been an active part of this community for years and have my characters maxed. It’s okay to disagree.
Hope this clears things up. I’m truly done with this thread.
While Splash said he was done here, I wanted to add that indeed, the station needs a look, I posted about how much health we had in an earlier reply to Rock about having over 700 health with shields and overheal with 4 of us aboard.
Also, while they have to take max level into account, and I know what the upgrades do as I linked that Reddit post that had them all and saw that video with the Citron using the 2 that make the navel laser wider, always crit, and then vanquishes make it last longer, and it's insane. They can't just balance for that though, and as time goes on, more and more people will max rank more characters and they can see how the situation will change.
If they overnerfed Nightcap, they're going to have to fix her, no character should be useless or ludicrously good. Only playing with the changes, before and against all the changes coming up, will truly let us know how well they did. And I'm sure we're all aware that balance was never the best part of either GW game, so I understand misgivings about such changes.
And again for Splash, even if you are ignoring this thread now (and I'm not tagging you directly so it won't notify you so you can ignore this if you prefer), you are correct, we can agree to disagree and for you and me that's rare and I do respect where you are coming from. I'm not exactly singing the praises of nerfs, I just want everything to be as balanced as possible and only those who can see all the data can truly judge that (i.e. not us as our own experiences are largely anecdotal). We do need to give them our input as always, to make the game better, just like we did for GW2. And I especially value your input Splash.
I'm pretty decent at dealing with Night Caps these days, although some of my teammates, oof. Last night a Nightcap took out 3 Deadbeards with one Fung Fu and I used rocket ride to take her out and then proceeded to revive them all XD.
We’re going to have to just wait and see how this all plays out. Small adjustments at a time and hopefully more updates monthly. Try to do too much at once and we could be taking two steps back.
Acknowledging how the changes effect both new players and max ranks is a must. It’s a fine line indeed. Someone should not be able to roll in day one and steam roll. Yes skill is certainly a factor.
At this point things are already set up and we will have to just wait and see how it turns out.
The nerf to NC was needed and acorn/oak needed a cool down added. The changes they are going to make sound great!
