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stukapooka's avatar
5 years ago

Pot defenders in ops and turf: a comparison

If in the small chance a new shooter were ever made ( probably not but a guy can dream right?) the first thing I hope they reflect on for ops to correct isn't base position, it should be the pots and bots and how pathetic they were in BFN.

Going back to the garden warfare games the pots were undoubtedly more effective for 2 simple reasons: positioning and the enemy they faced.

In gw1 the pots had a lot more options to defend with being pea cannons and repeaters to eliminate browncoats in open areas with splash damage from range.

pea gatling could target one opponent and constantly stutter the zombie walking towards it in bursts but was less effective against more armored and numerous opponents.

Fire and ice peas were able to apply status effects from range and had a better chance at stopping hero classes with freezing/burning them for another pot/player to finish them off.

ice shroom could stop eneimies in one blast but had to be closer, putting itself in greater risk of retaliation.

snapdragon could emgulf a group in flames at close range but like ice shroom lacked the means to defend itself at range.

bonk choy was able to annihilate oppnents by surpassing their armor and dealing 150 total damage but lacked the range to fight off zombie heroes.

doom shroom anihilated all who got close but was vulnerable upon recharging.

laser bean couldn't deal splash damage but had the power to precisely shoot multiple opponents.

heal flowers could support players but lacked any means to protect themselves.

goop shrooms lacked damage but could slow the horde for others to fight.

fume shroom could penetrate armor but had more range than Bonk Choy.

Scaredy shrooms could snipe enemies from a distance with precision but were vulnerable up close and needed support from allies.

Bamboo shoots could call artillery strikes but would have to remove these strikes from the frontline if it was in danger.

Positioning in gw1 ops: pots were more numerous and could fire in multiple directions through openings in the environment to protect allies or the garden and were even capable of firing into the evacuation zone if positioned closely. 

Enemies: pots can dispatch enemy browncoats with ease but hero classes are their kryptonite with ranged that hit hard such as the concrete launcher with the engie stun, soldier's gas and zpg easily killimg them, scientist teleporting and high damage up close, and all star just being a tank man. Knowing this players must protect pots from enemy classes while the ai deal with zombie going straight for the base.

Another feature exclusive to gw1 ops was that you could see the damage numbers the bots were dealing allowing players to better know which areas to prioritize defending when the numbers started flying.

Pots in G&G: in the garden pots had more strain with fighting player zombies who still had to be more careful due to half regeneration limits and pots like bonk choy and doom shroom being able to punish them for being careless around corners at the ending minigame where ai zombies are thin/nonexistent due to the outlying defenses all but wiping them out.

Gw2 Ops: less overall plant options due to the new zombie bots which worked slightly differently from their counterparts and plants like Bonk Choy were nerfed into the ground but they could still cover each other and you could rely on them to kill basic zombies and weaken heroes in the waves.

Gw2 turf: pots are closer to the garden with a few solo stragglers but can still fire into different areas to harass zombies/weeds but they are absent in the final objective outside of Walnut Hills.

Solo play: ai are spawned by whichever team the player is not on, probably the devs thinking that an actual player required more defenses against when it reality it just makes attacking more of a chore for the bots.

Flag of power and boss hunts: they defend the objective and aid players but most likely wont make it through the fight even when supported.

Bfn ops: pots are undoubtedly at their worst here. The new tv heads and wildflowers can easuly butcher them from afar and with less zombie spawnables in the game they are constantly going against armored opponents who steamroll them alongside hero classes helping them in the first wave to easily kill them with abilities.

Overheal doesnt really help the pots as they still die relatively fast against opponents.

With the cool down system players are also stuck with weak pea cannons that die in a few shots/bites from an ai zombie.

Elite boss waves: the pots just die simple as that due to the sometimes invincible boss and rapidly respawning ai the pots will quickly be overruned in seconds.

Bfn turf: the pots cant really cover each other due to map design and are easily wiped out by the standard buckethead due to being seperated and alone from other pots and players while pitifully trying to cover flanks but I am glad they have returned in final objectives even if they practically worthless due to players easily killing them from afar.

Solo play: rather than have both sides finally spawn in their armies to fight and die against each neither team even bothers allowing whichever team the player is on to have an advantage by just summoning more. And more heavily armored minions to overwhelm the bot teams essentially making the game easier.

After playing ops and turf in every game you notice just how less effective and numerous they got in each game going from being able to take out starting waves in gw1&2 with minimal losses free of player intervention while in bfn starting waves they are quickly killed by heroes and armored zombies that quickly destroy upclose or at range.

Tldr: pots have gotten weaker because they're seperated and alone by map design and are up against much tougher opponent who easily steamroll and theyve gone from capable backup allies to stormtrooper level of  competence ready bodybags.

If another shooter was made I hope they make these little fellas reliable again and could even make a little minigame with them for pvz 1 like bfn title screen intro (even though they are still pathetic there).

Also bring back the voice saying the zombies are coming.

Make Pots and Bots great again!

4 Replies

  • I really want a new shooter! It feels weird for the first time since 2014 to not have something new going on in at least one of the PvZ shooters (grinding out the GM levels in BfN and questing in GW2 after being capped out there for years isn't as satisfying as brand new stuff to do), and there's definitely an audience for a new game!

    I'll be honest; TV Heads and Wildflowers should be removed from the new game. It's weird seeing myself ask for them to remove something instead of add but you're right, @stukapooka , they butcher the immobile pots/bots, are annoying to play against (especially with that attack that knocks people around), and the player versions feel like filler. It'd be no great loss to get rid of them. 

    I largely agree with what you post here, so I'll just touch on a few points.

    GW1 pots died way too easily. I have a ton of them thanks to the sticker pack system in GW1 but you needed a ton as even glued to one of them as a Sunflower, they could go down too fast. It had the best variety in terms of options though.

    GW2 the pots/bots were decent and more survivable but we need more options (I had addressed this some in my now old post about things for the next shooter). Bring back all the pots and bots from the current games, and add more (this applies to weeds and browncoats too, get rid of the  TV Heads and Wildflowers though of course).

    I'd not mind Overheal going away. Healing is so good in BfN that it alters the flow of play and makes escaping too easy which is why so many left in frustration over the change in tempo and TTK. The decay they added to Overheal hurt the summonables badly, although it was needed for players.

    Combining bots/pots/weeds/browncoats for the discussion; I don't actually mind the timer system in BfN; it prevents people from spamming Coffin Zombies and other heavies like you see in GW1 and 2. My idea for the new game would be that everyone would get the basic ones (Doctor Heals, Heal Flower, Bonk Choy, Boxer Bot, Gatling Bot, RePeater, Rocket Bot, Peashooter, Browncoat, Conehead, Buckethead, Weed, Pumpkin head weed, terracotta weed, imp, and dandelion), and you would unlock others via the free roam zones and Rux (Rux would be coins only, no rainbow stars), all would have timers with this system. Alternatively, we would return to the consumable system from GW1 and 2 but you'd still unlock some stuff via Rux and the free roam zones, and less randomness in what you get; make the better ones cost more than the weaker ones in such a case.

    Pot and Bot positions should be better placed to support what they're supposed to be defending and to help each other out as you say. I would say they should have the GW2 level of power with some adjustments so the melee ones (Bonk Choy and Boxer Bot) are more useful.

    Also, bring back teleporters and the defenses that Roses and Engineers can place to defend them in TT!

  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    5 years ago

    @Iron_Guard8Gw1 pots were weak healthwise but due to better positioning and more numerous planting areas (and a few strong ones like bamboo shoot or Bonk Choy) and no tv heads they stood a better chance at defending the garden as they could fend off entire waves of browncoats to bucketheads with minimal losses like in gw2 while in later waves zombie classes were easily able to counter and kill them with abilities as stink cloud sealing a pots death unlike bfn where the breakneck pace causes the pots to fight soldiers, tv heads, and imps at the same time causing them all to die horribly on the first wave (say goodbye to your non pea cannon pots) even if overhealed.

    I think the natural dirt/pot timers are already enough of a cool down for the ai and I hope they dont keep the timer system in ops as it ruined a creative defense of multiple pots working in unison and became pea cannon simulator.

    Bfn zombie spawnables have the problem of pretty much being coffin zombies spam due to how much many seem to be armored in game alongside a total of 12 players spawning in toilet zombies that use their laser way too frequently (remember when bonk choy could wreck this guy with ease).

  • I had this idea where you could level up potted plants so they could be more powerful as well as have certain upgrades, new abilities, perks to you, and even cosmetics. Like a Peashooter could level up to a Repeater and give yourself an upgrade that increases you fire rate for your character. It's a bit complicated, but I also want to see more versatility with the things.
  • TheSprinter85's avatar
    TheSprinter85
    Hero
    5 years ago

    I most certainly agree with others when they say that Pots, Bots and Summonables are really weak in BFN (the choices of what can be placed are really quite limited as well). I do like the system of placement though, where no money needs to be spent (but they have a cooldown). I still use Pots, Bots and Summonables quite often and have learnt to place them nice and quickly (I can quickly access specific Pots, Bots and Summonables when wanted or needed). I do agree that these things do need more love (Pots, Bots and Summonables). If they were even more effective, more players would use them.

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