Re: Maps too cramped and cluttered

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@B0RiS_THE_FR0G wrote:

What EA and Popcap tend to forget is that, due to it's cutesy nature, the game should be designed to appeal to players of all ages, but in it's present condition I really can't see many of the younger community seeing this one out for too long - it really is that user-unfriendly to get to grips with.

I have two kids (8 and 10) who, like myself, absolutely loved the first PvZ so the £54 investment for the family sharing digital option did seem to be a bit of a no brainer when considering our next batch of entertainment. Although I've kinda stuck it out hoping it will win me over my kids haven't exactly been as endearing to it all and I guess after countless online 'walk 50 yards....get killed by unseen foe...walk 50 yards...get killed by unseen foe' (and so on and so on) scenarios they gave up on the whole affair and went back to playing the original.

The great thing about the prequel was it didn't matter how bad you were, it didn't matter that you didn't have eyes like a hawk and it didn't matter that you didn't have reflexes that were measured in milliseconds because the main thing was, no matter how you chose to play, you always felt that you were going to get from A-B and have fun doing so. The pace of the game, the balance of the game, in fact the whole design of the game just oozed appeal and despite its glitz & glamour PvZ2 doesn't even come close to reaching the standard of it's predecessor.

  

Just my opinion - for what it's worth.

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That is exactly what I am talking about. They are gearing the game a lot more towards the regular and core shooting players and did forget why people loved the first game in the first place. It plays very different online compared to the original. And unfortunately not better. You can notice this in garden ops as well which has gotten a lot harder. The normal mode now has the difficulty of the old hard mode. 

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@TelerickIC wrote:

That is exactly what I am talking about. They are gearing the game a lot more towards the regular and core shooting players and did forget why people loved the first game in the first place. It plays very different online compared to the original. And unfortunately not better. You can notice this in garden ops as well which has gotten a lot harder. The normal mode now has the difficulty of the old hard mode. 

No it doesn't. You probably just haven't gotten a proper feel to it yet because Normal Mode Garden Ops are easy. And no matter what way you look at it, Garden Ops wasn't the focus of this game. It's not gonna be the thing that makes you decide to buy the game. The main focus was obviously the multiplayer (and you aren't even getting a proper feel of that either because of all these Rose shenanigans) and on expanding the single player content. And having spent ages collecting Gnomes I can easily say -they did real good on the single player. The Backyard Battleground has a lot more to it then what you'd think. Like if you spend too much time in it, heroes and bosses just start spawning and- I'm getting off track. The original point of this comment was that Garden Ops hasn't gotten a lot harder. And personally I think this game is better than the original.

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@TelerickIC wrote:

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That is exactly what I am talking about. They are gearing the game a lot more towards the regular and core shooting players and did forget why people loved the first game in the first place. It plays very different online compared to the original. And unfortunately not better. You can notice this in garden ops as well which has gotten a lot harder. The normal mode now has the difficulty of the old hard mode. 

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You seriously think that normal ops is hard? Have you even played the game?

i must be some sort of super amazing pro league gamer then.. Every time I play ops for the quests it's on hard or crazy for the extra money.. Maybe you're just really bad. 

I didn't say the Single player was the main focus. I said the main focus of the game was on the Multiplayer and expanding the Single player, which it was. And I'll stop talking about the Single player after saying one last thing: The reward is worth the exploration. And again, Garden Ops isn't any harder. Maybe you're really bad at the game, or maybe you're getting unlucky with slots or team members; but Garden Ops is easy. Admittedly it becomes a slight challenge on Hard and Crazy, but on Normal and Easy it's no problem at all.

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@TelerickIC wrote:
... And I love this one too. But it is just noticable that they are gearing it towards a bit of a different audience. This is not necessairily a bad thing but might dissapoint fans of the first game.

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Exactly how I feel.  As one poster said, the multiplayer has more of a CoD feel to it.  However, a bit off topic, I really like the split screen options as it lets me play the different game modes with my kids.

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@ShadowRosalina wrote:

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No it doesn't. You probably just haven't gotten a proper feel to it yet because Normal Mode Garden Ops are easy. And no matter what way you look at it, Garden Ops wasn't the focus of this game. It's not gonna be the thing that makes you decide to buy the game. The main focus was obviously the multiplayer (and you aren't even getting a proper feel of that either because of all these Rose shenanigans) and on expanding the single player content. And having spent ages collecting Gnomes I can easily say -they did real good on the single player. The Backyard Battleground has a lot more to it then what you'd think. Like if you spend too much time in it, heroes and bosses just start spawning and- I'm getting off track. The original point of this comment was that Garden Ops hasn't gotten a lot harder. And personally I think this game is better than the original.

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Sorry but I spent the best part of 40 hours trying to get a "proper feel" towards these maps and the more I played the more I realised that this simply wasn't going to happen.

Ask yourself a question; How many times have you played in an online lobby and been shot by someone you simply cannot identify onscreen because there are so many bits of moving scenery or so many nooks and crannies that could be hiding that person?  By the time you *think* you've fathomed out where the shooting is coming from you're either dead, almost dead or resigned to the fact that whichever way you run something else will probably finish you off so there's actually little point in making the effort to do something about it. The main problem is (and this has been mentioned before) is that the characters blend in way to easily with the scenery, more often than not making detection virtually impossible - irrespective of what side you're on or which character you've chosen. To make matters worse, half the time the 'kill cam' doesn't actually show you who killed you (or rather where that person happened to be hiding), instead choosing to zoom in on an empty piece of map, so there's not even an opportunity to avoid the same fate (or go seek retribution) next time around!

Even the onscreen level up (where the screen fills with yellow stardust) is a problem - especially in the heat of battle - because it's just another thing that affects your field of vision.

Or ask yourself another question; How many times have you gone into a melee in gardens and graveyards (you know, when the clock is about to hit zero and world war III is happening on the garden) and started shooting at anything and everything that moves? Not because you're shooting blind but purely and simply because the screen is so full of clutter that you have absolutely no idea who you're shooting at, instead just hoping that you hit someone who either starts to spew out energy loss numbers before your ammo runs out or hope that the 'someone'  (who you did stumble upon in amongst the carnage and who is also spraying and praying) just happens to die before you... This isn't an occasional thing, it's fixed and permanent and destroys the fluidity of the game. If 'run, spray, maybe die' is your thing then I really do stand corrected but I prefer something a little bit more satisfying than that.

There's one part of the G&G that i'd like to give a particular mention to - and that's the bit where the endgame is the entire lobby rolling big balls around in an arena to try and score points by presumably rolling these balls somewhere in particular (I can't really help here because normally I just sit behind an object and wait til its over). The chaos that is happening onscreen is absolutely shocking and I absolutely defy anyone who says that is triple A entertainment because it most definitely is not. It's neither fun, skilful or entertaining to watch.

Don't get me wrong, Popcap have made some outstanding and diverse looking maps but no matter how you look at it and no matter weather you're playing in an online fracas or slogging it out in garden ops they are simply not designed well enough for the purpose they were intended and from what I understand this observation isn't a recent thing. So ok, we're all stuck with it and have to make the best of things - which is quite a shame really because I wanted PVZ2 to become a permanent fixture on my Xbox instead of just the occasional quick fix which it looks like it's going to be.

Those are actual issues you've run into? I've not had that happen. Besides the fact that I find it fairly easy (most of the time) to see anyone who's shooting at me, I don't think they blend in with the surroundings to the map. Most of the characters have fairly noticeable color schemes that stand out compared to the surrounding areas. And I don't know what you're talking about with the kill cam, I've used the kill cam to get my revenge multiple times. It gives you enough scenery to reveal where they were if you couldn't already see them. And even if it was hard to see them the detection system currently implemented in the game points out exactly where anyone who takes a shot is. If you don't like the little bits and pieces here, shoot them. Most of it's destructible.

And I very rarely have that issue where I've "started shooting at anything and everything that moves". I don't know, maybe this is a me thing but I find it really easy to keep up with what's going on on the screen. Admittedly it can get a bit confusing when there are more than one impkata's going off but besides that, I'm generally pretty alright. The bit in Moon Base Z with the space soccer balls again I find it pretty easy to track what's going on on screen. It's especially easy to track because it's usually all the same: the plants guiding a train of space soccer balls diagonally across the map with zombies attacking them from all sides trying to stop or delay them however possible, and then getting destroyed by Roses.

"The chaos that is happening onscreen is absolutely shocking and I absolutely defy anyone who says that is triple A entertainment because it most definitely is not. It's neither fun, skilful or entertaining to watch." Are you really that bad at tracking multiple things going on on the screen at once? That sounded more insult-y then I meant it to be. I've always found it super easy to keep track of what's happening. Most of the people I play games with are the same way as well so I assumed it was universal thing in gamers. Guess not.

And if that's your opinion of the game well I'm sorry I guess? It's a fun game, and easily better than the first.

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@TelerickIC wrote:
Pretty much every mp match I play I finish among the top 3 players. Not using Rose. No I am def. not bad at the game. Furthermore I actually test games for a living as I am a games journalist full time and played this game at E3 and previous play testing events even before the beta. And part 1 is by far my most played game this gen. And I love this one too. But it is just noticable that they are gearing it towards a bit of a different audience. This is not necessairily a bad thing but might dissapoint fans of the first game.

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Me too! I work for IGN I give this game 10/10. Best game ever

im also a cop on the weekends. 

I agree with most of what Boris has to say. The way I would describe this game is chaotic, but not in a fun way. I find this especially in the turf takeover maps. It isn't even just the map design. Everything about the game feels busier than the first. There are enemy icons all over the place, more particle effects, the lighting and map design seems  to make it a lot harder to make out other characters. From the comments I have read it sounds like they also took out some of the things that helped you know what was going on like audio for hits and healing.

Turf Takeover in this game feels more chaotic and less strategic—for many different reasons, I think. That is the multiplayer mode I played most because I really like Gardens and Graveyards in the first one. So far this game is not as much fun. I really like certain things about it, even the map designs, but it needs some tweaking to capture the feel of the first one. I want the game to move forward, but I don't want it to lose the parts about it that made it what it was. Right now GW2 feels like it has lost some of those essential parts that made the first game great—for me anyway.

OP got it exactly right.  The first PvZ:GW felt more... intimate.  This one feels more chaotic and you have less control and impact on the match.

Now in multiplayer, you can get quickly mowed down when you barely leave the cover of your spawn area.  In the first GW in GvG mode, you have to travel across the map quite a ways to find the action.  The map felt larger and positioning felt more strategic.  Encounters with enemies were often 1 on 1 and were intimate battles of skill, who had the better aim scoring the headshots? who had the better strategy?  It was easier to sneak up on people and catch them completely off guard by going the long way around.  I used to love playing Chomper and baiting an Engineer on a jackhammer around a corner to catch him in a spikeweed to eat him.  If an encounter wasn't 1 on 1, this meant that you were fighting for a strategic position such as the teleporter, or the garden.  In this one you seem to die a lot faster.  This game it feels like you are getting shot from multiple angles at once way more often.

Don't get me wrong, I think GW2 is a better game overall.  I love the experience system, the "backyard", the fact that you can defend in GvG mode as a zombie, and play vs. the AI as a zombie, but when it comes down to the multiplayer PVP experience... the first one had a better feel.  Hopefully an update can help.