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megraam's avatar
megraam
9 years ago
Solved

RNG-based block is a BAD design which should be reworked

Everything about this game design is bad: both 1 or 2 or 3 segments RNG block (damage negation) and 4 superpowers. It's easy: human nature is we remember our bad luck rather than good luck: and out...
  • megraam's avatar
    megraam
    9 years ago

    And this is what I have addressed in the OP from the very beginning. People tend to remember their losses based on random luck of their opponents or unluck of themselves much more than their wins based on the reverse outcome.

    It means if it's truly random and evens itself out you will have pissed off players from plants and pissed off players from zombies.

Gabochido's avatar
Gabochido
Seasoned Veteran
9 years ago
@Viiksisika wrote:

Thanks for pointing out the Mabinogi Duel, I'll certainly try it out! Can you also link the Roosewater article as I didnt find it. 🙂 Maybe I should read it first before I comment more on this matter.

Here is one of them: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/kind-acts-randomness-2009-05-04

This paragraph is particularly relevant to the discussion at hand:

[Randomness] allows players to react. One of the biggest arguments against randomness is that it takes away from skill, the idea being that having everything under your control rewards the better players. Turns out it doesn’t quite work that way. Let me explain. Random events happening in a game force players to do several things. One, they have to identify what is happening and what it means to the current game; two, they have to deduce how best to use the new variable to bend the game to their favor; and three, they have to maximize their other resources to take advantage of the new variable. It turns out that doing all this is pretty complicated and thus the more experienced players are much better at it. The more unpredictable, unknown variables that get added to a game, the more opportunity there is for the better player to take advantage of them. This is one of the major reasons, for example, that experienced Magic players have such an advantage in Draft formats. It turns out that the ability to react requires a lot of skill.

megraam's avatar
megraam
9 years ago

You understand the difference between card drawing randomness and "choose one out of 3 at random" doubled? As in 1-2-3 segments and get one of 3 superpowers left when you block?

  • Gabochido's avatar
    Gabochido
    Seasoned Veteran
    9 years ago
    @megraam wrote:

    You understand the difference between card drawing randomness and "choose one out of 3 at random" doubled? As in 1-2-3 segments and get one of 3 superpowers left when you block?

    Yes I do, very well, as it's part of my job 🙂 In addition, I do believe I explained the similarities and differences between the two game elements in my earlier posts.

  • megraam's avatar
    megraam
    9 years ago
    @Gabochido wrote:
    @megraam wrote:

    You understand the difference between card drawing randomness and "choose one out of 3 at random" doubled? As in 1-2-3 segments and get one of 3 superpowers left when you block?

    Yes I do, very well, as it's part of my job 🙂 In addition, I do believe I explained the similarities and differences between the two game elements in my earlier posts.

    Then it should be obvious to you mtg article above isn't about the randomness of the block of pvzh at all. I don't mind the card randomness, and in these terms pvzh beats HS and mtg by consistency (however it completely screws up sparks farming) but the block mechanic is just plain awful and actually uncontrollable to an adequate extent.

  • Gabochido's avatar
    Gabochido
    Seasoned Veteran
    9 years ago
    @megraam wrote:
    Then it should be obvious to you mtg article above isn't about the randomness of the block of pvzh at all. 

    Seems to me you didn't understand the article yourself 😉

  • megraam's avatar
    megraam
    9 years ago
    @Gabochido wrote:
    @megraam wrote:
    Then it should be obvious to you mtg article above isn't about the randomness of the block of pvzh at all. 

    Seems to me you didn't understand the article yourself 😉

    Such well reasoned and argumented point of view, wow.

  • Gabochido's avatar
    Gabochido
    Seasoned Veteran
    9 years ago
    @megraam wrote:
    @Gabochido wrote:
    @megraam wrote:
    Then it should be obvious to you mtg article above isn't about the randomness of the block of pvzh at all. 

    Seems to me you didn't understand the article yourself 😉

    Such well reasoned and argumented point of view, wow.

    You have to fight fire with fire, your arguments are usually just as reasonable 😉, though you like to dial the obnoxiousness dial up a bit more and I'd rather not go there. I mean, I've already repeatedly explained just how this particular gameplay element allows control from a skilled player while at the same time generating exciting outcomes and how that makes for a well designed and enjoyable addition to the game. If you can't understand that, I can't help you much more.

  • megraam's avatar
    megraam
    9 years ago
    @Gabochido wrote:
    @megraam wrote:
    @Gabochido wrote:
    @megraam wrote:
    Then it should be obvious to you mtg article above isn't about the randomness of the block of pvzh at all. 

    Seems to me you didn't understand the article yourself 😉

    Such well reasoned and argumented point of view, wow.

    You have to fight fire with fire, your arguments are usually just as reasonable 😉, though you like to dial the obnoxiousness dial up a bit more and I'd rather not go there. I mean, I've already repeatedly explained just how this particular gameplay element allows control from a skilled player while at the same time generating exciting outcomes and how that makes for a well designed and enjoyable addition to the game. If you can't understand that, I can't help you much more.

    Too bad the gameplay the article is about and gameplay of block mechanic in pvzh aren't the same at all. Also would you please stop with ad hominem and NO U "arguments"? 

  • Gabochido's avatar
    Gabochido
    Seasoned Veteran
    9 years ago
    @megraam wrote:
    Too bad the gameplay the article is about and gameplay of block mechanic in pvzh aren't the same at all. 

    It is exactly the same. It is a gameplay element that affects the game. It gives an upside, it is controllable, It gives surprises, it allows players to play differently, it creates design space, it allows players to react. These are the exact things that MR talks about. It also has, admittedly, some of the downsides, but then every gameplay element with randomness has those. Why would you say it isn't? 

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