Rose / Imp - feedback

The imp feels almost unplayable now. Between large team size, time snare, goatify, goop, EMPeach,  rose's tracking bullets, more splash damage characters, and the imp's low damage out-put it feels almost impossible to do anything as the imp anymore. With low health and damage his only real advantage was his jumps and movement and with everything listed above it seems almost entirely too easy to shut down. Please save the imp, even if it means his mech takes a hit. He was my favorite zombie to play in the beta and I felt like he was a character you had to really learn and get good with in order to play him well. If I played an imp that knew what he was doing it was a good match and if I played an imp that didn't, he seemed like a freebie. The impkata and gravity grenade nerfs are completely understandable but why touch him so much? His low damage/health in the beta already seemed troublesome at times against the weaker version of rose but now he just can't even stand on his feet. ☹️ 

Rose on the other hand dominates now. She has great abilities, builds teleporters, does good damage with a good fire rate and her bullets track targets. Compared to the other default variants she seems almost unbeatable at times if played right. There's no reason NOT to play as her right now. Her damage and tracking should be toned down a tad... even the time spent in time snare seems a little long. I was excited to try her again after the buffs and had high expectations for her but I didn't think she would be THIS good. I've never felt like plants or zombies were so heavily lopsided before Rose. 

I think this game is GREAT, but I really wish that the imp was playable again. Rose invalidates so many of the zombies right now. I feel so overwhelmed as the imp to where I feel as though in almost any one on one situation I have to move and shoot practically perfectly to get the vanquish. 

Pretty sure that I mentioned this would happen as soon as I read she received buffs. Rose was already pretty good beforehand... people just sucked and didn't understand how to use her. 

It would figure that you'd take a liking to the beta's imp, WaxHalfling. He's this game's burly with rubber insoles for you... kinda glad he got nerfed now. :P

EXACTLY! Everything you just said!

Before I begin with my reply, I want to state that I have not yet had a chance to play the final game, as I am not in the EA early access program. My opinions are based on my impressions of the beta, and the text list of nerfs and buffs that the developers posted a while back.

In regards to the Imp, I definitely agree that they went too far with the nerfs. I was ok with the health reduction for the mech, as dealing with multiple mechs at the same time seemed a bit overwhelming / OP. A slight nerf to the range of impkata might have been ok, but other than that, I don't think the imp really needed any nerfs outside of the mech. He had sort of a glass cannon sort of feel, but now he just seems really weak.

In regards to Rose, I think the damage buff they gave to her was justified. Rose's damage output just seemed really lacking in the beta, and she had to work hard to get kills. She seemed like a pure support character, and while she is quite good in a support role, I think giving her a little more punch will allow her to be a more satisfying character. Without this, I don't know if she could be a viable character in modes outside of Gardens&Graveyards. As far as her other buffs go, I'll reserve judgement until I get my hands on the game. If at some point they do decide to nerf her, I they need to be sure not to go crazy with it and make her even worse than she was during the beta.

For future balance changes, I really hope that the developers make more modest adjustments. If they think a character is still OP after nerfing them, then they can go back and take a little more off the top, so to speak. The nerfing of the Imp is a classic case of developers making a kneejerk reaction due to a vocal segment of players that likely don't really understand the game.

All that said, I think most of the other nerfs/buffs for other characters sounded quite good and I think they did well overall. I'm really looking forward to playing the game next week 😃

I agree with you for the most part WaxHalfling, although I have not suffered much with the Imp, it does seem like that there is very little point in using him now. I think they nearly got it right with regards to balancing the Imp, but I am pretty sure the point with the Imp was low health, high damage and holding out for the mech and I think the nerf has caused that point to be lost.

Now as for the Rose... this needs addressing quickly! The character was buffed significantly since the beta and it is hampering my enjoyment of the multiplayer section of the game. PvZ GW has always had its OP characters and for the most part that has been fine, it always felt like there was a counter punch if you worked hard enough, but with the Rose I am not sure what the answer is unless it is nerfed. In a few matches I played last night, once people worked out how powerful the rose is you would end up with about 5 or 6 on each plant team. From that point onwards all you could do was try and take a ranged character like the Camo Ranger and snipe them before they saw you because once they did with their range, damage and homing abilities it was game over. It made making any progress on objectives nigh on impossible because you spent your whole time trying to stop the armada of roses from killing you from half way across the map. 

I would like to say that the game is good, very good in fact but it definitely needs the changes that WaxHalfling has suggested or the MP will become very bland, very quickly.

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@Doppelgadam wrote:

Before I begin with my reply, I want to state that I have not yet had a chance to play the final game, as I am not in the EA early access program. My opinions are based on my impressions of the beta, and the text list of nerfs and buffs that the developers posted a while back.

In regards to the Imp, I definitely agree that they went too far with the nerfs. I was ok with the health reduction for the mech, as dealing with multiple mechs at the same time seemed a bit overwhelming / OP. A slight nerf to the range of impkata might have been ok, but other than that, I don't think the imp really needed any nerfs outside of the mech. He had sort of a glass cannon sort of feel, but now he just seems really weak.

In regards to Rose, I think the damage buff they gave to her was justified. Rose's damage output just seemed really lacking in the beta, and she had to work hard to get kills. She seemed like a pure support character, and while she is quite good in a support role, I think giving her a little more punch will allow her to be a more satisfying character. Without this, I don't know if she could be a viable character in modes outside of Gardens&Graveyards. As far as her other buffs go, I'll reserve judgement until I get my hands on the game. If at some point they do decide to nerf her, I they need to be sure not to go crazy with it and make her even worse than she was during the beta.

For future balance changes, I really hope that the developers make more modest adjustments. If they think a character is still OP after nerfing them, then they can go back and take a little more off the top, so to speak. The nerfing of the Imp is a classic case of developers making a kneejerk reaction due to a vocal segment of players that likely don't really understand the game.

All that said, I think most of the other nerfs/buffs for other characters sounded quite good and I think they did well overall. I'm really looking forward to playing the game next week 😃

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Thing is Rose is doing more damage than most classes at all ranges, has homing shots, 2 AOE interrupts, and arguably the best escape move in the game.

MaxSterling, the only thing close about that comparison is the double jump. Imp has always had low damage and health and you have to play way safer. I was fine with imp being touched a tad, but the long kill times and low health make him seem almost unplayable. He does need to be better, especially in comparison to the other characters. I want the game to be as balanced as possible, I don't want there to be one specific character that people have to use in order to do well. 

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@WaxHalfling wrote:

MaxSterling, the only thing close about that comparison is the double jump. Imp has always had low damage and health and you have to play way safer. I was fine with imp being touched a tad, but the long kill times and low health make him seem almost unplayable. He does need to be better, especially in comparison to the other characters. I want the game to be as balanced as possible, I don't want there to be one specific character that people have to use in order to do well. 

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I agree with what you say about balance, but I find it hilarious coming from you of all people. You were notorious in Gotham City Impostors for abusing the loadout glitch with the burly that made you invincible... basically easy mode, which was more about what my GCI comment was in regards to in reference to you using the Imp... easy mode.

Well it's not really fair for my opinions on this game to be tainted by a game I played almost 3 years ago (give or take a couple games with friends where I pretty much never used that load-out). I've played plenty of games before and after that one and always push for balance. The imp without his abilities most definitely wasn't easy mode though :P. The mech maybe, but the imp itself was always a pretty fair fight for any character. It's almost embarrassing to get killed consistently by the imp now. I'm not saying I want the imp to go back to the beta imp where his abilities grant easy kills, I just want the whole roster to be playable again which the imp really isn't right now. I think nerfing rose is priority number 1, THEN a slight boost to the imp. I like the impkata and gravity grenade nerf, the mech nerf is fine, but I just want the low health/low damage imp to feel playable.

I suggest that Rose's damage go back to what it was in the beta she could still get kills but actually had to work for them.